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Forums - Microsoft - Devs increasingly expecting graphical parity between PS4 and Xbox One

lukeroux on 12 February 2014
FrontlineJaguar said:

ps4 gpu is better than xbox one gpu no denying but ps3 was powerful than xbox360 but still parity was achieved in gta v and games like forza horizon and halo 4 looked awesome on xbox 360. One of my friend who has worked on few aaa ips says that ps4 at launch had better tools to develop compared to xbox one the reason why most games ran on lower resolutions or frame rates. the upcoming sdk's are lot better. He further said xbox one is more complex than ps4 while developing and a developer does not wants to waste time creating both versions equal but 1st party developers will put time because they only need to develop for single platform. He showcased me many demo's running on ps4 and xbox one. In 1st demo he ran it on both machines spending equal time and result was 15% better performance on ps4. In 2nd demo cpu based demo where things were a little bit heavy towards cpu xbox one showcased a better result not by a very big margin only 8% better performance. In 3rd demo he basically spent a little bit more time optimizing for xbox one using the system properly and result was 1st demo running at same performance on both consoles in some cases it was about better on xbox one and in other on ps4. At last he was doing some things on xbox one that were really awesome and a ps4 demo which was also awesome. There is no denying at ps4 has more power on paper but if you dig deep in both systems you will find in some cases xbox one> ps4 and in ps4> xbox one. You guys need to stop bashing xbox one for small things that you even don't know. we all buy consoles for games not for specs. If you like 1 console you don't need to justify your purchase by bringing power differences same goes for xbox one.

You don't half talk shit man. No kidding a game runs better when it's optimized for Xbox One.



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FrontlineJaguar on 12 February 2014
lukeroux said:
FrontlineJaguar said:

ps4 gpu is better than xbox one gpu no denying but ps3 was powerful than xbox360 but still parity was achieved in gta v and games like forza horizon and halo 4 looked awesome on xbox 360. One of my friend who has worked on few aaa ips says that ps4 at launch had better tools to develop compared to xbox one the reason why most games ran on lower resolutions or frame rates. the upcoming sdk's are lot better. He further said xbox one is more complex than ps4 while developing and a developer does not wants to waste time creating both versions equal but 1st party developers will put time because they only need to develop for single platform. He showcased me many demo's running on ps4 and xbox one. In 1st demo he ran it on both machines spending equal time and result was 15% better performance on ps4. In 2nd demo cpu based demo where things were a little bit heavy towards cpu xbox one showcased a better result not by a very big margin only 8% better performance. In 3rd demo he basically spent a little bit more time optimizing for xbox one using the system properly and result was 1st demo running at same performance on both consoles in some cases it was about better on xbox one and in other on ps4. At last he was doing some things on xbox one that were really awesome and a ps4 demo which was also awesome. There is no denying at ps4 has more power on paper but if you dig deep in both systems you will find in some cases xbox one> ps4 and in ps4> xbox one. You guys need to stop bashing xbox one for small things that you even don't know. we all buy consoles for games not for specs. If you like 1 console you don't need to justify your purchase by bringing power differences same goes for xbox one.

You don't half talk shit man. No kidding a game runs better when it's optimized for Xbox One.


You can say that way but some demo's he showcased me ran better on xbox one without any dought. ps4 gpu is better without any dought but if you manage to do some things like gpgpu and balancing of things betwerrn cpu and gpu using esram properly you will definetely get parity between the 2 consoles. Don't forget ram structure in xbox one is similiar to ddr4 which will be coming very soon to pc. My friend has also worked on next directx but he never leaked details to me so I cannot tell you about that but he said keep an eye on next directx which might get announced at microsoft build.



FrontlineJaguar on 12 February 2014
mornelithe said:
Dark_Feanor said:
FlamingWeazel said:
Dark_Feanor said:
FlamingWeazel said:
No amount of PR, fairy dust id going to make up a 40-50% gpu advantage. These devs are just putting their PR hats on, as many devs said the opposite. But keep cherry picking, the proof is in the pudding, which we have seen big advantages for PS4.


You realy like to repeat yourself, don´t you?

You seems no know so much about the matter.

Please, I would like to know your hadware/software archtecture back ground and in which games are/were you envolved?

Hilarious coming from you. Please explain how they can Offset and 40% GPU compute advantage, I am waiting for yuor detaield explanation. i have to repeat myself because people like yuo are still in massive denial that magic fairy dust and tricks can make x1's gpu keep up.


