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Forums - Microsoft - Lets clear up the rubbish on this site surrounding Titanfall.

youarebadatgames said:
ratchet426 said:
 

Oh boy...where to begin?

Listen, I don't want to come off like a d***che, so I'll just politely say that your understanding of the MS Cloud service and what it will potentially add to the Titanfall gaming experience is, um, very very optimistic but not based in any known reality.

A server (any server, regardless of it's horsepower) that is accessed by your Xbox remotely via an Internet connection (even the world's fastest multi-gigabit fiber optic connection) is going to be orders of magnitude slower in sending data back and forth than what your console is capable of doing internally between its GPU/CPU and on-board DDR3 RAM.  That's just the way it is. 

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the MS cloud servers are going to perform any real-time AI or graphics processing in-game for Titanfall. Graphics and AI processing requires data I/O throughput between the GPU/CPU and memory that is easily 1000x times faster than any Internet connection is capable of providing now, and for the forseeable future.

To illustrate the difference in data speeds I'm talking about here, I'll use an analogy about reading a book:

Picking up a paperback copy of The Hobbit and reading it page by page is like Titanfall running on the Xbox: your brain and eyes are the Xbox "GPU/CPU" and the text in the book is the graphics data that you "read" and process.  You can read the book quite efficiently this way because your CPU (brain/eyes) can very quickly read the data (book text) because you have the book in front of you.

Now, suppose you want to offload, say 20% of your reading "processing" to the "cloud".  In this case the cloud is your town library, located 3 miles from your house. The cloud (library) also has a copy of The Hobbit.

In this cloud-processing scenario you pick up your local paperback copy of the book in your house and start reading normally, just like the first scenario. However, since you're now offloading 20% of your reading processing to the cloud you only read up to page #8, then you put down the book, get in your car, drive to the library, find The Hobbit on the shelf, turn to page 9, and read it and page 10. Then you put the book back on the shelf, get back in your car, drive home, and pick up your copy of The Hobbit and continue reading pages 11-18. Then, get back in your car for a trip to the library to read pages 19 and 20.  Etc, etc, etc, etc.

You can see how that second scenario would take you WAAAY longer to finish Bilbo's story, right? The "latency" of driving back and forth to the library just to read 2 out of every 10 pages is just not efficient.  As silly as my analogy is, the relative speed differences between the library commute vs. reading the book at your house is about the same as the difference between cloud processing via Internet connection vs. the Xbox GPU/CPU retrieving data from its 8Gb of DDR3 RAM.

And that, gentle readers, is why real-time AI and graphics processing in the cloud just ain't a reality.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiWdJxshWMM

So you get some laggy uneven light that except for irradiance maps uses quite a lot of bandwidth, while already using h.264 compression. The voxels variation uses 3 to 6 mbps, irradiance maps 0.16 to 1.7mbps, photons 16 to 43 mbps. The environments used arent very complex either,
and then there's the titan needed in the cloud.
http://graphics.cs.williams.edu/papers/CloudLight13/Crassin13Cloud.pdf (table 2)

MS has stated that any cloud features should be possible with 1.5 mbps bandwidth, just irradiance maps alone would exceed that.

It's not that noticeable with a light ball floating through a scene but it would be pretty weird when you turn your flash light on and off and the effects happen 3 frames later on average, or muzzle flashes from a gun.



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BMaker11 said:
Munkeh111 said:
selnor1983 said:

Things that are facts about Titanfall.

1. PC uses Xbox Live Cloud. And cannot be used without it. Originally the PC version was going to be gimped. Found HERE. But now its 100% confirmed the PC version will use Cloud for Processing the AI, some Physics among other things found HERE

2. Titanfall has a Campaign/Story. Just not your traditional Single player one. Its not an online shooter game remotely like COD or BF. Read HERE

3. Titanfalls NPC's are not Bots. Read HERE

 

Will update with any further wrong info going around VGC.


2. It is a campaign of a series of multiplayer games. That's still not really a campaign

3. They're bots. They're just gimped bots as far as I can tell



Precisely. Same with Battlefront

But at least with those you could play it through on your own



youarebadatgames said:
ratchet426 said:
michael_stutzer said:
Ashadian said:
michael_stutzer said:
I believe the cloud processing is and will be very beneficial for the future of Xbone. The people here dismissing the power of the cloud really doesn't understand the fact that the power difference between these consoles is huge. Without the power of the cloud the differences would be much bigger. You're getting a game with 12 people in it, some AI bots, lots of action. It wouldn't be possible on such a weak hardware otherwise.

So how have PC multiplayer games been absolutely amazing without the magical power of MS cloud processing???? What do you think servers are some new fangled invention made by microsoft and given a fancy description and called cloud processing???

