By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - If Obamacare fails, then what?

Somini said:
Why do Americans hate taking care of each other so much? That poor guy is trying to bring a great service to the people and he gets demonized for it!

"Obamacare" (Republicans are not the only ones using this name) :S

Except Americans don't hate taking care of each other. We (well many of us) hate enslaving each other. Americans have the same amount of social expenditure as every other first world nation, it just so happens that half of our expenditure is private and voluntary while the other OECD countries are almost entirely forced to take care of each-other by their governments. 

 

http://stats.oecd.org/Index.aspx?datasetcode=SOCX_AGG

Choose "net total." 



Around the Network
MDMAlliance said:
If 'Obamacare' fails, we will see an even bigger reform than we are trying now. Our health care system in the United States is horrible, and it's mostly because of the mix of private insurance and laws concerning health-care. Do you guys realize that one of the three big things the U.S. spends tax money on is Medicaid and Medicare. That doesn't even cover everyone either. Insurance doesn't really work if people aren't going to pay for it until they need it.


Something to consider.  The US government spends shit tons of Medicaid and Medicare despite not covering everyone.

Most hosptials lose money on Medicaid and Medicare.

 

Were we to go the route of full health insurance, the costs per person would go up.  Not down.

Medicare and Medicaid don't cost us a lot of money because they don't have proper barganing power, they cost a lot of money.... just because healthcare costs a lot of money... and we have a lot of factors that cause us to make much more use of healthcare.

Sure the government would have near infinite barganing power were we to have unniversal healthcare, but it sort of fucks us all over if they use that power to run hosptials out of buisness.



Disclaimer: I'm a conservative.

Get rid of the entire thing. Provide nationalized healthcare (not nationalized insurance...2 totally different things). Have a minimal deductible (or a % for certain things) associated with the healthcare (I feel some deductible is necessary to prevent clogging of the system from people going in when they really don't need to). Insurance companies will most definitely still exist. They will certainly be smaller, but they will exist to cover many of the things not covered by the nationalized healthcare.

Also associated with the nationalized healthcare needs to be some sort of regulation on pricing. I realize this will be the hard part, but we can't have companies charging our government 50 dollars for a band aid provided in the emergency room. I have an incredibly hard time believing a system like this will cost our government more than we are already spending. Many countries with nationalized healthcare are spending massively less than the US as it is. What I am saying is that a system like this should not require any additional taxes to be assessed. None. So if it ever does get up, and they insist they need to make a new tax for it, they are full of crap. They don't. Let me make that clear, a system like above, that would make everything so much simpler, and everybody so much happier, does not need more taxes.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

As always and as we watch the people get fucked. Congress doesnt even want this shit. So we pay for it when those asswipes make at least $70K a year to make shitty laws.



 

Nirvana_Nut85 said:

The United States at this point would be bankrupt if it adopted our Canadian health care policy.

Oh really? Because Canada spends like 1/2 as much money per citizen as does the US on healthcare.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Around the Network
Kasz216 said:
MDMAlliance said:
If 'Obamacare' fails, we will see an even bigger reform than we are trying now. Our health care system in the United States is horrible, and it's mostly because of the mix of private insurance and laws concerning health-care. Do you guys realize that one of the three big things the U.S. spends tax money on is Medicaid and Medicare. That doesn't even cover everyone either. Insurance doesn't really work if people aren't going to pay for it until they need it.


Something to consider.  The US government spends shit tons of Medicaid and Medicare despite not covering everyone.

Most hosptials lose money on Medicaid and Medicare.

 

Were we to go the route of full health insurance, the costs per person would go up.  Not down.

Medicare and Medicaid don't cost us a lot of money because they don't have proper barganing power, they cost a lot of money.... just because healthcare costs a lot of money... and we have a lot of factors that cause us to make much more use of healthcare.

Sure the government would have near infinite barganing power were we to have unniversal healthcare, but it sort of fucks us all over if they use that power to run hosptials out of buisness.

Not sure if you were just making a point off of what I said or if you were arguing against what I said, but I was using Medicare and Medicaid as an example of how expensive health-care has become. Also, the cost per person goes up initially. Theoretically it should go down as time goes on and more money flows to the insurance companies. Of course I am aware of other factors such as the elderly being constantly on life support, and a variety of issues regarding residency and legal issues, but by far the issue being addressed is the main culprit. I am writing this from my phone so I'll continue later.



If it fails? From what was expected it already failed



Baalzamon said:
Disclaimer: I'm a conservative.

Get rid of the entire thing. Provide nationalized healthcare (not nationalized insurance...2 totally different things). Have a minimal deductible (or a % for certain things) associated with the healthcare (I feel some deductible is necessary to prevent clogging of the system from people going in when they really don't need to). Insurance companies will most definitely still exist. They will certainly be smaller, but they will exist to cover many of the things not covered by the nationalized healthcare.

Also associated with the nationalized healthcare needs to be some sort of regulation on pricing. I realize this will be the hard part, but we can't have companies charging our government 50 dollars for a band aid provided in the emergency room. I have an incredibly hard time believing a system like this will cost our government more than we are already spending. Many countries with nationalized healthcare are spending massively less than the US as it is. What I am saying is that a system like this should not require any additional taxes to be assessed. None. So if it ever does get up, and they insist they need to make a new tax for it, they are full of crap. They don't. Let me make that clear, a system like above, that would make everything so much simpler, and everybody so much happier, does not need more taxes.


