Kasz216 said: Final-Fan said: Kasz216 said: Final-Fan said: Kasz216 said: But Tombi is suggesting that if they are natural in their own world they can't be god. My point is that it doesn't matter if they are supernatural in their own world. My point is that god does not have to be "universally" supernatural. Which is a bad word for it since he would be supernatural in our universe. But you get my meaning. If he created are universe (a supernatural act in of itself) then he is god. If got defys the laws of our world by keystroke. It's no different then if he does by pointing and saying alakazam.

I see. Is this true, tombi123? If so I'll have to go with Kasz216 on this one. A being from another universe could easily be a potential cause of our own universe, and even if it had no more control than a simple random event causing the Big Bang that would still count as an act of a god. I remember a science fiction story where someone doing a science experiment accidentally created another universe, complete with Big Bang.

Grey Acumen said: Final-Fan said: Grey Acumen said: CrashMan said: How can there be randomness if god knows everything? You keep ignoring that fact that if god is all knowing then there is no probability. To him one is 100% likely to happen, because he knows it WILL happen. If he didn't know it WILL happen, he doesn't know everything. How is knowledge of the physics of a roulette table and the knowledge of what a human WILL do (not may do, WILL do) any different to god? If god does NOT know what a person WILL (as in, not a chance fo anything else) then he is not all knowing, because, well, that's something he DOES NOT KNOW. Okay, I'm going to assume you understand the schrödinger's cat supposition, a visual concept used to describe quantum theory. A cat is either alive or dead, when the cat is not being watched, it exists in both states simultaneously. Same thing for free will. Until the choice is made, God knows of all possible choices that can be made because until that choice is made, all possibilities are simultaneously happening and not happening. Hence god can know everything without knowing what choice you will actually make. ONLY GOD IS NOT SUBJECT TO THESE RULES. He is supernatural, see my discussion with Kasz216. He can put the beatdown on Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle by observing the exact location and trajectory of a particle. He can create matter, or destroy it. (And has, according to you.) Et cetera et cetera. The Bible is FULL of this stuff, even if none of it is couched in even remotely scientific terms. What are you trying to say here? I'm pointing out that the existence of god does not negate free will. Actually, if you want to look at it in that direction, which actually is far more reasonable, God exists outside of time, hence every choice that we'll ever make has both already happened and not happened within the same observable point by god. So to him, he already knows what choices we will make, but that doesn't negate free will because we still exist INSIDE of time. And I didn't misinterprete you at all on your last comment, I simply didn't understand your point at all, hence all the question marks as I asked what point you were trying to make.

The reason I questioned your understanding of my post was that you asked asked if I was trying to prove God can't exist, when not one word of my post could to my view be interpreted in that direction. 

Anyway, maybe I should have reiterated this before, but:
He created the universe, having complete perfect control over what he was creating at that time. Having, as he does, complete perfect knowledge, foresight, understanding, and awareness, he knew at that moment of creation every sin that would ever be committed by the free-willed individuals he was going to cause the creation of. He chose to go ahead and not create the universe differently.

Therefore, your God (assuming He exists) ought to get equal credit for every deed GOOD OR BAD that anyone has ever done or will ever do for all time. God is (indirectly) responsible for every sin ever.
I don't argue at all that we have no free will.  I argue that will is determined by our minds plus the information he get from the world to make decisions with.  If God knows the world perfectly, and he knows our minds perfectly, and he has perfect wisdom, then God ought to be able to perfectly predict our freely chosen actions.  All the rest follows.  We have been manipulated into making the choices we make but WE are still the ones that make them. 

Therefore, we each deserve credit and bear responsibility for the things we freely choose to do; but so does God because he created the circumstances for them.  Everything is our fault; everything is God's fault. 

Grey Acumen said: But while god will know wether or not the file is there, teh program doesn't neccesarily know, hence the reason hed use exception handling or some variant therof.

Well, not entirely... there are ways to check if a file exists before trying to access it.  Using Exceptions is the easiest (safest?) method because you don't have to check and between the time that you check and the time the file is open, if someone (for instance) ejects the disk, then your open will fail, but we are talking microseconds and if someone ejected the disk with or without exception handling, it would get ugly either way.

You could for instance use stat() or _stat()/_fstat() Which is a POSIX function and not part of the standard C library...

So, no.. the computer program can know if the file exists, some just choose to take a leap of faith and open it in an exception block and trust it's there, dealing with the consequences of it failing.  It's not that the program doesn't know.  It's that it doesn't have the built in tools to know.

Which seems to fit in this conversation quite well. :)

Edit: Jeeze.. I'm falling behind the debate here... time to go to bed I guess.

