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Forums - Politics Discussion - If Obamacare fails, then what?

thranx said:
Mr Khan said:

So you publicly fund research even with no promise that any of that research will be profitable, and phase in the fruits of those researches later when it's financially viable. The financial incentive need not come from the market for the research to occur. If it's really everyone else piggybacking off of American research, then build a global medical research fund.

There is no political problem that lacks a solution, you just have to muster the capital.


which is what is being done in the US. the rich are paying for life saving medical advances that the poor cant, these advances eventually help everyone. The other option is to let some arbitary person decide whats important and what isnt. How is that better?

Because the "persons" in this case (likely a panel of medical experts from all over the world administering how a centrally deposited research fund would be spent) will make sure that the advances are for the good of everyone from the start rather than merely the wealthy.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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Mr Khan said:
thranx said:
Mr Khan said:
 


which is what is being done in the US. the rich are paying for life saving medical advances that the poor cant, these advances eventually help everyone. The other option is to let some arbitary person decide whats important and what isnt. How is that better?

Because the "persons" in this case (likely a panel of medical experts from all over the world administering how a centrally deposited research fund would be spent) will make sure that the advances are for the good of everyone from the start rather than merely the wealthy.

In what world would that actually succeed?

It'd most likely just end up like how US road system fudning goes.   Each expert just trying to get money for his own country... leading to tons of shitty research projects.

 

Assuming they even get the money, i mean hell, ever pay attention to UN pledges/charity relief pledges that actually make it over.  Or even just how the EU can't enforce anything within just the EU.  Let alone a world wide system.



Kasz216 said:
Mr Khan said:

Because the "persons" in this case (likely a panel of medical experts from all over the world administering how a centrally deposited research fund would be spent) will make sure that the advances are for the good of everyone from the start rather than merely the wealthy.

In what world would that actually succeed?

It'd most likely just end up like how US road system fudning goes.   Each expert just trying to get money for his own country... leading to tons of shitty research projects.

Not really, because unlike roads, a medical innovation can be used anywhere, by anyone, especially if its an international non-profit fund. There would likely be tugs in different directions to try to focus research in an area where your country needs the help or where a firm in your country has comparative advantage, but since the point would be to focus on innovation for innovations sake (implementation being the matter of the countries' health systems individually) it would all work out in the end. Cold-war style "let's put money towards this idea and see where it goes even if it's not going to help soldiers in the field today" research and development, but for the purposes of peace.

The politics of it would be insanely difficult to implement, but neither can America sacrifice health care access for its citizens just to keep research going.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Baalzamon said:
sc94597 said:
Baalzamon said:
Disclaimer: I'm a conservative.

Get rid of the entire thing. Provide nationalized healthcare (not nationalized insurance...2 totally different things). Have a minimal deductible (or a % for certain things) associated with the healthcare (I feel some deductible is necessary to prevent clogging of the system from people going in when they really don't need to). Insurance companies will most definitely still exist. They will certainly be smaller, but they will exist to cover many of the things not covered by the nationalized healthcare.

Also associated with the nationalized healthcare needs to be some sort of regulation on pricing. I realize this will be the hard part, but we can't have companies charging our government 50 dollars for a band aid provided in the emergency room. I have an incredibly hard time believing a system like this will cost our government more than we are already spending. Many countries with nationalized healthcare are spending massively less than the US as it is. What I am saying is that a system like this should not require any additional taxes to be assessed. None. So if it ever does get up, and they insist they need to make a new tax for it, they are full of crap. They don't. Let me make that clear, a system like above, that would make everything so much simpler, and everybody so much happier, does not need more taxes.

You're certainly not a fiscal libertarian/conservative if you promote the nationalization of the second largest service industry in the country. That's as socialist as it gets (the means of production is monopolized by government.) Anyway, there doesn't need to be taxation to harm people fiscally in this case, because an entire service industry will collapse. But taxes will increase because you'll have to pay off all of the private instititutions and making them public, that's not billions, but trillions of dollars that would have to be spent up front, unless you're promoting the theft of these institutions in addition to the mandate that no group shall provide healthcare but the government. 

I really don't understand how one can be a conservative in the modern American sense (which has strong roots in classical liberalism) and also promote the nationalization of any market. 

 

I also don't know if it would be necessary for the government to purchase every single hospital. The government provides a medicare system that (relatively) works pretty well. While I have a hard time with the government being the one to mandate pricing and whatnot...it is not necessary for them to own the companies.

You went through the trouble to emphasize public "healthcare" vs. insurance. Medicare IS insurance. A public "healthcare" system means that the hospitals are public as well. 



Mr Khan said:
 

Not really, because unlike roads, a medical innovation can be used anywhere, by anyone, especially if its an international non-profit fund. There would likely be tugs in different directions to try to focus research in an area where your country needs the help or where a firm in your country has comparative advantage, but since the point would be to focus on innovation for innovations sake (implementation being the matter of the countries' health systems individually) it would all work out in the end. Cold-war style "let's put money towards this idea and see where it goes even if it's not going to help soldiers in the field today" research and development, but for the purposes of peace.

