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Forums - General Discussion - The Batman relevance argument.

S.T.A.G.E. said:
NYANKS said:

Superman to me is as boring as things get. His power levels change drastically based on whoever is writing, whatever was written first isn't necessarily what should be followed. There would be no plot for him at all if he was literally just like God, flying so fast around the earth that he turns back time and such.

Batman is human, and his status as a badass Everyman is the reason he is more popular. He has normal struggles, so we can relate.

A lot of writers consider Batman to be smarter, possibly in the top 5-10 of DC intelligence. He has literally had a story where he single-handedly beats the entire Justice League. He obviously cannot beat Superman in a bare hand fight, but Batman gets to play dirty while Superman never strikes first.

Basically, Batman is a better character. No matter what old stories about Nazis in the early days of Superman might say, he's really boring if he's invincible. So writers have tried to make it more canon that he's not as smart as Batman, on top of being weak to a rock , one that Batman has been shown to possess and keep on him many times.

His relevance is what you choose to believe. In the new DC Batman is a genius (as always really), and Superman gets nerfed, because writing a story for God is boring.


Its not that writing for a god is boring, the question for Superman always is, how do you create a fall for a man who is a basically a god? DC has found so many ways to hurt superman and even tried to kill him off with sun poisoning. He just keeps coming back. We're in a time period where no one likes the good two shoes, but in the 70's and 80's Superman would've been considered much cooler than Batman. In the 90's peoples mentalities changed and they started liking anti-heroes like Wolverine and Spawn. Even Cyborg, himself, could potentially create greater wonders than the tech Batman has since he's considered to be a more advanced inventor than his father. Wonder Woman can use the lasso of truth to interrogate people, Flash to bend time and change the course of history if he wanted to. Really...it just goes on and on.

So, then isn't this completely subjective?

DC has been trending toward making Superman not super intelligent.  Batman has only gotten more intelligent than before if anything.  His power lies in being a peak human (sometimes a metahuman) who is so intelligent and intuituve that he can predict what all the pawns around him will do in advance.  He's got the Batman Gambit named after him lol.  And last I checked, a tactician is often more important than the individual warriors in a fighting unit.  Superman may be exempt because he can usually just punch the story to a conclusion, but I think it applies to many of the lesser members of the league.



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NYANKS said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
NYANKS said:

Superman to me is as boring as things get. His power levels change drastically based on whoever is writing, whatever was written first isn't necessarily what should be followed. There would be no plot for him at all if he was literally just like God, flying so fast around the earth that he turns back time and such.

Batman is human, and his status as a badass Everyman is the reason he is more popular. He has normal struggles, so we can relate.

A lot of writers consider Batman to be smarter, possibly in the top 5-10 of DC intelligence. He has literally had a story where he single-handedly beats the entire Justice League. He obviously cannot beat Superman in a bare hand fight, but Batman gets to play dirty while Superman never strikes first.

Basically, Batman is a better character. No matter what old stories about Nazis in the early days of Superman might say, he's really boring if he's invincible. So writers have tried to make it more canon that he's not as smart as Batman, on top of being weak to a rock , one that Batman has been shown to possess and keep on him many times.

His relevance is what you choose to believe. In the new DC Batman is a genius (as always really), and Superman gets nerfed, because writing a story for God is boring.


Its not that writing for a god is boring, the question for Superman always is, how do you create a fall for a man who is a basically a god? DC has found so many ways to hurt superman and even tried to kill him off with sun poisoning. He just keeps coming back. We're in a time period where no one likes the good two shoes, but in the 70's and 80's Superman would've been considered much cooler than Batman. In the 90's peoples mentalities changed and they started liking anti-heroes like Wolverine and Spawn. Even Cyborg, himself, could potentially create greater wonders than the tech Batman has since he's considered to be a more advanced inventor than his father. Wonder Woman can use the lasso of truth to interrogate people, Flash to bend time and change the course of history if he wanted to. Really...it just goes on and on.

