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Forums - Sony Discussion - Can Vita Outsell Sega's GameGear LTD?

Scisca said:
You seem to be on a mission, but no matter how much BS you put out, it won't change the fact that Vita will easily go past 11 mil and sell much more. Your talk about it being discontinued is lunacy. It's the second best selling console in Japan. We all know they no longer care about home consoles, so PS4 won't be a massive PS2-type success there and Sony just needs a handheld there. And it has got one that Japanese are buying and that gets more and more support from 3rd parties. Why would they wanna kill it? Only you might know.

The West is a problem, NA particularly, but I hope they can fix it with a big software push after they secure the PS4 dominance. The console will be cheap, memory cards will be cheap, they will have a chance of a second start. Sony can make a PS3-type turn if they want to.


Mission? No, I'm simply responding and debating my argument. Ad hominems do not justify your argument by claiming lunacy and b.s. If you considering indie support as strong 3rd party then your previous implications of my character would obviously be more suitable to describe you.

I don't know how to even respond to you. Your whole argument is based on wishful thinking and delusions of granduer. Sony can turn it around if they want to???? You in all seriousness just wrote that?Yes, that must be it. Sony executives are sitting there saying" Well guys, the vita is an abhorrent failure and draining money but we do not feel like selling a lot of games/hardware at this point, maybe in the future we will but until then lets burn some more cash".



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

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Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Scisca said:
You seem to be on a mission, but no matter how much BS you put out, it won't change the fact that Vita will easily go past 11 mil and sell much more. Your talk about it being discontinued is lunacy. It's the second best selling console in Japan. We all know they no longer care about home consoles, so PS4 won't be a massive PS2-type success there and Sony just needs a handheld there. And it has got one that Japanese are buying and that gets more and more support from 3rd parties. Why would they wanna kill it? Only you might know.

The West is a problem, NA particularly, but I hope they can fix it with a big software push after they secure the PS4 dominance. The console will be cheap, memory cards will be cheap, they will have a chance of a second start. Sony can make a PS3-type turn if they want to.


Mission? No, I'm simply responding and debating my argument. Ad hominems do not justify your argument by claiming lunacy and b.s. If you considering indie support as strong 3rd party then your previous implications of my character would obviously be more suitable to describe you.

I don't know how to even respond to you. Your whole argument is based on wishful thinking and delusions of granduer. Sony can turn it around if they want to???? You in all seriousness just wrote that?Yes, that must be it. Sony executives are sitting there saying" Well guys, the vita is an abhorrent failure and draining money but we do not feel like selling a lot of games/hardware at this point, maybe in the future we will but until then lets burn some more cash".


A pointless argument, one might add. I have never said anything about indies, so stop implying things on me and then calling me out on them (yeah, that's how low you just went, lol), but I've written quite a lot about Japan - the topic you seem to ignore, but is the jist of the matter and alone proves your claim absolutely wrong. Vita may stop selling at all in the West and still get past 11 mil.

Yes, that is exactly what is happening right now. You know why? There is this thing... What's it called? Aah! PS4! And it has the potential to dominate the market the next 6-8 years, but it won't happen on its own. It has the momentum now, but Sony needs to push PS4 and not give XO any slack - and that's exactly what's happening. All Western studios are working hard on PS4 games. And I have no idea where you're pulling the argument about burning the cash right now from. If anything, it prevents them from doing it right now. They have a choice on their hands - fight back with the Vita in the West now, but allowing XO to crawl back and maybe get a software advantage OR turn PS4 into almost a PS2 level monster, while letting Vita wait a bit more, until it gets cheaper, the memory cards get cheaper, the PS360 games (the biggest competition to Vita's games) stop selling, thus being less attractive to 3rd party devs, who don't want to make massive PS4-level budget games. It took time for the PS3 to take off, but it did. If Sony decides it wants to turn Vita into a success - it is still able to achieve that.

Believe it or not, but the second scenario is exactly what is happening. Vita support is cut to ensure the success of PS4 in the West. PS4 has to leave the XO in the dust now, while Vita in all honesty can wait a bit more, as it gets good support either way. Nothing that's a mega-bomb on the market, but enough to keep owners happy. I just hope they return to it, as this awesome piece of hardware deserves more love.



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

2012 Vita saw an exclusive Uncharted, Assassins Creed, Call of Duty, Fifa (since launch its only had redskins) as well as the likes of Little Big Planet and Gravity Rush.

2013 it saw Soul Sacrifice, inferior ports of Jak and Daxter and Sly Cooper then a large summer drought before Killzone 2 months before the PS4 launch and tearaway sent out to die.

Actually even in the West the 2014 software line up is better.