The_vagabond7 said: senseinobaka, you are clearly a Jehovah's Witness, a religion I am very familiar with (I've study a great many religions in depth). If you're not, then you should look into it, you believe exactly as they do. Your prophecy in Isaiah I am very well aware of, and is completely nonsensical and proves nothing, and provides no comfort. The fact of the matter is even if he is GOING to make animals suddenly live peacefully for no apparent reason other than because it sounds peachy keen in paradise, even contradictory to his original design for nature and would throw his ecosystem completely out of whack, it doesn't change the fact of what he made. Clearly he doesn't feel the same way I do, because he created it, and said "it is good". Now you believe that Jehovah is incapable of wickedness, any wickedness that exists is brought on by man, and by Satan. All of the wars, disease, famine, pain suffering, ect is not because of him, he did not create that. Rather Man created that by sinning six thousand years ago in the garden of eden. This world of pain, fear, disease, starvation, a constant struggle for survival is not of his design, but rather something he hates. So what is of his design? If you want to know, all you have to do is look at the earth seven thousand years ago, a thousand years before he made man. What was it like? It was a world of fear, pain, disease, starvation, a constant struggle for survival for every living thing. After he made all of his beautiful creations he wiped out most of them by means of rapid climate change, having them hunt each other to extinction, diseases, famines, and sometimes by creating creatures that just weren't capable of surviving (a serious lack of wisdom). He was capable of creating life however he wanted, and created it so that it was a gruesome, painful, terrifying ordeal, where every day was a struggle just to live. He did something completely contradictory to his supposed nature, he created things that are supposedly unthinkably awful to him. He created what Witnesses attribute solely to man and Satan. He is a bloodthirsty god. If you are a witness you believe in Armageddon, in which after the great tribulation when god puts it into the heart of man to have it's governments attempt to destroy all of organized religion, Jehovah will step in to defend his true servants (Specifically Jehovah's witnesses, and no other religion, because they worship false gods). Now this god of infinite love and wisdom's brilliant loving solution to creating a peaceful world, is what? To kill 99.9% of the earth's population (witness's are about 6-7 million, in an earth of 6-7 billion). That is the end of the conflict. Kill everyone that disagrees with him, or doesn't know him (I know you claim that the door to door work you do gives everyone a chance to know him, but honestly how is passing out magazines and offering studies to people giving them a real chance to know him, compared to say him saying "Hey everybody, I'm Jehovah. Who wants to know me?") in a massacre of men women and children. Then there is a ressurection of righteous and unrighteous that were lucky enough to die before god killed them. Perfectly loving, just, and sensical! The fact of the matter is, as Mark Twain put it, the bible is the most damning biography ever written. The God of Love is a bloodthirsty god that killed millions, and supposedly in the future plans on killing billions more. He gave birth to pain, fear, disease, famine, war (as jane goodall showed, primates wage war just as humans do. we're just better at it), and afterwards looked at the carnage and said "it is good". I'm sorry but the god you believe in is a fairy tale. His world and book contradict his very nature. I don't believe in destroying god, but seeing as how this is an open debate I don't feel to bad about showing the illogical reasoning behind it.

 You have an idea of what I beleive as a Jehovah's Witness, but I wouldnt describe you as being very familiar. I say this because you touch on some buzz words and ideas, but explain them incorrectly.

First of all is Armegeddon. The events leading up to Armageddon according to Revelation is not as you described it. Many of the events have already passed, but the next one according to Revelation to be completed is "god putting it in the heart of governments to destroy false religion." You claim this a bloodthirsty act on God's part, when infact it really isnt. Modern governments, governments installed in the last 100 years, have already been doing this. Both Russia and China are governments that have chosen atheism and purged religion (Russia has stepped back and allowed some practice of religion, but continues an atheist agenda). Many other governments have also outlawed religion. World wide there is a huge downturn in religous belief. It has been a process that is far from bloodthirsty. [[side note]the reason for religions destruction is for the same reason many hate organized religion. Religion is bloodguilty do to wars and execution, they misled with false teachings of god (such as hellfire as I mentioned earlier), and are notoriuos hypocrites. In revelation god describes religion as a harlot[/side note]] . Next you mention the great tribulation. Revelation doesnt say the great tribulation is an act of god, infact it says it is an act of man. The great tribulation is described as being a time with extreme suffering and death. Infact, this man made tribulation is so great that there would be no survivors at all unless god take action. This act of god is what Revelation calls Armageddon. Many beleive Aramgeddon is an apocalypse, when in fact it the thing that saves us from extinction. Armegeddon is not a massacre of men, women and children.