The politics of it would be insanely difficult to implement, but neither can America sacrifice health care access for its citizens just to keep research going.

Your ignoring the part where tons of funding goes to defunct research as political favors within countries to keep things going.

Better to fund this failed research in the US that isn't likely to ever work then to send that money over to China for a Chinese country.  This is a big enough problem in the current research community as scientists continue to get grants for discredited research, some even releasing massaged data just to get it. (Since this is their careers)

It's why private driven research tends to be a bit better then government funded.  Private research companies cut off projects that look to struggle, even ones that might have a chance of still being promising.

Throw in nationalistic pride and buisness contracts...


Sure it can.  Healthcare costs increases have actually slowly been reaching an equilibrium... and the kind of healthcare that those people will get access to... doesn't actually seem to help physical care at all.

Cold war funding was more or less specifically about getting an advantage over Russia, even when it looked like it wasn't, since there was a need to "prove" something.

Conflict and competition has always been a better motivator then cooperation.

Additionally, it's not like there is actually money to be spending.



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thranx said:

in my opion, it is worth it. let people who have the money pay for the advancements that will eventually help everyone. the other option is the slowing of medical advancements and we all get the same treatment, but worse cause the lack of advancements. or one where some people have better care than others, but those others are still better off due to the advancements made by those who can pay for it. So its we all suffer worse treatment, but equal, or we let some have better treatment, but with it they bring up the others as well. People do want to pay for it, those that have money, the problem is this is seen as unfair to those who can't. its not that the advancements aren't worth it, they just cant be given to everybody so they are not seen as equal. Maybe I am not explaining it very well. I'll try for an example, but dont bust my balls if its not good.

 

Lets say 2 people have a life threatning disease, 1 rich, 1 poor, the rich person can pay a lot of money to research and find a cure for their disease, but the poor man can not so they suffer and pass away, the rich person gets cured. Now that the rich person funded this research and cure, its cheaper for the next person. So although the first poor person did not benifit and was not treated the same, the next will, and so on and so on.

Lets say 2 people have a life threatning disease, 1 rich, 1 poor, the rich person is not allowed to have access to treatments that others cant have, so he doesn't fund the research to cure his ailment and instead is treated by the current methods. No advancement is made, but both people were treated equally.

So in one scenario people are treated equally, but at the sot of advancement, in the other the one with more resources gets better results, but those results filter down to help others.

 

Its a quick example but i think it works. Basically if there is no profit, no carrot, why will people put effort into it. Yes government will, and some people will, but I think rich people who value their lives will put the most effort and money into it, thus lifting more people to higher standards although not equal. (equaling out the rich and poor can be another thread :) )

I'm interested where you say let those who have the money pay for it. Our country is in an absolute immense amount of debt, so I'm not really too sure that I agree with your idea that we have the money. And our continual borrowing to pay for things that push our budget way too far such as this is in the end going to hurt economies across the world.



Money can't buy happiness. Just video games, which make me happy.

Probably better that it fails, it's not a good solution to a flawed healthcare system in America. If you want better healthcare that everyone can access, you need your own NHS style system. Socialised healthcare for those who can't afford or get insurance. Private insurance for those who can afford or want to be treated by a private company.

The discrimination against those with genetic diseases in your current system is just despicable! The fact around 40 million have no healthcare in the richest country on earth is even worse. The whole idea of healthcare services being some commodity or business is just so strange to me. To be honest, if the US can afford to run over 700 military bases abroad, it can surely give healthcare to those who need it.



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LOL at not discriminating against those with preexisting conditions. Do you understand how insurance works?

brb waiting till my house is on fire and then forcing the fire insurance company to sell me coverage......smh



the2real4mafol said:
 The fact around 40 million have no healthcare in the richest country on earth is even worse.


It's not really 40 million.  Not even close really.

 

The Census Bueru's 45 Million number was for people who didn't have health insurance at any given time in the year.  So if you didn't have health insurance for 3 days while your knew company insurance kicks in, your in that number.  So, keep that in mind with the number we're left with.

Also, since it's the CB that number includes the 10-15 Million Illegal Aliens in this country.   Since your So that's like 30-35 Million.  Illegal aliens can't get heath insurance afterall, and wouldn't be covered under any government plan.

12 Million or so, qualify for government programs like Medicaid, Medicare and SCHIP and remain uninsured.



So that leaves you about...  28-33 Million people... except, for that thing above, noting that it's any time of the year, and not the full year.

 

Studies that show how many people don't have health insurance for a full year?  Closer to 21 to 31 million.  Of which, the illegal aliens are going to all be in that category.  

So...  11 to 16 Million uninsured... assuming that NOBODY of the 12 million or so who qualify for government programs have gone without healthcare the whole year.  (Which is... HIGHLY unlikely,)


Then you consider the people who just don't want health insurance......

 

The actual number of people who want health insurance and can't get it... is pretty much definitly below ten million, and maybe even below 1 million.

The problem is nowhere as big as people think.



You could do what we Europeans do and just get universal healthcare ;)



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