Football Manager marketed right could shift a lot of hardware. It actually works with the PC and Mac version and has full 3D match engine. 2 key things making it the definitive portable version and Football Manager is a huge series in Europe.

Tecmo-Koei stuff along with other Japanese translations again also makes a much more interesting 2014 lineup even in the West.

I don't think its as simple as year 1 vs year 2 decline was this. 2013 was so bad for the Vita that I think much more of a drop this year is unlikely.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

MikeRox said:

Tecmo-Koei stuff along with other Japanese translations again also makes a much more interesting 2014 lineup even in the West.

More interesting, but hardly hardware-shifting.  Those games are going to do little to nothing for Vita in the west other than possibly draw in a few NISA faithfuls and TK Family people.

If Vita gets the rumoured InFAMOUS or another title up to the calibre of Killzone in 2014, I think it'll easily match 2013 though.  Like you say, there really wasn't a great deal last year to keep the console chugging along.  If Vita 2000 & Vita TV release in the west this year, I can easily see it being up YoY in both regions.



Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Michael-5 said:

Your arguement is also hypothetical. You're expecting sales to drop 30% when they grew nearly 100% in their largest territory (Japan - 438k in 2011, 670k in 2012, 1,209k in 2013). Plus in Japan, there are a lot of great games releasing in 2014, so..... It's unfair to assume a WW drop.

Loose too much money? This is hypothertical because Sony has always supported their consoles, even after they were replaced (GT6 could have brought more revenue on the PS4)

As for FF sales, you're also wrong here. FF typically sells better or at least on par with Japan in North America. Crisis Core sold 150% better in North America then Japan, and Worldwide it sold nearly 300% as much.

----

FFX is going to be big for outside of Japan. FFXII will be big for every region. Soul Sacrifice Delta, Freedom Wars, Disgaea 4, Sword Art Online, etc will push Japanese system sales too.


I'm going on the basis of Dec launch date to the same sales week in Dec 12 and then comparing Dec 12 to December 13 which provides two full years of console sales in Japan. My numbers are not incorrect as they are giving full sales years. 

There is a difference between releasing a title late into a consoles life when there is an 80 mill plus userbase that will result in several million sales that will result in profit vs a dying handheld that is not a sigificant part of their business. They are not going to throw away money.

Only 2 FF's have sold more in N.A than JAP. The odds do not favour FFXHD making a significant impact.

I don't disagree with those games moving systems in Japan. I just do not believe it will be in a significant enough way and at most wee will see 1.5 million sold in Jap Dec13- Dec 14 while E.U and N.A become almost non existant which will lead to Sony stopping production by late 2015 allowing for the possibility of sales being less than gamegear.

With that logic WiiU would be dead by 2015 as well. Both the Vita and WiiU opened to great sales in their debut month/month, but then sudddenly fell. Vita grew from 2012-2013, end of story.

Your numbers give a bias to 2012 because you include PSV's launch (in 2011), and omit FFX week in 2013.

Only 2 FF's have sold more in NA over Japan? 4 of the 7 localized Final Fantasy's for PSP did better in NA then Japan (Crisis Core, FF1, FFII, and FF Tactics). Don't kid yourself.

You're arguement is extremely bias and heavily relies on Vita droping in Japan despite trends showing that Vita has sold more month over month for every month in 2012 (except June and September because Persona and Ys release in 2012 during those months).

Even without a major release from Sony, Vita will outsell the Game Gear, no problem. However it's very likely that Sony will release a God of War, Gran Turismo or a second Uncharted and that will guarentee it. You're arguement of development costs is also flawed because like Killzone, God of War can use the PS3 engine, and same for Uncharted and Gran Turismo. Development costs are low to make Vita games off existing engines.



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Scisca said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Scisca said:
You seem to be on a mission, but no matter how much BS you put out, it won't change the fact that Vita will easily go past 11 mil and sell much more. Your talk about it being discontinued is lunacy. It's the second best selling console in Japan. We all know they no longer care about home consoles, so PS4 won't be a massive PS2-type success there and Sony just needs a handheld there. And it has got one that Japanese are buying and that gets more and more support from 3rd parties. Why would they wanna kill it? Only you might know.

The West is a problem, NA particularly, but I hope they can fix it with a big software push after they secure the PS4 dominance. The console will be cheap, memory cards will be cheap, they will have a chance of a second start. Sony can make a PS3-type turn if they want to.


Mission? No, I'm simply responding and debating my argument. Ad hominems do not justify your argument by claiming lunacy and b.s. If you considering indie support as strong 3rd party then your previous implications of my character would obviously be more suitable to describe you.