So, then isn't this completely subjective?

DC has been trending toward making Superman not super intelligent.  Batman has only gotten more intelligent than before if anything.  His power lies in being a peak human (sometimes a metahuman) who is so intelligent and intuituve that he can predict what all the pawns around him will do in advance.  He's got the Batman Gambit named after him lol.  And last I checked, a tactician is often more important than the individual warriors in a fighting unit.  Superman may be exempt because he can usually just punch the story to a conclusion, but I think it applies to many of the lesser members of the league.


LOL its funny, I just stated the powers of the Justice League though. Any of them could come up with tactics. Wonder Woman is basically the comic book version of Athena. She and Aquaman could lead their people into war at any moment because they are leaders and were always raised to be. I am sure they know battle tactics and are used to fighting superhuman beings all the time. Yes, Batman created tactics for getting rid of the Justice League because he knew he had to just incase things got out of hand. If Superman wanted to he could, but he doesn't like to think about the worst case scenario with the people he calls friends hence why he wasn't dumb, found out and confronted Batman. He got Batman on the moral angle because Superman came up with a plan to kill them all it wouldnt really need much planning like Batman's would, which would take weeks to months of tactical planning. Again, even though Superman could probably create the technology himself after studying the work of his ancestors and talking to holograms with them he understands his potential to create and do things. For the sake of story people like Lex Luthor need to exist to balance out the story of Superman because essentially superman needs no one. As I said before, Lex Luthor spent years trying to figure out what makes superman tick. Until he got Supermans powers for a short period of time he never realized that you really don't need to think so much, you kind of at at peace with all of the power around you.



S.T.A.G.E. said:
NYANKS said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
NYANKS said:

Superman to me is as boring as things get. His power levels change drastically based on whoever is writing, whatever was written first isn't necessarily what should be followed. There would be no plot for him at all if he was literally just like God, flying so fast around the earth that he turns back time and such.

Batman is human, and his status as a badass Everyman is the reason he is more popular. He has normal struggles, so we can relate.

A lot of writers consider Batman to be smarter, possibly in the top 5-10 of DC intelligence. He has literally had a story where he single-handedly beats the entire Justice League. He obviously cannot beat Superman in a bare hand fight, but Batman gets to play dirty while Superman never strikes first.

Basically, Batman is a better character. No matter what old stories about Nazis in the early days of Superman might say, he's really boring if he's invincible. So writers have tried to make it more canon that he's not as smart as Batman, on top of being weak to a rock , one that Batman has been shown to possess and keep on him many times.

His relevance is what you choose to believe. In the new DC Batman is a genius (as always really), and Superman gets nerfed, because writing a story for God is boring.


Its not that writing for a god is boring, the question for Superman always is, how do you create a fall for a man who is a basically a god? DC has found so many ways to hurt superman and even tried to kill him off with sun poisoning. He just keeps coming back. We're in a time period where no one likes the good two shoes, but in the 70's and 80's Superman would've been considered much cooler than Batman. In the 90's peoples mentalities changed and they started liking anti-heroes like Wolverine and Spawn. Even Cyborg, himself, could potentially create greater wonders than the tech Batman has since he's considered to be a more advanced inventor than his father. Wonder Woman can use the lasso of truth to interrogate people, Flash to bend time and change the course of history if he wanted to. Really...it just goes on and on.

So, then isn't this completely subjective?

DC has been trending toward making Superman not super intelligent.  Batman has only gotten more intelligent than before if anything.  His power lies in being a peak human (sometimes a metahuman) who is so intelligent and intuituve that he can predict what all the pawns around him will do in advance.  He's got the Batman Gambit named after him lol.  And last I checked, a tactician is often more important than the individual warriors in a fighting unit.  Superman may be exempt because he can usually just punch the story to a conclusion, but I think it applies to many of the lesser members of the league.