You're certainly not a fiscal libertarian/conservative if you promote the nationalization of the second largest service industry in the country. That's as socialist as it gets (the means of production is monopolized by government.) Anyway, there doesn't need to be taxation to harm people fiscally in this case, because an entire service industry will collapse. But taxes will increase because you'll have to pay off all of the private instititutions and making them public, that's not billions, but trillions of dollars that would have to be spent up front, unless you're promoting the theft of these institutions in addition to the mandate that no group shall provide healthcare but the government. 

I really don't understand how one can be a conservative in the modern American sense (which has strong roots in classical liberalism) and also promote the nationalization of any market. 



sc94597 said:
Baalzamon said:
Disclaimer: I'm a conservative.

Get rid of the entire thing. Provide nationalized healthcare (not nationalized insurance...2 totally different things). Have a minimal deductible (or a % for certain things) associated with the healthcare (I feel some deductible is necessary to prevent clogging of the system from people going in when they really don't need to). Insurance companies will most definitely still exist. They will certainly be smaller, but they will exist to cover many of the things not covered by the nationalized healthcare.

Also associated with the nationalized healthcare needs to be some sort of regulation on pricing. I realize this will be the hard part, but we can't have companies charging our government 50 dollars for a band aid provided in the emergency room. I have an incredibly hard time believing a system like this will cost our government more than we are already spending. Many countries with nationalized healthcare are spending massively less than the US as it is. What I am saying is that a system like this should not require any additional taxes to be assessed. None. So if it ever does get up, and they insist they need to make a new tax for it, they are full of crap. They don't. Let me make that clear, a system like above, that would make everything so much simpler, and everybody so much happier, does not need more taxes.

You're certainly not a fiscal libertarian/conservative if you promote the nationalization of the second largest service industry in the country. That's as socialist as it gets (the means of production is monopolized by government.) Anyway, there doesn't need to be taxation to harm people fiscally in this case, because an entire service industry will collapse. But taxes will increase because you'll have to pay off all of the private instititutions and making them public, that's not billions, but trillions of dollars that would have to be spent up front, unless you're promoting the theft of these institutions in addition to the mandate that no group shall provide healthcare but the government. 

I really don't understand how one can be a conservative in the modern American sense (which has strong roots in classical liberalism) and also promote the nationalization of any market. 

Financially, I am incredibly conservative but certainly have SOME liberal views relative to politics. I am all for the government providing healthcare. Just like I have nothing against gay marriage. That is why I would never be able to be elected as a Republican (nor do I vote Republican...or Democrat), haha...they would all say I'm not actually a Republican. But that is besides the point.

I also don't know if it would be necessary for the government to purchase every single hospital. The government provides a medicare system that (relatively) works pretty well. While I have a hard time with the government being the one to mandate pricing and whatnot...it is not necessary for them to own the companies.

I realize that ANY solution is going to have certain bad things for it. The reality is, however, that I feel a nationalized healthcare stands the best chance at being a good solution years down the road.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

MDMAlliance said:
Kasz216 said:


Something to consider.  The US government spends shit tons of Medicaid and Medicare despite not covering everyone.

Most hosptials lose money on Medicaid and Medicare.

 

Were we to go the route of full health insurance, the costs per person would go up.  Not down.

Medicare and Medicaid don't cost us a lot of money because they don't have proper barganing power, they cost a lot of money.... just because healthcare costs a lot of money... and we have a lot of factors that cause us to make much more use of healthcare.

Sure the government would have near infinite barganing power were we to have unniversal healthcare, but it sort of fucks us all over if they use that power to run hosptials out of buisness.

Not sure if you were just making a point off of what I said or if you were arguing against what I said, but I was using Medicare and Medicaid as an example of how expensive health-care has become. Also, the cost per person goes up initially. Theoretically it should go down as time goes on and more money flows to the insurance companies. Of course I am aware of other factors such as the elderly being constantly on life support, and a variety of issues regarding residency and legal issues, but by far the issue being addressed is the main culprit. I am writing this from my phone so I'll continue later.


Oh i just thought you were talking about cost cutting, as usually when people talk about just how expensive medicaid and medicare are they tend to make 1 of 2 points.

1) The government is really inefficent.

2) Healthcare is fucked up because bargaining is so split up.

 

The truth is, neither is true.  Well, government is really inefficient, but not in this particular case.

 

I think the difference between me and most people is that I disagree with captain kirk.  I do believe in the no-win scenario. 

 

Healthcare I believe is one of those situtations.  Free Market, Single Payer, everything in between.   I don't think any of it will actually fix healthcare costs.  At least not without drastically cutting research and adoption of new technology.

 

5%  of the people end up using 50% of our healthcare and healthcare costs.

 

At the end of the day, cutting down the number of people with multiple major health risks is the only way to REALLY get the costs down...

and THAT needs to be done via personal responsibility/lifestyle changes.

In otherwords, we're fucked.