Most PCs (and PS4) have the power required for those multiplayer games. Xbone doesn't have enough hardware power to play modern games. Hence the cloud processing is required to play those games. This game is 6vs6 with probably small-medium sized maps. If the cloud processing wasn't there the game would be 3vs3 without AI on even smaller maps.

The other platforms does not need cloud processing. Xbone needs it.

Oh boy...where to begin?

Listen, I don't want to come off like a d***che, so I'll just politely say that your understanding of the MS Cloud service and what it will potentially add to the Titanfall gaming experience is, um, very very optimistic but not based in any known reality.

A server (any server, regardless of it's horsepower) that is accessed by your Xbox remotely via an Internet connection (even the world's fastest multi-gigabit fiber optic connection) is going to be orders of magnitude slower in sending data back and forth than what your console is capable of doing internally between its GPU/CPU and on-board DDR3 RAM.  That's just the way it is. 

There is NO POSSIBLE WAY that the MS cloud servers are going to perform any real-time AI or graphics processing in-game for Titanfall. Graphics and AI processing requires data I/O throughput between the GPU/CPU and memory that is easily 1000x times faster than any Internet connection is capable of providing now, and for the forseeable future.

To illustrate the difference in data speeds I'm talking about here, I'll use an analogy about reading a book:

Picking up a paperback copy of The Hobbit and reading it page by page is like Titanfall running on the Xbox: your brain and eyes are the Xbox "GPU/CPU" and the text in the book is the graphics data that you "read" and process.  You can read the book quite efficiently this way because your CPU (brain/eyes) can very quickly read the data (book text) because you have the book in front of you.

Now, suppose you want to offload, say 20% of your reading "processing" to the "cloud".  In this case the cloud is your town library, located 3 miles from your house. The cloud (library) also has a copy of The Hobbit.

In this cloud-processing scenario you pick up your local paperback copy of the book in your house and start reading normally, just like the first scenario. However, since you're now offloading 20% of your reading processing to the cloud you only read up to page #8, then you put down the book, get in your car, drive to the library, find The Hobbit on the shelf, turn to page 9, and read it and page 10. Then you put the book back on the shelf, get back in your car, drive home, and pick up your copy of The Hobbit and continue reading pages 11-18. Then, get back in your car for a trip to the library to read pages 19 and 20.  Etc, etc, etc, etc.

You can see how that second scenario would take you WAAAY longer to finish Bilbo's story, right? The "latency" of driving back and forth to the library just to read 2 out of every 10 pages is just not efficient.  As silly as my analogy is, the relative speed differences between the library commute vs. reading the book at your house is about the same as the difference between cloud processing via Internet connection vs. the Xbox GPU/CPU retrieving data from its 8Gb of DDR3 RAM.

And that, gentle readers, is why real-time AI and graphics processing in the cloud just ain't a reality.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aiWdJxshWMM

Been saying the exact same thing for ages. Cloud won't help with any realtime calculations. Like beating ya head against a wall!

Why is Selnor banned? I miss reading his usual fantasy stuff



For the last few weeks I always write a reply, then read over it before posting it. 9 times out of 10 I just delete the reply because it's not worth it. A lot more people should do the same. 

 

OT: whens the last time MS even said cloud? Seems to me like MS is trying to distance itself somewhat from the whole cloud means 5 billion percent extra toasting ability. To me it seems more like the fans are keeping it alive now?

If every multiplayer match on titanfall has part of this "campaign" that sounds annoying as fuck. I'm not really keeping up with the game so just going by what the OP posted. I'd rather buy the game with as little knowledge about it as possible.

All NPC's are bots so TF AI are bots.



JerCotter7 said:

For the last few weeks I always write a reply, then read over it before posting it. 9 times out of 10 I just delete the reply because it's not worth it. A lot more people should do the same. 

 

OT: whens the last time MS even said cloud? Seems to me like MS is trying to distance itself somewhat from the whole cloud means 5 billion percent extra toasting ability. To me it seems more like the fans are keeping it alive now?

If every multiplayer match on titanfall has part of this "campaign" that sounds annoying as fuck. I'm not really keeping up with the game so just going by what the OP posted. I'd rather buy the game with as little knowledge about it as possible.

All NPC's are bots so TF AI are bots.


Microsoft has invested far more into cloud technology than Sony. There is no way they are turning their back on it. Just because Sony announced something doesn't mean MS doesn't have something up their sleeve for later.



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TimCliveroller said:
czecherychestnut said:
TimCliveroller said:

Dear contributor, it is really sad to see such a misinformed opinion. I hope for the sake / sanity of computer science that you do not have any aspirations towards graduating such a discipline. Your lack of complete understanding of concepts such as latency, bandwith or deferred processing gives me a pessimistic feel about technical skills of people stating facts on conversational panoramas. Please do not base your statements on fantasy literature as this tends (in the long run) to make individuals belive in their own imaginary science.