LOL its funny, I just stated the powers of the Justice League though. Any of them could come up with tactics. Wonder Woman is basically the comic book version of Athena. She and Aquaman could lead their people into war at any moment because they are leaders and were always raised to be. I am sure they know battle tactics and are used to fighting superhuman beings all the time. Yes, Batman created tactics for getting rid of the Justice League because he knew he had to just incase things got out of hand. If Superman wanted to he could, but he doesn't like to think about the worst case scenario with the people he calls friends hence why he wasn't dumb, found out and confronted Batman. He got Batman on the moral angle because Superman came up with a plan to kill them all it wouldnt really need much planning like Batman's would, which would take weeks to months of tactical planning. Again, even though Superman could probably create the technology himself after studying the work of his ancestors and talking to holograms with them he understands his potential to create and do things. For the sake of story people like Lex Luthor need to exist to balance out the story of Superman because essentially superman needs no one. As I said before, Lex Luthor spent years trying to figure out what makes superman tick. Until he got Supermans powers for a short period of time he never realized that you really don't need to think so much, you kind of at at peace with all of the power around you.

You seem hell bent on proving that Superman is stronger.  He is, we all know this.  But everything depends on who's writing.  No one thinks of Superman as super intelligent any more, because for a lot of people he isn't.  No one in the JL show and many comics is smarter than Batman, not recently at least.  Leading people and being smarter are two different things.  You can find a comic book written at some time that would contradict many of the things you think about any hero.  No longer can they come up with tactics as elaborate or far reaching than Batman.  Wonder Woman's lasso is woefully inadequate in many situations, and Batman has been deemed fit to wear at least two of the Lantern rings.  That was pretty scary.



Go read three comics, or watch the Two movies based on them(3 comics, 2 movies are based on 2 of the 3): Dark Knight Returns, Hush and JLA: Tower of Babel(Justice League Doom was the movie). Then you'll see why Batman is the most dangerous hero ever.



NYANKS said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:


LOL its funny, I just stated the powers of the Justice League though. Any of them could come up with tactics. Wonder Woman is basically the comic book version of Athena. She and Aquaman could lead their people into war at any moment because they are leaders and were always raised to be. I am sure they know battle tactics and are used to fighting superhuman beings all the time. Yes, Batman created tactics for getting rid of the Justice League because he knew he had to just incase things got out of hand. If Superman wanted to he could, but he doesn't like to think about the worst case scenario with the people he calls friends hence why he wasn't dumb, found out and confronted Batman. He got Batman on the moral angle because Superman came up with a plan to kill them all it wouldnt really need much planning like Batman's would, which would take weeks to months of tactical planning. Again, even though Superman could probably create the technology himself after studying the work of his ancestors and talking to holograms with them he understands his potential to create and do things. For the sake of story people like Lex Luthor need to exist to balance out the story of Superman because essentially superman needs no one. As I said before, Lex Luthor spent years trying to figure out what makes superman tick. Until he got Supermans powers for a short period of time he never realized that you really don't need to think so much, you kind of at at peace with all of the power around you.

You seem hell bent on proving that Superman is stronger.  He is, we all know this.  But everything depends on who's writing.  No one thinks of Superman as super intelligent any more, because for a lot of people he isn't.  No one in the JL show and many comics is smarter than Batman, not recently at least.  Leading people and being smarter are two different things.  You can find a comic book written at some time that would contradict many of the things you think about any hero.  No longer can they come up with tactics as elaborate or far reaching than Batman.  Wonder Woman's lasso is woefully inadequate in many situations, and Batman has been deemed fit to wear at least two of the Lantern rings.  That was pretty scary.


Its so true that it always comes down to the writer and I've never disputed that. I mean, the Flash is a forensics scientist and they've turned him into a joke character. Even though Aquaman is very powerful, he could be more notable if the writing matched his true potential. Supermans father could put Lex Luthor to shame...and Luthor is smarter than Batman. He got more ways to kill batman than batman would have if he fought Superman. Didn't the guy become president as well? WTF? Why does everyone talk about how smart Batman is when theres smarter people out there.



