/sarcasm?

I like how you have a problem with evolution poofing life into existence (even though that's not even close to being accurate), but have no trouble believing a God just poofed things into existence.

 Yes there was heavy sarcasm in my post. Of course I am not close to being 100% accurate on evolution. I wasn't there when the world poofed into existence. No one is saying take anything on blind faith question everything. At least thats how I was taught. You have a brain you have logic use it.

People try to deal in absolutes but thats not how this world works. Can I believe in creationism and evolution? No jeremy you ignornant redneck hick you have to pick a side. Just like the two party government in America. One is completely right and the other completely wrong. I wish I was 8 again so I could belive things like that. Makes life much easier to cope with.

It amuses me how everyone acts as though they know everything. I don't know everything. And I don't have 11 advanced biology degrees like apparently everyone does on Vgchartz or at least in this forum. Mathmaticians have calculated the odds of everything falling into place perfectly for this world on it and everything on it to be created and it comes out to be about your chances of winning the lottery for the next 80 years straight. Bar none you shouldn't exist and neither should I.

I have used ridiculously simple dumbed down examples to poke holes in many science "facts". I don't need to throw philosophers names around or try to confuse the issues with paradoxes. How did life begin? Why did it begin? I don't see any life forming on Mars or any other planet? What came first the chicken or the egg? If humans have always been so prolific why is it so hard to find the missing link. Cavemen and monkeys are seperate species where is the middleground? I am not saying Jesus popped down and mixed up a batch of humans but if you ignore the gaps how can anyone's opinion be worth anything?

I had a  teacher in college who was very upset about the whole Global warming debate. he had been approached by some people who wanted his take on it (media) and what should be done to stop it. According to him there were about 6 sets of evidence 5 of which said it was a natural warming, a mini ice age occured in the middle ages, while one set said it was human created. Now we all agree pollution is bad m-kay but why was that one set chosen above all others? Of course now its taken as fact even though according to my teacher water vapor holds much more heat then does carbon dioxide. Hmm maybe if Al Gore says there might be a benevolent deity then people will take that as fact too?

People refuse to look at the bigger picture. The best and most believable lies are those with some truth to them. So even if you believe all the world's religions to be lies there has to be something there. Theres gray in the world people half-truths even either ignore it because it doesn't fit your limited world view or accept that you're not a deity yourself and don't know everything there is to know in this world. I wish I could be like some of the people on this thread and just ignore things are in-convenient but I choose not to. As they say though ignorance is bliss. Of course most people want to live for themselves without consequences thats why you hear so much religion bashing these days. You don't want to see a 100 foot tall deity smacking a belt into his palm when you die.

Do I have trouble believing in God. YES. I wouldn't be human otherwise and I'm no pope.

 Do i think this world, the solar system and everything in it was a convenient accident? I could... If I turned off my brain.

Jeremy 

The "miracle" of childirth, lol.  I would like to see the ozone evidence and why you say it qualifies as a "miracle" any more than any other unexpected phenomenon.  When a volcano popped out of a Mexican farmyard in the 1940s, was that a miracle too?  Altruism = God exists?  Anecdotes which are probably highly suspect with little evidence.  Core samples?  Evidence plz, I bet it's creationist claptrap that has been debunked a dozen times.  I'm glad you have your fingers too but you're using them to type absolute drivel. 

You choose what you want to believe in Final-Fan. It doesn't matter how much evidence i bring, you will shoot it down. Why? It doesn't fit into your world and will be dismissed as drivel. Yes they have found core samples indicated a tremendous flood, yes there is no longer a hole in the ozone layer above the Antartic even though the ozone layer was created how many billion years ago and Earth's planetary conditions have changed...slightly since then, yes we can find many dinosaurs from millilons of years ago but have trouble finding a much more recent half man half chimp. Logic, logic logic. Thats great a volcano in Mexico I don't remember the lesson in school where volcanos can only be exist in Hawaii. I must've been sick that day. Birds sometimes don't migrate to the south, nature is unpredictable what of it? I listed only childbirth as being a miracle and that of course is my personal assessment. I didn't classify those discrepencies in supposed scientific "fact" as miracles you have done so. Which could be thought of as an attempt to make me appear as though I am out of touch religious zealot. So you have to have blind faith to believe we all evolved from chimps because we have no hard evidence. Sure we may have proof, dozens of skeletons to look at, similar DNA code to support it but we have no smoking gun. (Missing Link) The same of course goes for the big bang. Do you see the point I'm so ineloquently trying to hammer out?

 Can we agree that no one should have blind faith in anything? We all won't take preachers at their express literal word and we won't take discovery channel or msnbc at theirs. Deal? Hypocrisy looks good on neither of us.