P.S. As a teacher, mentor and guide - I am always willing to help people in positions similar to yours. Feel free to contact me whenever you have questions or you are puzzled by computer science intricacies.


It would be much easier to believe you if you actually highlighted why ratchet426 is wrong rather than just climbing up on your mighty pedestal and tut-tutting his supposed inferior understanding. I'm sure many people on this forum including myself would love you to share your apparent wisdom and knowledge on this topic and save us from ignorance, so please tell us why exactly ratchet426 is wrong and provide us with the correct information, with supporting evidence if you would. 

Although I do not feel myself obliged to give anyone a detailed answer (until asked directly, in a respectful, knowledge seeking manner) I will tell you this: things do not change in the eyes of the ignorant even if coercion is the mother of all education. Maybe I make a fool of myself in the blind eyes of fools, but then again ... why should they deserve to be enlightened when all they seek is fantasy. I do however reject all forms of distasteful sarcasm.

As a sign of ultimate kindness I do give you a tip: (in such a multiplayer scenario) where is the place in which all important information is gathered and thus processed? where is the place where real decisions are made?


TimCliveroller-

Well I got to hand it to you. You managed to be a clueless, pompus @ss AND wildly entertaining at the same time! Bravo! (oh and hey, thanks for posting TWICE, genius)

So not only do you lay in with an illogical, condescending tone, when czech asks you to elaborate on your claims you just provide a non-response line of insane drivel. Oh, you don't feel "obliged" to give anyone a detailed answer. Well, then maybe you should consider not making asinine statements that you can't back up.

p.s. Thanks for the kind offer to assist with computer science "intricacies" -  but already have my Masters degree in Computer Science. How 'bout you?

 



S.T.A.G.E. said:
JerCotter7 said:

For the last few weeks I always write a reply, then read over it before posting it. 9 times out of 10 I just delete the reply because it's not worth it. A lot more people should do the same. 

 

OT: whens the last time MS even said cloud? Seems to me like MS is trying to distance itself somewhat from the whole cloud means 5 billion percent extra toasting ability. To me it seems more like the fans are keeping it alive now?

If every multiplayer match on titanfall has part of this "campaign" that sounds annoying as fuck. I'm not really keeping up with the game so just going by what the OP posted. I'd rather buy the game with as little knowledge about it as possible.

All NPC's are bots so TF AI are bots.


Microsoft has invested far more into cloud technology than Sony. There is no way they are turning their back on it. Just because Sony announced something doesn't mean MS doesn't have something up their sleeve for later.


Of course they will still invest in the cloud. Every major company has. But they seemed to have stopped using it as a PR stunt. I may just not be following whats happening close enough. I get bored of console war crap fairly quckly.



JerCotter7 said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
JerCotter7 said:

For the last few weeks I always write a reply, then read over it before posting it. 9 times out of 10 I just delete the reply because it's not worth it. A lot more people should do the same. 

 

OT: whens the last time MS even said cloud? Seems to me like MS is trying to distance itself somewhat from the whole cloud means 5 billion percent extra toasting ability. To me it seems more like the fans are keeping it alive now?

If every multiplayer match on titanfall has part of this "campaign" that sounds annoying as fuck. I'm not really keeping up with the game so just going by what the OP posted. I'd rather buy the game with as little knowledge about it as possible.

All NPC's are bots so TF AI are bots.


Microsoft has invested far more into cloud technology than Sony. There is no way they are turning their back on it. Just because Sony announced something doesn't mean MS doesn't have something up their sleeve for later.


Of course they will still invest in the cloud. Every major company has. But they seemed to have stopped using it as a PR stunt. I may just not be following whats happening close enough. I get bored of console war crap fairly quckly.


The whole Microsoft system designed around the Xbox One is designed around the cloud. We dont know exactly what we're going to get until they update it. All we know about Sony is their cloud is used for saving and streaming.



selnor1983 said:

Really?

Why did you leave this out?

"The Xbox group came back to us with a way for us to run all of these Titanfall dedicated servers and that lets us push games with more server CPU and higher bandwidth, which lets us have a bigger world, more physics, lots of AI, and potentially a lot more than that!"

http://www.respawn.com/news/lets-talk-about-the-xbox-live-cloud/

Quote 1:
The Xbox group came back to us with a way for us to run all of these Titanfall dedicated servers and that lets us push games with more server CPU and higher bandwidth, which lets us have a bigger world, more physics, lots of AI, and potentially a lot more than that!

Quote 2: 
Let me explain this simply: when companies talk about their cloud, all they are saying is that they have a huge amount of servers ready to run whatever you need them to run. That’s all.

Quote 3:
How is this different from other dedicated servers?