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S.T.A.G.E. said:
NYANKS said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
NYANKS said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
NYANKS said:

Superman to me is as boring as things get. His power levels change drastically based on whoever is writing, whatever was written first isn't necessarily what should be followed. There would be no plot for him at all if he was literally just like God, flying so fast around the earth that he turns back time and such.

Batman is human, and his status as a badass Everyman is the reason he is more popular. He has normal struggles, so we can relate.

A lot of writers consider Batman to be smarter, possibly in the top 5-10 of DC intelligence. He has literally had a story where he single-handedly beats the entire Justice League. He obviously cannot beat Superman in a bare hand fight, but Batman gets to play dirty while Superman never strikes first.

Basically, Batman is a better character. No matter what old stories about Nazis in the early days of Superman might say, he's really boring if he's invincible. So writers have tried to make it more canon that he's not as smart as Batman, on top of being weak to a rock , one that Batman has been shown to possess and keep on him many times.

His relevance is what you choose to believe. In the new DC Batman is a genius (as always really), and Superman gets nerfed, because writing a story for God is boring.


Its not that writing for a god is boring, the question for Superman always is, how do you create a fall for a man who is a basically a god? DC has found so many ways to hurt superman and even tried to kill him off with sun poisoning. He just keeps coming back. We're in a time period where no one likes the good two shoes, but in the 70's and 80's Superman would've been considered much cooler than Batman. In the 90's peoples mentalities changed and they started liking anti-heroes like Wolverine and Spawn. Even Cyborg, himself, could potentially create greater wonders than the tech Batman has since he's considered to be a more advanced inventor than his father. Wonder Woman can use the lasso of truth to interrogate people, Flash to bend time and change the course of history if he wanted to. Really...it just goes on and on.

So, then isn't this completely subjective?

DC has been trending toward making Superman not super intelligent.  Batman has only gotten more intelligent than before if anything.  His power lies in being a peak human (sometimes a metahuman) who is so intelligent and intuituve that he can predict what all the pawns around him will do in advance.  He's got the Batman Gambit named after him lol.  And last I checked, a tactician is often more important than the individual warriors in a fighting unit.  Superman may be exempt because he can usually just punch the story to a conclusion, but I think it applies to many of the lesser members of the league.


LOL its funny, I just stated the powers of the Justice League though. Any of them could come up with tactics. Wonder Woman is basically the comic book version of Athena. She and Aquaman could lead their people into war at any moment because they are leaders and were always raised to be. I am sure they know battle tactics and are used to fighting superhuman beings all the time. Yes, Batman created tactics for getting rid of the Justice League because he knew he had to just incase things got out of hand. If Superman wanted to he could, but he doesn't like to think about the worst case scenario with the people he calls friends hence why he wasn't dumb, found out and confronted Batman. He got Batman on the moral angle because Superman came up with a plan to kill them all it wouldnt really need much planning like Batman's would, which would take weeks to months of tactical planning. Again, even though Superman could probably create the technology himself after studying the work of his ancestors and talking to holograms with them he understands his potential to create and do things. For the sake of story people like Lex Luthor need to exist to balance out the story of Superman because essentially superman needs no one. As I said before, Lex Luthor spent years trying to figure out what makes superman tick. Until he got Supermans powers for a short period of time he never realized that you really don't need to think so much, you kind of at at peace with all of the power around you.

You seem hell bent on proving that Superman is stronger.  He is, we all know this.  But everything depends on who's writing.  No one thinks of Superman as super intelligent any more, because for a lot of people he isn't.  No one in the JL show and many comics is smarter than Batman, not recently at least.  Leading people and being smarter are two different things.  You can find a comic book written at some time that would contradict many of the things you think about any hero.  No longer can they come up with tactics as elaborate or far reaching than Batman.  Wonder Woman's lasso is woefully inadequate in many situations, and Batman has been deemed fit to wear at least two of the Lantern rings.  That was pretty scary.