I fail to see how providing contradictory evidence to scientific fact can be juxtaposed as God must exist theres something I can't explain. You tell me God doesn't exist because science has already explained how life began and evolved. I point out numerous chinks in the so called facts and am dismissed. Why is it that only what I believe can be held up to the microscope? The "facts" for world creation, how life began have no reason. Why did the big bang happen the gases in the universe are consistent and not quite volitile. I don't go camping and see multiple explosions out in space very often. How did life begin? There was some dirt, water and hydrogen and for no reason it turned into single celled creatures. Why did that happen? The dirt felt like it. I mean how far a stretch is that. Is it that hard to imagine some diety got the whole ball started? Doesn't science say an object at rest stays at rest. An object in motion stays in motion unless acted on by an outside force? Or were the scientist just kidding when they came up with that?  God exists because not everything in this world follows logic Final-Fan. I refer you back to my preschool examples. I did manage to find the recipe for creating life while searching online first you take a glass of water mix in some rock, fart in it for methane gas and voiola you've got life! Makes no logical sense to me but I'm just a halfwit spouting drivel as you so succinctly put it. 

Jeremy how stupid you are for having faith in a Santa Clause in the sky. To the best of my knowledge though that Santa never believed earth was the center of the universe, the earth itself is flat, or more recently that carbon dioxide holds more heat then water vapor (global warming FTW). If the all knowing scientists can have the luxury of being wrong can you afford that same luxury Final-Fan? 

Jeremy 

AT this moment, does god know which shirt I am going to pick tomorrow (if you say no, then he is not all knowing)

Many people don't want to believe in a god because they don't want anything having power over them. The most interesting aspect of that is people equated knowledge with force. Does anyone pray to fortune cookies or magic 8 balls? If you go into the future and find out Obama wins the US presidency does your knowledge somehow make him win?

Of course not.

Fortune tellers don't have power over you, neither does god (at least the Christian god who emphasized free will). Being all knowing is just knowing the choices you are going to make ahead of time, not forcing you to make that particular choice. if you think about it, if you were a god it'd be hard to have any following if you treated your followers like that.

I am not sure about the other religions though.

 Hope that helps.

jeremy

This'll be my last post on the thread fell free to bash away I just don't have time to debate semantics and I wonder why i've even bothered.

There is unexplained phenomenon in this world. Does that mean God exists, no

There are events that defy reason and logic. Things that couldn't have happened without intervention from some outside force. Does that mean God exists? yes

 You want evidence  for why God exists look around you. You shouldn't exist, life itself shouldn't exist. Whether you're a moron who believes in creationism or a well educated Darwinist. There was no reason for either to begin. Can you believe in both? Well thats outright blasphemy! lmao (of course most smart people do but lets not get into that)

 I'm out. Feel free to insult my beliefs as we all know theres nothing wrong with that. 

Religious insulting athesists? Now wait thats gone too far lol. Double standards are fun!

jeremy  

Chuck Norris is living prove that there is a god.

