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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Debunking the Myth that Next Gen Consoles are too weak

Teriol said:
vivster said:
freedquaker said: 

b) The amount of RAM (8 GB) is well beyond the main stream PC (4-6 GB) today, which had never happened. Most games are not even programmed to run on more than 3 GB, and this is the first time in history, where the console ports don't have to be downsized at all. In comparison, 1 GB was the mainstream RAM when the 7th Gen consoles arrived with only 1/2 RAM including the graphics, and 128 MB was the mainstream when PS2 arrived with 32 MB! Also today we have so much RAM on our PCs that the capacity increases came to a crawl.

c) 500 GB, although still may be not much for today's games, is relatively abundant compared to the debut with the 7th Gen. consoles.

d) The GPU seems to be archiles heel, at least with the XB1. However, it's unfair to the PS4 as it seems to be just fine with 1080p and up to 60 fps. We know that the graphics will improve over time, squeezing either better graphics or more stable performance. Given that most TVs today are not capable of producing resolutions greater than 1080p, there really is no point in putting a higher GPU than what PS4 has over the long run.

b) That's just simply wrong. 8GB has been the standard in gaming PCs for at least 2 years now. Also slow DDR3 is just unacceptable for an APU where CPU and GPU share the bandwidth. So on the X1 it's actually even worse than on a PC with dedicated graphics.

c) For most of the generation last gen consoles came with 500GB. They started much lower though. For this gen the 500GB are like the 60GB we got at the start of last generation.

d) Now that is complete bull. GPUs need to do a lot more than just putting pixels on the screen. There is so much more to it that there simply is no "just fine" when it comes to GPU power. Even PS4 struggles with 1080p and 60 fps. And if it manages it will have a lot of cutbacks like reduced effects, textures and AA. The PS4 is only half as strong as it actually should be to have a comfortable start into a generation. Currently it's not even close to high end.

The standard for games has been 1080p and 60fps for at least since the conception of the new console hardware but the manufacturers decided to cheap out on it. And no I don't think we will see a major improvement over the next 6 years. GPGPU has potential but it is no holy grail. It will be used on PCs as well and those not only have the GPGPU power but pure uncut rendering power as well, which both consoles lack. It's just the start of the generation and the consoles already put out only midrange level graphics.

this +10

Here is the OBJECTIVE AND UNBIASED TRUTH

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

STEAM SURVEY RESULTS:

Most Common Gamer PC (Not an average PC, which is way lower!):

OS Version :Windows 7 64 bit
System RAM :
8 GB
(Most Common)
6 GB (Average)
4 GB (Median)
Intel CPU Speeds :2.3 Ghz to 2.69 Ghz
Physical CPUs : 2 cpus

Video Card Description : Intel HD Graphics 4000
VRAM :1024 MB
Primary Display Resolution :1920 x 1080

Free Hard Drive Space : 250 GB to 499 GB

Total Hard Drive Space : 250 GB to 499 GB





Playstation 5 vs XBox Series Market Share Estimates

Regional Analysis  (only MS and Sony Consoles)
Europe     => XB1 : 23-24 % vs PS4 : 76-77%
N. America => XB1 :  49-52% vs PS4 : 48-51%
Global     => XB1 :  32-34% vs PS4 : 66-68%

Sales Estimations for 8th Generation Consoles

Next Gen Consoles Impressions and Estimates

Around the Network

this is just the beginning...



”The environment where PlayStation wins is best for this industry” (Jack Tretton, 2009)

freedquaker said:

so it's not a problem for PS4, but it IS a problem for 95% of the PCs out there

PC can use as much of the system ram as it wants.

freedquaker said:

Just take a look at the STEAM Survey (which is biased towards gamers, who have more than average RAM), you'll see that the average RAM is 6GB, and the Median RAM is 4 GB. SO PS4 has more than or equal to RAM as 88% of Steam Users, but probably 95% of all PC Users.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION NOW, YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING!

Steam survey is biased towards the lowest common denominator, that being people using Steam on their laptops for old games and 2d games, hence why onboard laptop graphics are amongst the highest in commonality, you aren't ignoring the actual details and what those component names actually mean, are you?