You also claim that I beleive as a witness I think only witnesses would survive Armageddon. Again, you are mistaken. Gods action at Armageddon will be with the purpose to save men, not kill men. I've said this before, all men receive the benefits of Christ's ransom. (I'll make this side not; If god selectively kills someone at armegeddon it would be a person who will directly receive second death, or eternal destruction. But this applies to a very, very, VERY small few. The bible only records a couple instances were a person was deserving of that: Adam, Eve, Judas, and the Cities of Sodom and Gomorah. Thats how many were excluded from a resurrection hope in 4000 years of bible history. Armageddon wouldn't be much different, there may be some...but not alot. It's a case where god decides that the individual is not deserving of the ransom.)

Also our Door to door ministry is not with the purpose of ensuring someone salvation at armegeddon. It's a bible education work being done that way people can come to truly know about God and His Kingdom. It also teaches what his kingdom will accomplish. This is a necessary action because mainstream christianity doesnt do it. You seem like smeone who is very well read and educated, and it wouldnt suprise me if you had a better understanding of waht the bible teaches than most born and raised christians. The spirit of our ministry is found at John 17:3.  

And then there's post Armageddon. You acknowledge a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. You are correct. This is the point in history in which all men have the opportunity to live a life free of sin and satan. You claim that only those who died before armageddon will recieve this benefit. You are both right and wrong. The billions before Armageddon will be raised and the billions who survive armageddon will recieve the benefits of ransom (living without the shackles of sin). 

 

I feel like I'm writing a novel here, so I'll breifely discuss your objection to the prophecy in Isaiah. The prophecy applies to gods kingdom after armegeddon. It doesnt say anything about what life was like in the animal kingdom before the sin in eden. In fact that's not mentioned anywhere in the bible. But science has, and it shows that animals existed in an ecosystem much like the one today. But you seem to believe that a predatory animal is some how evil. I have to disagree with the premise. God designed a system that is adaptable and changing. It's not static, if it was then all animals would go extinct. I think this animal kingdom argument is actually kind of silly, it's almost as if you are grasping at straws to pin wickedness on god. "Oh look that Lion ate that zebra, how evil is God?" It doesnt make sense to me on any spiritual or scientific level. 

Let me put forth a very simple example.

Say I have two clean shirts, one blue and one red. I will wear one of the tomorrow, but I haven't decided which yet.

AT this moment, does god know which shirt I am going to pick tomorrow (if you say no, then he is not all knowing)

Did he know a week ago which shirt I was going to pick? and did he know that I was going to wear all my other shirts BESIDES those two (again if you say no, he is not all knowing)

Did he know before I was born, that one day I would be faced with this decision, and also know which shirt i would chose (see above)

Did he know before shirts were invented that I would one day buy these shirts, wear all my other ones, be faced with this decision, and know which shirt I was going to chose (see above)

Move back indefinitely, did he know all these things then? Be your declaration of an all knowing god, yes he did, and say a 2 billion years ago in our temporal refernce he knew. That means THEN, 2 billion years ago, since god knew it would happen, it was an absolute fact that I would pick whichever shirt I will tomorrow. It was set in stone. If it wouldn't how could go know?

So tomorrow, I HAVE to pick the shirt god knew I would 2 billion years ago. If I don't it would prove god wrong, which, as we know, would be impossible. So the options are me choose one shirt and prove god wrong (impossible, therefore not a choice I can make,) or chose the one shirt god knew I would 2 billion yers ago.

Add as many options as you would like, and I still have to pick the one god knew I would, or I prove god wrong (impossible so not a choice I can make)

Therefore, in summation, with pressented with a choice, I have no real choice, I have to follow the path that god knew I would billions of years ago. If I don't then I prove god wrong, which can't be done.

 Lets say he knows, and has known, with 100% certainty that I will wear the red one.  Can I wake up tomorrow and chose to wear the blue one?

Question: At the end of the day, are there going to be people alive who are not Jehovah's Witnesses? You say vagabond is wrong to say "no", but your following explanation does not verify this point.