This thread just seems to follow this, IMO creationism is a load of crap

jer133 said: The "miracle" of childirth, lol. I would like to see the ozone evidence and why you say it qualifies as a "miracle" any more than any other unexpected phenomenon. When a volcano popped out of a Mexican farmyard in the 1940s, was that a miracle too? Altruism = God exists? Anecdotes which are probably highly suspect with little evidence. Core samples? Evidence plz, I bet it's creationist claptrap that has been debunked a dozen times. I'm glad you have your fingers too but you're using them to type absolute drivel. You choose what you want to believe in Final-Fan. It doesn't matter how much evidence i bring, you will shoot it down. Why? It doesn't fit into your world and will be dismissed as drivel. Yes they have found core samples indicated a tremendous flood, yes there is no longer a hole in the ozone layer above the Antartic even though the ozone layer was created how many billion years ago and Earth's planetary conditions have changed...slightly since then, yes we can find many dinosaurs from millilons of years ago but have trouble finding a much more recent half man half chimp. Logic, logic logic. Thats great a volcano in Mexico I don't remember the lesson in school where volcanos can only be exist in Hawaii. I must've been sick that day. Birds sometimes don't migrate to the south, nature is unpredictable what of it? I listed only childbirth as being a miracle and that of course is my personal assessment. I didn't classify those discrepencies in supposed scientific "fact" as miracles you have done so. Which could be thought of as an attempt to make me appear as though I am out of touch religious zealot. So you have to have blind faith to believe we all evolved from chimps because we have no hard evidence. Sure we may have proof, dozens of skeletons to look at, similar DNA code to support it but we have no smoking gun. (Missing Link) The same of course goes for the big bang. Do you see the point I'm so ineloquently trying to hammer out? Can we agree that no one should have blind faith in anything? We all won't take preachers at their express literal word and we won't take discovery channel or msnbc at theirs. Deal? Hypocrisy looks good on neither of us. I fail to see how providing contradictory evidence to scientific fact can be juxtaposed as God must exist theres something I can't explain. You tell me God doesn't exist because science has already explained how life began and evolved. I point out numerous chinks in the so called facts and am dismissed. Why is it that only what I believe can be held up to the microscope? The "facts" for world creation, how life began have no reason. Why did the big bang happen the gases in the universe are consistent and not quite volitile. I don't go camping and see multiple explosions out in space very often. How did life begin? There was some dirt, water and hydrogen and for no reason it turned into single celled creatures. Why did that happen? The dirt felt like it. I mean how far a stretch is that. Is it that hard to imagine some diety got the whole ball started? Doesn't science say an object at rest stays at rest. An object in motion stays in motion unless acted on by an outside force? Or were the scientist just kidding when they came up with that? God exists because not everything in this world follows logic Final-Fan. I refer you back to my preschool examples. I did manage to find the recipe for creating life while searching online first you take a glass of water mix in some rock, fart in it for methane gas and voiola you've got life! Makes no logical sense to me but I'm just a halfwit spouting drivel as you so succinctly put it. Jeremy how stupid you are for having faith in a Santa Clause in the sky. To the best of my knowledge though that Santa never believed earth was the center of the universe, the earth itself is flat, or more recently that carbon dioxide holds more heat then water vapor (global warming FTW). If the all knowing scientists can have the luxury of being wrong can you afford that same luxury Final-Fan? Jeremy

1.
May I presume that you concede nearly all the other points in my response to your earlier post since you chose to not rebut them? 

2.
Although you DID make a comment referring to the supposed lack of primate fossils, your comment here does nothing to address my point:

"So you have to have blind faith to believe we all evolved from chimps because we have no hard evidence. Sure we may have proof, dozens of skeletons to look at, similar DNA code to support it but we have no smoking gun. (Missing Link)"

At some point enough evidence builds up that a reasonable person looks at the evidence and says, "yeah, that's the way it happened."  We have long since passed that point unless you contend that God deliberately planted everything to make us THINK evolution is real.  Which is pointless because (A) even absolute irrefutable proof can be met with "ZOMG GOD DID IT" and (B) Who are you to defy God's will when he obviously wanted all rational people to come to this conclusion?

3.
When I said "show me your evidence" I wanted to see the more detailed information and where it came from, not for you to RESTATE THE SAME GODDAMNED THING. 

4.
What a ridiculous straw man.  The volcano was completely unexpected and literally was a thousand feet high inside of one year.  My point was that unexpected and dramatic changes in the natural environment do not necessarily have miraculous explanations, which you seem to be agreeing with. 

5.  "You tell me God doesn't exist because science has already explained how life began and evolved. I point out numerous chinks in the so called facts and am dismissed. Why is it that only what I believe can be held up to the microscope?"
Wrong, I said that your arguments in support of God were laughable.  I am not trying to disprove God, you are trying to prove God.  You are free to try to prove God by trying to point to deficienceies and alleged deficiencies in scientific understanding but I am confident you will get nowhere.  And so far your evidence has been vague (you still won't tell me any details on the core samples or the ozone and it's not my job to do your research for you) or easily refuted. 
In point of fact I do not have the same confidence in God's nonexistence that you do in his existence.  That's why you have to prove something that I don't to "win". 

6.  Oh I didn't spot this before so I guess you can dismiss point 4.  "I didn't classify those discrepencies in supposed scientific "fact" as miracles you have done so. Which could be thought of as an attempt to make me appear as though I am out of touch religious zealot." 
So you're saying that something can be a miracle even if there is nothing out of the ordinary about it whatsoever, as long as it's personally significant to you or whatever.  Wow.  You do realize the problem with using assertions that can never be proven or disproven to make an argument, right?  I don't remember the name of that logical fallacy but it's in there somewhere.  IF MIRACLES CAN BE COMPLETELY SCIENTIFIC THEN HOW CAN THEY BE EVIDENCE FOR GOD?

7. I refer you back to my preschool examples. I did manage to find the recipe for creating life while searching online first you take a glass of water mix in some rock, fart in it for methane gas and voiola you've got life! Makes no logical sense to me but I'm just a halfwit spouting drivel as you so succinctly put it.
I couldn't have given the evidence for my objections more dramatically than you yourself just did.  "Preschool examples" in which you make ridiculous oversimplifications and then make fun of them for being ridiculously oversimplified.  I never said you were a halfwit but you are certainly spouting drivel. 