I don't know how to even respond to you. Your whole argument is based on wishful thinking and delusions of granduer. Sony can turn it around if they want to???? You in all seriousness just wrote that?Yes, that must be it. Sony executives are sitting there saying" Well guys, the vita is an abhorrent failure and draining money but we do not feel like selling a lot of games/hardware at this point, maybe in the future we will but until then lets burn some more cash".


A pointless argument, one might add. I have never said anything about indies, so stop implying things on me and then calling me out on them (yeah, that's how low you just went, lol), but I've written quite a lot about Japan - the topic you seem to ignore, but is the jist of the matter and alone proves your claim absolutely wrong. Vita may stop selling at all in the West and still get past 11 mil.

Yes, that is exactly what is happening right now. You know why? There is this thing... What's it called? Aah! PS4! And it has the potential to dominate the market the next 6-8 years, but it won't happen on its own. It has the momentum now, but Sony needs to push PS4 and not give XO any slack - and that's exactly what's happening. All Western studios are working hard on PS4 games. And I have no idea where you're pulling the argument about burning the cash right now from. If anything, it prevents them from doing it right now. They have a choice on their hands - fight back with the Vita in the West now, but allowing XO to crawl back and maybe get a software advantage OR turn PS4 into almost a PS2 level monster, while letting Vita wait a bit more, until it gets cheaper, the memory cards get cheaper, the PS360 games (the biggest competition to Vita's games) stop selling, thus being less attractive to 3rd party devs, who don't want to make massive PS4-level budget games. It took time for the PS3 to take off, but it did. If Sony decides it wants to turn Vita into a success - it is still able to achieve that.

Believe it or not, but the second scenario is exactly what is happening. Vita support is cut to ensure the success of PS4 in the West. PS4 has to leave the XO in the dust now, while Vita in all honesty can wait a bit more, as it gets good support either way. Nothing that's a mega-bomb on the market, but enough to keep owners happy. I just hope they return to it, as this awesome piece of hardware deserves more love.

A pointless argument? Yes, because you are clairvoyant and can see the furture. That must be it? Anyways, If you look at the "large support" Sony is receiving next year, it is from indie developers, not major 3rd party studios and one could say in comparison to even the likes of the Wii U, Vita has seen very little support. Hence, that is why I said "if you are considering" not "you are". Reading the comment properly will save you from embarrasement in the future.

I haven't ignored Japan and you haven't really provided a very intelligent argument whatsoever. You acting as if your assumptions are fact, which they are not. We are all going off assumptions about the state of the Vita to make an educated guess as to what exactly the sales will be. I'm using data from 1st full year of Vita sales to 2nd full year of Vita sales. In Japan that is Dec 11- Dec 12, Dec 12 - 13. Which as I debated earlier with others only had a marginal increase of 7%. I am predicting at best it might see another 15% for Dec 13- Dec 14 (peak year) and significantly drop after that. They are not going to keep a system that is moving abysmal numbers in E.U & U.S (at current decline rates Vita will be lucky to see 700K combined for both this year) while it is only managing to move another million and change in Japan so early in it's lifespan (Sony as we know relies on software to make up for hardware losses). The software sales are terrible for the most part. It is a money pit that really is not worth further investment for Sony hence why we have not heard any major 1st party releases. 

PS4 will not do anything whatsoever for Vita support. There was a minor bump but that is all you are going to see. Regardless of price drops the majorty of 3rd party will not risk investing in a console that has not proven itself, which the Vita has not. It's dead in the water. Your more likely to see 3rd parties jump on the Wii U ( which probably wont happen) before they begin to heavily invest in the Vita again. I'm not trying to be rude but your whole argument is based on wishful thinking, not even educated guesses.When you are selling a system at a loss, without significant software sales, you are burning cash. It's not difficult to comprehend. 

Regardless of how it performs, games will still be released. Dreamcast managed it as others did. Vita is the Dreamcast of handhelds and will have a difficult time managing to pass the LTD sales of GameGear. This whole argument is based on plausibilities. In the age we live in consoles/handhelds do not gain new life several years after release. 360 was an exception but that was due to an add on. Vita could very well outsell GameGear, but as someone earlier pointed out (unless I misread) 13-14 mill would be the most likely LTD sales at the end of it's lifetime.



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

it will pass gamecube eventually.



Kresnik said:
MikeRox said:

Tecmo-Koei stuff along with other Japanese translations again also makes a much more interesting 2014 lineup even in the West.

More interesting, but hardly hardware-shifting.  Those games are going to do little to nothing for Vita in the west other than possibly draw in a few NISA faithfuls and TK Family people.


They won't shift huge numbers, but I know a few people on the fence that these games will probably help justify buying a Vita.

inFAMOUS right now will do nothing for Vita. As with KillZone, it's too close to a "big next gen" debut. Unless they sneakily chucked in a cross buy or something daft.