Intel G33/G31 Express
33.04%
Intel 82945G Express
15.90%
Mobile Intel 945GM Express
11.07%
Mobile Intel 945 Express
6.03%
+0.37%
These are all medocre laptop GPUs.

freedquaker said:

But you know what, PS4 has 8GB GDDR5

PS4 can only use 5GB of its ram for games.

freedquaker said:

Second, CPU is always a bottleneck when it comes to the AI and Physics, and this is where the parallelization & GPGPU come into play! So if developers want it, it's there to be utilized, otherwise, nobody seems to be using it. AI is mostly a software issue, we just don't have a real program routine to write genuine AI, instead of just faking it.

There is only so far a developer will cut in to the graphics pipeline to save on CPU time, it becomes a balancing act between freeing up CPU cycles and maintaining a solid framerate, that balancing act is already being hit by the older engines being use currently.

But we get it, you love the PS4, and you're willing to bend reality to defend it.



When comparing CPUs please keep in mind consoles are way more efficient than DirectX or OpenGL.

Mantle is a glimpse of the difference a low level API can make.  PS4 goes further.



My 8th gen collection

lucidium said:
freedquaker said:

so it's not a problem for PS4, but it IS a problem for 95% of the PCs out there

PC can use as much of the system ram as it wants.

But the average PC has 4 GB today, with 1-2 OS overhead, and the Game developers KNOW that. Also, 35+% of the PCs out there still operate on 32 bit OSes. Developers know that as well.

freedquaker said:

Just take a look at the STEAM Survey (which is biased towards gamers, who have more than average RAM), you'll see that the average RAM is 6GB, and the Median RAM is 4 GB. SO PS4 has more than or equal to RAM as 88% of Steam Users, but probably 95% of all PC Users.

PAY CLOSE ATTENTION NOW, YOU MAY LEARN SOMETHING!

Steam survey is biased towards the lowest common denominator, that being people using Steam on their laptops for old games and 2d games, hence why onboard laptop graphics are amongst the highest in commonality, you aren't ignoring the actual details and what those component names actually mean, are you?

Intel G33/G31 Express
33.04%
Intel 82945G Express
15.90%
Mobile Intel 945GM Express
11.07%
Mobile Intel 945 Express
6.03%
+0.37%
These are all medocre laptop GPUs.
=>Oh, I know all that, but did you also think ho many of those GPUs have better performance than PS4? Just make a quick calculation and compare the average GPU power to PS4 please! Also take into account the unoptimized driver and equipment etc...

freedquaker said:

But you know what, PS4 has 8GB GDDR5

PS4 can only use 5GB of its ram for games.

which is way more than the vast majority of PCs, even today, not to mention the most not created with this much RAM in mind. Oh also, it's a 10-16X leap, regardless of how you look at it, way more than it used to be!

freedquaker said:

Second, CPU is always a bottleneck when it comes to the AI and Physics, and this is where the parallelization & GPGPU come into play! So if developers want it, it's there to be utilized, otherwise, nobody seems to be using it. AI is mostly a software issue, we just don't have a real program routine to write genuine AI, instead of just faking it.

There is only so far a developer will cut in to the graphics pipeline to save on CPU time, it becomes a balancing act between freeing up CPU cycles and maintaining a solid framerate, that balancing act is already being hit by the older engines being use currently.

But we get it, you love the PS4, and you're willing to bend reality to defend it.

I am really not bending anything. I do believe that PS4 is easily matched and outperformed by a regular desktop and even a laptop today. What I am claiming is that, PS4 is not a weak console, and is actually much faster than all previous Playstations, relatively to the competition of the era.


In short, let me repeat, I believe some of the reaction is due to the misunderstanding...

PS4 is easily outperformed with a relatively easy to configure desktop or a laptop today, nobody denies that.

However, I am trying to explain that PS4 is not a weak console, and is actually much faster than all previous Playstations, relatively to the competition of their era.

In other words, PC was and will always be faster than the consoles. However, the power gap with PS4 is not greater but actually smaller compared to the earlier playstations. To see that, just compare the games of each generation (PC to PS), especially the first generation. Playstation had never been this capable



Playstation 5 vs XBox Series Market Share Estimates

Regional Analysis  (only MS and Sony Consoles)
Europe     => XB1 : 23-24 % vs PS4 : 76-77%
N. America => XB1 :  49-52% vs PS4 : 48-51%
Global     => XB1 :  32-34% vs PS4 : 66-68%

Sales Estimations for 8th Generation Consoles

Next Gen Consoles Impressions and Estimates

Around the Network

Yeah specs increased but to naked eye is simply more colorful.



lucidium said:
freedquaker said:

a) Those Consoles come with octo-core processors, which is well beyond the main stream pc with dual core. It's true that those cores have relatively poor single threaded performance but with the sufficient level of parallelism and low level calls, CPUs had never been this fast in relative terms (compared to PCs). So the CPU performance will never be an issue. Also keep in mind that the CPU performance improvements have slowed tremendously at the last decade.