8. Jeremy how stupid you are for having faith in a Santa Clause in the sky.
I used that example to illustrate a point, not to equate God to Santa Claus.  I don't know if you're used to debating flamers, trolls, and morons, or if you just THINK everybody who disagrees with you is one, but either way you seem too eager to think every counterargument is mocking your faith. 

9.  If the all knowing scientists can have the luxury of being wrong can you afford that same luxury Final-Fan?
God, as set forth in an infallible Bible, is an all-or-nothing proposition:  everything in the Bible is exactly correct or none of it is.  Scientists can be wrong in some places and right in others.  I have confidence in the scientific community to be right the great majority of the time and to fess up whenever it is demonstrably wrong.  You have not done anything here to shake that confidence.  More to the point, "You might be wrong so you have to believe me because I'm not wrong!" is just about a tie for "almost the worst argument I've ever heard".  Tied with all the other creationists and right behind "YAGDGHOEDHASTGSAGHGF"

jer133 said: This'll be my last post on the thread fell free to bash away I just don't have time to debate semantics and I wonder why i've even bothered. There is unexplained phenomenon in this world. Does that mean God exists, no There are events that defy reason and logic. Things that couldn't have happened without intervention from some outside force. Does that mean God exists? yes You want evidence for why God exists look around you. You shouldn't exist, life itself shouldn't exist. Whether you're a moron who believes in creationism or a well educated Darwinist. There was no reason for either to begin. Can you believe in both? Well thats outright blasphemy! lmao (of course most smart people do but lets not get into that) I'm out. Feel free to insult my beliefs as we all know theres nothing wrong with that. Religious insulting athesists? Now wait thats gone too far lol. Double standards are fun! jeremy

Oh wait, I forgot that you ran away from this argument as soon as your last post just so you can feel good about having the last word without the "downer" of seeing the rebuttals.  This way you can pretend no one could stand up against your mighty prose. 

"Semantics" AHAHAHAHAHA

There is unexplained phenomenon in this world. Does that mean God exists, no
There are events that defy reason and logic. Things that couldn't have happened without intervention from some outside force. Does that mean God exists? yes
So I guess that means you can prove that they are truly unexplainable and not just beyond our CURRENT science, just as nuclear fusion (and therefore the Sun) was beyond the science of a hundred and fifty years ago?  No?  Well then I guess you have no point at all.  Quelle suprise.  

Run like the coward you so obviously are.  Or come back and prove me wrong. 

jer133 said: There was some dirt, water and hydrogen and for no reason it turned into single celled creatures. Why did that happen? The dirt felt like it. I mean how far a stretch is that. Is it that hard to imagine some diety got the whole ball started?

Yeah, Mars has evidence of water at one point in time, so we have all the makings of what could have been life... but guess what?  It probably didn't live very long being that there's no atmosphere.  So, your telling me that God made a mistake on Mars?  That gets back into our whole debate on whether or not God can make mistakes.

There are quite literally billions of stars.  The chance that life would spring up on one of 8(?) planets circling one of those billions is pretty good.  It's like playing reverse odd for the lottery.  You have a million to one change instead of a one in a million.  I can't wait until we find life on another planet and hear religion try to change the rules to compensate that one.

 

The difference is I CAN'T know with 100% certainty that Obama will win the election. If I say he is, and I am imperfect, I can be proven wrong.

God, who is perfect, CAN'T be proven wrong. If he knows something will happen, it will happen, there is NOTHING, NOTHING that can change it. And since there is only one possible outcome, the one that God knows will happen, I can't, CAN'T, CHOOSE a path that results in a different outcome. I can't, its not possible. The ONLY 'choice' I have is the one that god knows. Its set in stone. And if I can only 'choose' to do one thing, then I have no choice. If I am at all limited at what I can actually choose to do, I don't have free will.

That's like saying, I know for a fact that if I drop a bowling ball off a roof, it will fall, but the ball has to first choose to fall first. No, it will fall. Why? Because thats the only option. My understanding of gravity makes me 100% certain that the ball will fall (in all practical scenarios.)

There is no way around it. If god is perfect, and god is all knowing, then he knows all paths everyone will take. I'm not even going to say what decisions they make because that's not what happens. He knows where they will be and what they will be doing at all times, prior to their existance. They HAVE to be in those places and be doing those things. If they weren't, god would be wrong. They can't choose not to be in that place and not to do those things. And when you can't choose you don't have free will.