Also:  http://www.vgcats.com/comics/?strip_id=200

CrashMan said: Let me put forth a very simple example. Say I have two clean shirts, one blue and one red. I will wear one of the tomorrow, but I haven't decided which yet. AT this moment, does god know which shirt I am going to pick tomorrow (if you say no, then he is not all knowing) Did he know a week ago which shirt I was going to pick? and did he know that I was going to wear all my other shirts BESIDES those two (again if you say no, he is not all knowing) Did he know before I was born, that one day I would be faced with this decision, and also know which shirt i would chose (see above) Did he know before shirts were invented that I would one day buy these shirts, wear all my other ones, be faced with this decision, and know which shirt I was going to chose (see above) Move back indefinitely, did he know all these things then? Be your declaration of an all knowing god, yes he did, and say a 2 billion years ago in our temporal refernce he knew. That means THEN, 2 billion years ago, since god knew it would happen, it was an absolute fact that I would pick whichever shirt I will tomorrow. It was set in stone. If it wouldn't how could go know? So tomorrow, I HAVE to pick the shirt god knew I would 2 billion years ago. If I don't it would prove god wrong, which, as we know, would be impossible. So the options are me choose one shirt and prove god wrong (impossible, therefore not a choice I can make,) or chose the one shirt god knew I would 2 billion yers ago. Add as many options as you would like, and I still have to pick the one god knew I would, or I prove god wrong (impossible so not a choice I can make) Therefore, in summation, with pressented with a choice, I have no real choice, I have to follow the path that god knew I would billions of years ago. If I don't then I prove god wrong, which can't be done. Lets say he knows, and has known, with 100% certainty that I will wear the red one. Can I wake up tomorrow and chose to wear the blue one?

I don't believe that necessarily means you have no free will; just that someone happens to have the inside track on that info. And all info. Kinda depressing, and it obviously means predetermination, but still.  I guess it depends on what you consider "free", though.  

Final-Fan said: You also claim that I beleive as a witness I think only witnesses would survive Armageddon. Again, you are mistaken. Gods action at Armageddon will be with the purpose to save men, not kill men. I've said this before, all men receive the benefits of Christ's ransom. (I'll make this side not; If god selectively kills someone at armegeddon it would be a person who will directly receive second death, or eternal destruction. But this applies to a very, very, VERY small few. Question: At the end of the day, are there going to be people alive who are not Jehovah's Witnesses? You say vagabond is wrong to say "no", but your following explanation does not verify this point.

I'm not sure what you mean by "at the end of the day" so I'm gonna assume:

1)If you mean after Armegeddon, the answer is yes. You will have survivors of armegeddon and then you will have people being resurrected both righteous and unrighteous. The vast majority of those resurrected will not be Jehovah's Witnesses.

2)If you mean after everyone is resurrected and gods kingdom is over the entire earth. Then the answer is in a way no. Those who are resurrected or those who survive armegeddon that decide to follow satan will recieve second death. So that leaves only worshipers of God in god's kingdom.

 

PS: I've seen that VgCats before, it's funny. However, I think it perpetuates an incorrect idea of our ministry. It's not a listen to us or die message. Jesus describes it as Good News. It's a message of a wonderful future devoid of all the crap we have today, like sin, sickness, wickedness. We have no ill will or bad feelings for our neighbors and those we meet in our ministry, the activity is one of love. And most importantly, Jehovah, the god of the bible, has no will to see people die. It's one of the things that seperates us from mainstream christianity that says; "Be saved or be tortured in hell foever." The bible doesnt teach that, only hate filled cleregymen that will use fear to bring people into their church on sunday morning do.

senseinobaka said: Final-Fan said: You also claim that I beleive as a witness I think only witnesses would survive Armageddon. Again, you are mistaken. Gods action at Armageddon will be with the purpose to save men, not kill men. I've said this before, all men receive the benefits of Christ's ransom. (I'll make this side not; If god selectively kills someone at armegeddon it would be a person who will directly receive second death, or eternal destruction. But this applies to a very, very, VERY small few. Question: At the end of the day, are there going to be people alive who are not Jehovah's Witnesses? You say vagabond is wrong to say "no", but your following explanation does not verify this point. I'm not sure what you mean by "at the end of the day" so I'm gonna assume: 1)If you mean after Armegeddon, the answer is yes. You will have survivors of armegeddon and then you will have people being resurrected both righteous and unrighteous. The vast majority of those resurrected will not be Jehovah's Witnesses. 2)If you mean after everyone is resurrected and gods kingdom is over the entire earth. Then the answer is in a way no. Those who are resurrected or those who survive armegeddon that decide to follow satan will recieve second death. So that leaves only worshipers of God in god's kingdom. PS: I've seen that VgCats before, it's funny. However, I think it perpetuates an incorrect idea of our ministry. It's not a listen to us or die message. Jesus describes it as Good News. It's a message of a wonderful future devoid of all the crap we have today, like sin, sickness, wickedness. We have no ill will or bad feelings for our neighbors and those we meet in our ministry, the activity is one of love. And most importantly, Jehovah, the god of the bible, has no will to see people die. It's one of the things that seperates us from mainstream christianity that says; "Be saved or be tortured in hell foever." The bible doesnt teach that, only hate filled cleregymen that will use fear to bring people into their church on sunday morning do.

I'm glad you took it in the good humor it was given.  It's clearly not at all serious. 

But back on topic:  It's follow God or follow Satan?  No middle ground?  (Not surprising but just making sure.)