Average gamer these days has a quad core or higher, and many have hyperthreading thus creating twice as many logical processors, take for example my 6 core cpu, it has 12 logical processors, the average PC cpu also has more L1 and L2 cache.

b) The amount of RAM (8 GB) is well beyond the main stream PC (4-6 GB) today, which had never happened. Most games are not even programmed to run on more than 3 GB, and this is the first time in history, where the console ports don't have to be downsized at all. In comparison, 1 GB was the mainstream RAM when the 7th Gen consoles arrived with only 1/2 RAM including the graphics, and 128 MB was the mainstream when PS2 arrived with 32 MB! Also today we have so much RAM on our PCs that the capacity increases came to a crawl.

Mainstream Pcs generally have 8GB of ram and at least 1GB ram for GPU, totalling 9GB of usable ram for the average PC, enthusiast pcs have much higher, mine for example has 64gb system ram and 6gb vram, PS4 has to share its ram between gpu, cpu and OS, with around 2-3gb reserved for the OS, developers generally get only about 5 to 5.5gb to use on actual games.

c) 500 GB, although still may be not much for today's games, is relatively abundant compared to the debut with the 7th Gen. consoles.

And relatively small to all but pre-2010 laptops.

d) The GPU seems to be archiles heel, at least with the XB1. However, it's unfair to the PS4 as it seems to be just fine with 1080p and up to 60 fps. We know that the graphics will improve over time, squeezing either better graphics or more stable performance. Given that most TVs today are not capable of producing resolutions greater than 1080p, there really is no point in putting a higher GPU than what PS4 has over the long run.

You went from trying to prove consoles arent weak to bashing the xbox one in the not-so-subtle way, good job.

e) PS4 employs a super fast GDDR5, equivalent to the PC tech, but just much more of it. Games, which are not designed with this in mind will not magically look better, but they will come in time. Couple this with many exciting technologies, none of which has been implemented yet, which are more likely to see on consoles than on the PC.

Most modern PC gpus are PCIE, and can handle way higher, had the Xbox One used 128mb esram  we wouldnt be having this discussion.

In short, PS4 is the most balanced machine out there for the long term, and is more than capable to serve as long as PS3 did. XB1, on the other hand, although similar, is crippled by its inefficient design, with respect to the RAM Bandwidth. If only XB1 had incorporated GDDR5 instead of DDR3 + ESRAM (or at least a DDR3+GDDR5 solution similar to PS3), ditching the Kinect, things would be much rosier for it now.

Steamboxes say hi, and all the Xbox one needed was 64mb, ot 128mb of esram and it would have been fine.

How you swang from defending "consoles" against being weak to defending the ps4 and pushing aside the Xbox One suggests to me that you werent really interested in debunking any myths but rather just wanted to talk about how the ps4 is better.

One question here Lucidium...where did you get those stats about average gamers and mainstream pc's from? Did you use steam stats?



Intel Core i7 3770K [3.5GHz]|MSI Big Bang Z77 Mpower|Corsair Vengeance DDR3-1866 2 x 4GB|MSI GeForce GTX 560 ti Twin Frozr 2|OCZ Vertex 4 128GB|Corsair HX750|Cooler Master CM 690II Advanced|

freedquaker said:

Most Common Gamer PC (Not an average PC, which is way lower!):

It is a chart based on *anyone* who submitted the survey, regardless of what they were running, there is NO filtration between "common gamer" and "average" PC as you keep trying to claim, but since it seems a little too hard for you to understand, here.



On the side of Lucidium on this thread but nice thread though, really interesting read from all users



                  

PC Specs: CPU: 7800X3D || GPU: Strix 4090 || RAM: 32GB DDR5 6000 || Main SSD: WD 2TB SN850

This might make some minds blow up, but its fun to game on either and best with both. True story.