With the Xbox Live Cloud, we don’t have to worry about estimating how many servers we’ll need on launch day. We don’t have to find ISPs all over the globe and rent servers from each one. We don’t have to maintain the servers or copy new builds to every server. That lets us focus on things that make our game more fun. And best yet, Microsoft has datacenters all over the world, so everyone playing our game should have a consistent, low latency connection to their local datacenter.

Most importantly to us, Microsoft priced it so that it’s far more affordable than other hosting options – their goal here is to get more awesome games, not to nickel-and-dime developers. So because of this, dedicated servers are much more of a realistic option for developers who don’t want to make compromises on their player experience, and it opens up a lot more things that we can do in an online game.

---

Initially quote 1 looks like a they are implying that the cloud is powering AI and physic etc (which completely contradict quote 2 and 3), but if you look at the sentence more carefully you will note that it says the additional bandwidth allows for better physic, ai etc. This is not the same as saying the cloud is allowing additional processing capability to improve ai and physic, this is simply saying that higher bandwidth allows for more data to be sent and received. The processing power is still done locally by your PC/XB1/360 and not through the cloud.

This is actually a step back in some ways as ISP would no longer be able to host dedicated server and us Aussies as well as other people in isolated places will feel the pain.

Microsoft's cloud is essentially dedicated server made more robust and affordable, it definitely has its good points but imrpoving AI and Physic etc is not it, and this is something that your own source has confirmed.





mibuokami said:
selnor1983 said:

Really?

Why did you leave this out?

"The Xbox group came back to us with a way for us to run all of these Titanfall dedicated servers and that lets us push games with more server CPU and higher bandwidth, which lets us have a bigger world, more physics, lots of AI, and potentially a lot more than that!"

http://www.respawn.com/news/lets-talk-about-the-xbox-live-cloud/

Quote 1:
The Xbox group came back to us with a way for us to run all of these Titanfall dedicated servers and that lets us push games with more server CPU and higher bandwidth, which lets us have a bigger world, more physics, lots of AI, and potentially a lot more than that!

Quote 2: 
Let me explain this simply: when companies talk about their cloud, all they are saying is that they have a huge amount of servers ready to run whatever you need them to run. That’s all.

Quote 3:
How is this different from other dedicated servers?

With the Xbox Live Cloud, we don’t have to worry about estimating how many servers we’ll need on launch day. We don’t have to find ISPs all over the globe and rent servers from each one. We don’t have to maintain the servers or copy new builds to every server. That lets us focus on things that make our game more fun. And best yet, Microsoft has datacenters all over the world, so everyone playing our game should have a consistent, low latency connection to their local datacenter.

Most importantly to us, Microsoft priced it so that it’s far more affordable than other hosting options – their goal here is to get more awesome games, not to nickel-and-dime developers. So because of this, dedicated servers are much more of a realistic option for developers who don’t want to make compromises on their player experience, and it opens up a lot more things that we can do in an online game.

---

Initially quote 1 looks like a they are implying that the cloud is powering AI and physic etc (which completely contradict quote 2 and 3), but if you look at the sentence more carefully you will note that it says the additional bandwidth allows for better physic, ai etc. This is not the same as saying the cloud is allowing additional processing capability to improve ai and physic, this is simply saying that higher bandwidth allows for more data to be sent and received. The processing power is still done locally by your PC/XB1/360 and not through the cloud.

This is actually a step back in some ways as ISP would no longer be able to host dedicated server and us Aussies as well as other people in isolated places will feel the pain.

Microsoft's cloud is essentially dedicated server made more robust and affordable, it definitely has its good points but imrpoving AI and Physic etc is not it, and this is something that your own source has confirmed.


Yeah, after reading this latest statement I also have my doubts if it indeed does anything extra in the Cloud.

Look at Forza 5, which studies your driving style in order to create custom AI that behaves like you do. That’s totally different from what Titanfall uses it for, and it’s really cool! So it’s not accurate to say that the Xbox Live Cloud is simply a system for running dedicated servers – it can do a lot more than that!"

The Xbox Live Cloud lets us to do things in Titanfall that no player-hosted multiplayer game can do. That has allowed us to push the boundaries in online multiplayer and that’s awesome. We want to try new ideas and let the player do things they’ve never been able to do before! Over time, I expect that we’ll be using these servers to do a lot more than just dedicated servers.

So it seems the extra bandwidth from dedicated servers is just utilized to distribute more data between 12 clients. As it would indeed be a bit straining on a player hosted server to send data for 12+24+12 characters to 11 other clients over a slow upload connection. You can see it in GT5, when the host has a limited connection not everyone can see eachother in 16 player races. Which reveals that hit detection is done locally, as other people can see the cars that can't see eachother drive through eachother.