What is 40% you realy like to talk about? Please, enlight us.

Whay is this importante? Why is this a unbreacable stand in the console market?

You realy like that number, I wonder why.

I already stated it, but I'll do so again.  The physical size of the esram on the die, is the same space Sony used to add GPU resources:

Xbox One

12 Active Compute Units (2 disabled), 1.31 Tflop maximum (10% currently reserved for Kinect functionality, which lowers this to 1.18 Tflop, however, Microsoft has either been rumored to or already has freed up that 10% for devs who don't plan on using Kinect, so 1.31 for all non-kinect games)

768 Shaders

48 Texture Mapping units

16 Render Output Units

2 Asynchronous Compute Engines with 16 Queues

PS4

18 Active Compute Units (2 disabled), 1.84 Tflop Maximum

1152 Shaders

72 Texture Mapping Units

32 Render Output Units

8 Asynchronous Compute engines with 64 Queues


Where did u got these specs can you post the link and has microsoft or xbox division confirmed these specs.



pokoko on 12 February 2014

It's not like a new SDK is going to make the eSRAM bigger, it's just going to make development less of a pain. That's good for everyone, actually, as it will decrease development time.

Developers will get better at using that eSRAM, I have no doubt. Will that mean parity on that front? I don't know. Only time will tell. My guess is that games that really push the envelope will still be a bit better on the PS4. How big of a deal that is depends on the person. I was just fine with the differences between the PS3 and 360, so it's probably going to be the same with the XO and PS4.



Darc Requiem on 12 February 2014
pokoko said:
It's not like a new SDK is going to make the eSRAM bigger, it's just going to make development less of a pain. That's good for everyone, actually, as it will decrease development time.

Developers will get better at using that eSRAM, I have no doubt. Will that mean parity on that front? I don't know. Only time will tell. My guess is that games that really push the envelope will still be a bit better on the PS4. How big of a deal that is depends on the person. I was just fine with the differences between the PS3 and 360, so it's probably going to be the same with the XO and PS4.


The PS3 and 360 situation was completely different animal. The PS4 and XBO have essentially the same architecture. The PS4 just has a more powerful version of that architecture. There isn't any amount of software tricks that circumvent that difference in power. At least with the PS3 and 360 each system had their own advantages. The 360 had the superior memory architecture and GPU. The PS4 had the Cell and the advantage of Blu-Ray Disc storage. The XBO, from a hardware standpoint is essentially a PS4 with an inferior GPU and memory architecture. 



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hinch on 12 February 2014

Parity with PC version? Dev talking to OXM (Official Xbox Magazine) about their game.. yeah, I wouldn't put too much into this. You can pretty much expect a politcally correct answers from Turtle Rock, to not upset Microsoft or any of the userbase/s.

Anyway hasn't this been the case for most multiplatform games since last generation. Third parties going for the lowest denominator/s first and working upwards. Its probably in their best interest to keep parity between console versions of the game - or at least keep it under wraps.

This time, the PS4 hold the advantage of being the easier platform to develop for, and port to. Xbox One being the harder platform to optimise for (thanks to it's more complex architecture). With the PC usually getting the same game as console versions, with more bells and whistles on top.

The difference in hardware however, cannot be offset. Sure, with better optimisation the Xbox One can get closer to PS4. Though, it won't reach the same performance for obvious reasons; considerably lower Texture/Pixel fillrate and overall memory bandwidth.



FrontlineJaguar on 12 February 2014
pokoko said:
It's not like a new SDK is going to make the eSRAM bigger, it's just going to make development less of a pain. That's good for everyone, actually, as it will decrease development time.

Developers will get better at using that eSRAM, I have no doubt. Will that mean parity on that front? I don't know. Only time will tell. My guess is that games that really push the envelope will still be a bit better on the PS4. How big of a deal that is depends on the person. I was just fine with the differences between the PS3 and 360, so it's probably going to be the same with the XO and PS4.


Developers right now feel pain touse esram because of poor tools of xbox one Microsoft needs to improve its tools to make games look equal on both consoles. you are saying developers are going to push ps4 no multiplatform developer will push ps4 graphics because he does not wants to dissappoint his fanbase on xbox. If 1st party developers are going to push ps4 graphics forward Xbox one 1st party developers are going to push forward xbox one. The difference between these 2 consoles is only big at launch with time difference will be less mark my words difference is not going to increase rather decrease.