Its so true that it always comes down to the writer and I've never disputed that. I mean, the Flash is a forensics scientist and they've turned him into a joke character.

Exactly.  Not to mention that in some comics the sheer power of the Speed Force he can communicate with can allow him to time travel and do Superman level crap.  Marvel's pretty bad too, it's just hard to gauge how strong characters are when they keep changing all the time.  Manga is that way too, try and figure out who wins in Superman vs. Goku.  That shit cray.  There's an hour long youtube about that one, pretty informative, they try to calculate exactly HOW strong they both are and you realize it's almost impossible, so they just estimated it lol



NYANKS said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
NYANKS said:

 


Its so true that it always comes down to the writer and I've never disputed that. I mean, the Flash is a forensics scientist and they've turned him into a joke character.

Exactly.  Not to mention that in some comics the sheer power of the Speed Force he can communicate with can allow him to time travel and do Superman level crap.  Marvel's pretty bad too, it's just hard to gauge how strong characters are when they keep changing all the time.  Manga is that way too, try and figure out who wins in Superman vs. Goku.  That shit cray.  There's an hour long youtube about that one, pretty informative, they try to calculate exactly HOW strong they both are and you realize it's almost impossible, so they just estimated it lol


Superman can lift the earth, which means he could snap Goku's neck. LOL



S.T.A.G.E. said:
NYANKS said:
S.T.A.G.E. said:
NYANKS said:

 


Its so true that it always comes down to the writer and I've never disputed that. I mean, the Flash is a forensics scientist and they've turned him into a joke character.

Exactly.  Not to mention that in some comics the sheer power of the Speed Force he can communicate with can allow him to time travel and do Superman level crap.  Marvel's pretty bad too, it's just hard to gauge how strong characters are when they keep changing all the time.  Manga is that way too, try and figure out who wins in Superman vs. Goku.  That shit cray.  There's an hour long youtube about that one, pretty informative, they try to calculate exactly HOW strong they both are and you realize it's almost impossible, so they just estimated it lol


Superman can lift the earth, which means he could snap Goku's neck. LOL

Superman does win, but what's insane is that both of their power levels are way higher (depending on the comic) than lifting the earth.  They're both Gods, but I guess Superman is god +1. 

And for the record, Batman is my favorite comic character lol.  I will always believe that he can breathe in space without help and beat Jesus at wine making.  He's just that good, just needs some prep time.  lmao



S.T.A.G.E. said:

So a bunch of my friends are sitting down eating at a diner and they barely know very much about comic book characters, but we get into it. I, myself, have very decent knowledge of comics which I believe is a little bit better than my friends because I used to read comics as a child and I've seen the JLA and everything and know the characters powers. They just know that Batman is f'n awesome. I agree, he's the best of human potential but his power is just being marketed to them, not what has been proven. The JLA technically doesn't need Batman. Batmans only true role is playing as a tactician. There were like eight of them and they even got the waitress to argue their point with me that Batman can kick Supermans ass. I just said, wow.....you watch too many movies (LOL). Most of my friends off the net aren't very nerdy unless you're talking anime, thats the extent it goes to. Most of them are jocks and pretty boys but they can beat a lot of people in sports trivia, but Comics? Nope. 

People also have argued that Batman would kick Captain America's ass, in an arena, mano-on-mano.  I said it could possibly happen if Batman were given time to prepare, with proper gadgets, but individuals argued that even without this Batma would kick Captain America's ass.  So yes, Batman has been sold like crazy to people.



NYANKS said:

Superman to me is as boring as things get. His power levels change drastically based on whoever is writing, whatever was written first isn't necessarily what should be followed. There would be no plot for him at all if he was literally just like God, flying so fast around the earth that he turns back time and such.

Superman isn't even the most powerful being in the DC Universe.  One character that has an overpowering issue is The Spectre:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spectre_(comics)

He has failed to be able to consistently get his own series, because no one knows how to prevent him from being overpowered.