RIP Dad 25/11/51 - 13/12/13. You will be missed but never forgotten.

Michael-5 said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Michael-5 said:

Your arguement is also hypothetical. You're expecting sales to drop 30% when they grew nearly 100% in their largest territory (Japan - 438k in 2011, 670k in 2012, 1,209k in 2013). Plus in Japan, there are a lot of great games releasing in 2014, so..... It's unfair to assume a WW drop.

Loose too much money? This is hypothertical because Sony has always supported their consoles, even after they were replaced (GT6 could have brought more revenue on the PS4)

As for FF sales, you're also wrong here. FF typically sells better or at least on par with Japan in North America. Crisis Core sold 150% better in North America then Japan, and Worldwide it sold nearly 300% as much.

----

FFX is going to be big for outside of Japan. FFXII will be big for every region. Soul Sacrifice Delta, Freedom Wars, Disgaea 4, Sword Art Online, etc will push Japanese system sales too.


I'm going on the basis of Dec launch date to the same sales week in Dec 12 and then comparing Dec 12 to December 13 which provides two full years of console sales in Japan. My numbers are not incorrect as they are giving full sales years. 

There is a difference between releasing a title late into a consoles life when there is an 80 mill plus userbase that will result in several million sales that will result in profit vs a dying handheld that is not a sigificant part of their business. They are not going to throw away money.

Only 2 FF's have sold more in N.A than JAP. The odds do not favour FFXHD making a significant impact.

I don't disagree with those games moving systems in Japan. I just do not believe it will be in a significant enough way and at most wee will see 1.5 million sold in Jap Dec13- Dec 14 while E.U and N.A become almost non existant which will lead to Sony stopping production by late 2015 allowing for the possibility of sales being less than gamegear.

With that logic WiiU would be dead by 2015 as well. Both the Vita and WiiU opened to great sales in their debut month/month, but then sudddenly fell. Vita grew from 2012-2013, end of story.

Your numbers give a bias to 2012 because you include PSV's launch (in 2011), and omit FFX week in 2013.

Only 2 FF's have sold more in NA over Japan? 4 of the 7 localized Final Fantasy's for PSP did better in NA then Japan (Crisis Core, FF1, FFII, and FF Tactics). Don't kid yourself.

You're arguement is extremely bias and heavily relies on Vita droping in Japan despite trends showing that Vita has sold more month over month for every month in 2012 (except June and September because Persona and Ys release in 2012 during those months).

Even without a major release from Sony, Vita will outsell the Game Gear, no problem. However it's very likely that Sony will release a God of War, Gran Turismo or a second Uncharted and that will guarentee it. You're arguement of development costs is also flawed because like Killzone, God of War can use the PS3 engine, and same for Uncharted and Gran Turismo. Development costs are low to make Vita games off existing engines.

According to alot of analysts and "apparent" experts on this site ( I say that with a heavy amount of sarcasm) Wii U will be discontinued by 2015! Therefore the same logic can obviously be applied to VIta. 

You cannot claim my way of presenting numbers are biased but state that yours are not. If sales from  Dec 13th - Dec 14 have a significant increase (more than 15% YoY) then I will agree that the Japan argument is invalid. However, I do not beleive that if the current drops remain in E.U/N.A and with this year being the peak year for Japan, that Sony would continue production with such little sales which is why I created this thread about the possibility of PSVita being discontinued before sales reach 11 million. I will admit that I stand corrected on the FF N.A vs Japan, however, PSP had a larger install base in  N.A than Japan whereas it is the opposite this time around with PS Vita (24% less). With the lack of sales, I do not forsee the N.A release matching Japan sales.

Development costs argument is not flawed if the software has difficulty reaching 1 million units. Killzone has several hundred thousand at this point in sales. Do you believe it has turned a profit? Also the Vita needs strong software sales in order to make it profitable, which is hasn't. Their losses are more than likely continuing to produce each console due to this. Uncharted is Sony's (correct  me if I'm wrong) 2nd biggest selling franchise when you factor in sales per game and that only managed 1 million while being heavily bundled after. Gran Turismo would sell decently but with the amout of time polyphony takes to develop a game, would the sales be enough to give them a decent profit margin? 

The Vita could surprise everyone and end up with 15mill sales before being discontinued, however as stated in my argument, I do not beleive that it is out of left field to see it being discontinued before it manages 11 mill. Unless, Sony are willing to further burn money and spend an enormous amount in remarketing it, which I don't believe they will.



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"

jonathanalis said:
it will pass gamecube eventually.


At this point that is being very generous. Current sales nor upcoming game releases justify that amount.



" Rebellion Against Tyrants Is Obedience To God"