Shinobi-san on 12 February 2014
Mr Puggsly said:
FlamingWeazel said:
No amount of PR, fairy dust id going to make up a 40-50% gpu advantage. These devs are just putting their PR hats on, as many devs said the opposite. But keep cherry picking, the proof is in the pudding, which we have seen big advantages for PS4.

Man, this GPU disparity keeps growing and growing. Just a matter of time before people claim PS4 has double the power.

The real takeaway from this is developers are learning how to better utilize the hardware.


The gpu disparity is about 30 - 35 %. Not sure where FlamingWeazel got 40 - 50%. Its always been 30 - 35%.

It will be very stupid for anyone to claim the PS4 has double the power...and if someone does then you should obviously be ignoring that poster :/

As for the gap I'd say its quite significant, considering that last gen PS3 and 360 were practically the same in real world performance. Although i suppose fans will spin it either way...some will say they cant see a difference between 720p and 1080p while others will say its like night and day.



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mornelithe on 12 February 2014
FrontlineJaguar said:
mornelithe said:
Dark_Feanor said:
FlamingWeazel said:
Dark_Feanor said:
FlamingWeazel said:
No amount of PR, fairy dust id going to make up a 40-50% gpu advantage. These devs are just putting their PR hats on, as many devs said the opposite. But keep cherry picking, the proof is in the pudding, which we have seen big advantages for PS4.


You realy like to repeat yourself, don´t you?

You seems no know so much about the matter.

Please, I would like to know your hadware/software archtecture back ground and in which games are/were you envolved?

Hilarious coming from you. Please explain how they can Offset and 40% GPU compute advantage, I am waiting for yuor detaield explanation. i have to repeat myself because people like yuo are still in massive denial that magic fairy dust and tricks can make x1's gpu keep up.


What is 40% you realy like to talk about? Please, enlight us.

Whay is this importante? Why is this a unbreacable stand in the console market?

You realy like that number, I wonder why.

I already stated it, but I'll do so again.  The physical size of the esram on the die, is the same space Sony used to add GPU resources:

Xbox One

12 Active Compute Units (2 disabled), 1.31 Tflop maximum (10% currently reserved for Kinect functionality, which lowers this to 1.18 Tflop, however, Microsoft has either been rumored to or already has freed up that 10% for devs who don't plan on using Kinect, so 1.31 for all non-kinect games)

768 Shaders

48 Texture Mapping units

16 Render Output Units

2 Asynchronous Compute Engines with 16 Queues

PS4

18 Active Compute Units (2 disabled), 1.84 Tflop Maximum

1152 Shaders

72 Texture Mapping Units

32 Render Output Units

8 Asynchronous Compute engines with 64 Queues


Where did u got these specs can you post the link and has microsoft or xbox division confirmed these specs.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7546/chipworks-confirms-xbox-one-soc-has-14-cus

Microsoft doesn't need to confirm specs that are viewable on the chip itself, they also haven't come out and denied that this teardown and those like it, aren't accurate.  Which, if nothing else, confirms the conclusions.  Otherwise, you know they'd be going after anyone making these claims with an army of lawyers.  That's how any company would react, mind you, to misinformation being advertised as fact.



Aerys on 12 February 2014
FrontlineJaguar said:
pokoko said:
It's not like a new SDK is going to make the eSRAM bigger, it's just going to make development less of a pain. That's good for everyone, actually, as it will decrease development time.

Developers will get better at using that eSRAM, I have no doubt. Will that mean parity on that front? I don't know. Only time will tell. My guess is that games that really push the envelope will still be a bit better on the PS4. How big of a deal that is depends on the person. I was just fine with the differences between the PS3 and 360, so it's probably going to be the same with the XO and PS4.


Developers right now feel pain touse esram because of poor tools of xbox one Microsoft needs to improve its tools to make games look equal on both consoles. you are saying developers are going to push ps4 no multiplatform developer will push ps4 graphics because he does not wants to dissappoint his fanbase on xbox. If 1st party developers are going to push ps4 graphics forward Xbox one 1st party developers are going to push forward xbox one. The difference between these 2 consoles is only big at launch with time difference will be less mark my words difference is not going to increase rather decrease.


Yess, it will be less mark like was the difference between PS2 and Xbox



Predictions for end of 2014 HW sales:

 PS4: 17m   XB1: 10m    WiiU: 10m   Vita: 10m