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Forums - Gaming Discussion - AMD: PS4 performance advantage over XB1 bigger than many expect thanks to hUMA

Captain_Tom on 21 August 2013
nightsurge said:
Misleading title. Only relates to 3D, not the overall consoles. 3D so far is terrible and won't be good for many years to decades (glasses free, no blur, no angle restrictions, etc.)


It doesn't only relate to 3D, if you would read it you would understand this kind of architecture upgrade is huge (Can't wait to see what Kavari can do!).

Also: When they say "3D," they mean 3D games instead of 2D.  Like BF3 not Rayman.   I know it is dated but that's what they mean...



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jonathanalis on 21 August 2013

but ps4 dont have a edram making the memory bandwidth even faster.
in ps4 u dont need to break the main memory into pieces and bring to a fast edram.
in ps4 is easier, but xbox can be as fast as in ps4.



nightsurge on 21 August 2013
Captain_Tom said:
nightsurge said:
Misleading title. Only relates to 3D, not the overall consoles. 3D so far is terrible and won't be good for many years to decades (glasses free, no blur, no angle restrictions, etc.)


It doesn't only relate to 3D, if you would read it you would understand this kind of architecture upgrade is huge (Can't wait to see what Kavari can do!).

Also: When they say "3D," they mean 3D games instead of 2D.  Like BF3 not Rayman.   I know it is dated but that's what they mean...

Roger that. If that's the case they fail to take into account the custom move engines and other hardware MS used (as others mentioned).



OdinHades on 21 August 2013

Silly AMD, they obviously forgot about TEH CLOUD!

jk



Official member of VGC's Nintendo family, approved by the one and only RolStoppable. I feel honored.

Adinnieken on 21 August 2013
zarx said:
Adinnieken said:

Sorry, it isn't.

Tiled Resources is a thing only two existing companies have worked on and have patents for, one of them is Microsoft.  None of them is AMD or NVidia.  The other is PowerVR owned by Imagination Technologies.  Neither AMD nor NVidia are licensees for PowerVR's patent technology.

You're mistaking Tiled Resources with Megatextures.  They are not the same.

Tiled Resources are akin to Paint-by-Number.  Where a letter represents a texture image used.  A tiled resource is made up of multiple small texture tile images, 32x32p, 64x64p, or whatever ratio the final image requires.  Tiled resources looks at the entire geometry of a scene and only applies a texture to the visible area.  Ultimately this requires fewer resources, making tiled resources both GPU and memory efficient.

Megatextures require a very large, final image to act as the texture.  Up to 128000x128000.  These textures are then overlaid, one on top of the other.  So as you move, the texture that offers the infocus terrain is more visible.  While this is less GPU intensive, it is heavily memory intensive.     

The Xbox One doesn't use hUMA because the Xbox One uses eSRAM.  The GPU and the CPU in the Xbox One, as in the Xbox 360, can access the same memory but the GPU also utilizes the eSRAM. 

Not true AMD's GCN has native support for tiled resources they called it Partially Resident Texture you can read about it here http://developer.amd.com/wordpress/media/2012/10/Partially%20Resident%20Textures%20on%20Next-Generation%20GPUs.v04.pps (The implementation in DX 11.2 is the same) and Meagexture is actually a tiled bassed system implemented in software http://renderingpipeline.com/2012/03/megatextures-in-rage/.

No, they're not the same thing at all.

A Partially Resident Texture is the same thing as a MegaTexture.  The difference is that unlike a MegaTexture, a PRT uses virtual memory to store a texture in rather than reloading it.  Both are like laying laying a large room rug down, then laying a smaller run down, and then finally laying a small rug down.

A Tiled Resource uses a film strip-like image file, made up of small texture tiles, that are mapped to a reference ID, so that like a paint-by-number painting, the geometry is tiled with the appropriately referenced texture tile.

PRT gains efficiency by using virtual memory, rather than re-reading necessary texture resources from the HDD.

Tiled Resources gains efficiency by using small image files, reusing texture tiles, and neither building nor texturing geometry that isn't visible.



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LiquorandGunFun on 21 August 2013

now i just want a bad ass 3d uncharted 4. uncharted 3 was great in 3d.



 

colafitte on 21 August 2013

Maybe we start hearing more often from developers that ps4 is superior....

http://www.videogamer.com/ps4/need_for_speed_rivals/news/need_for_speed_rivals_may_look_a_little_better_on_one_next-gen_console_than_the_other.html



-CraZed- on 21 August 2013
ShinmenTakezo said:
chapset said:
But the Internet told me the difference between the X1 and Ps4 will be negligible at best same for the wii U and X1


Lol. That's the thing that kills me right now. People must have very short memories. Yes the difference between 360 and PS3 were nearly negligible. What about PS2 vs Xbox. There was definitely a difference there. Even between the GC and PS2. What about the 64 and PS? There was defintely a difference there. Just because this gen there isn't a big difference between the power of the hardware doesn't mean next gen will be the same. History says otherwise.

We also need to realize that power doesn't mean it will automatically have the best games. PS & PS2 were the weakest of their gens, yet had arguably the best games in the largest quantities both gens.

The difference there are huge compared to this gen. The PS used CDs while the competing consoles were using carts. While the both have/had their pros and cons the CD is where gaming was heading and made games cheaper to make and therefore buy. The Dreamcast just came too late to the party. The PS2 introduced DVDs and the XBOX came kind of late to the party. There are other factors such as game and the like but overall it had more to do with other factors outside of power.

 

Now before you say 'Well that makes my point for me.'  This gen is going to be devoid of many of those factors. These two 'next-gen' systems are coming out with in a week or so of one another AND there just so many fewer exclusives than ever before. The only real differentiators right now (at least for me) are price and specs. PS4 has both of those locked up at this point. Also, while the PS3 was technically more powerful than the 360 it was arguably much harder to develop for and yet it still, as of this year, pulled ahead of the so-called lead platform in the 360 in terms of console sales.

 

The WiiU which is no doubt the weakest console of this gen is selling fewer units than the PS Vita and the preorder numbers for the PS4 are outrageously high... Sure this will be a long console cycle but the PS4 has a head start right out of the gate and as long as they continue to make great games. The higher spec'd PS4 will 'win' this generation.

 



Adinnieken on 21 August 2013
ShinmenTakezo said:
Adinnieken said:

No, sorry, it can't. 

As stated before, only two companies own the patent technology for tiled resources.  Microsoft and PowerVR.  While the Vita uses a GPU with PowerVR technology in it, neither Sony, AMD, nor NVidia are licensees of PowerVR's technology.

MegaTextures anyone can use.  MegaTextures do exactly what you say (bolded in the original comment).  While Tiled Resources offer similar features, the main difference is that tiles are laid onto only the visible geometry.  You don't waste resources on building non-visible geometry, nor do you waste resources on texturing geometry that you won't ever see.

With MegaTextures you may have a texture applied to a base geometry, a rolling plain for example, but the geometry of a rock, mound, hill, or mountain is built separately and on top of that.  With Tiled Resources, the entire geometry of the scene is calculated first, the areas that aren't visible aren't generated, only the visible geometry is generated and then tiled with the appropriate textures.

While you are correct, that Tile Resources isn't only available on the Xbox One, it is only available on Microsoft systems (Xbox 360 and Xbox One), or only on those systems that have licensed PowerVR technology used in their GPU (Sony PlayStation Vita).

In regards to hUMA I'm saying Microsoft's memory architecture is heterogeneous, with one slight difference.  The GPU also has memory that the CPU can't access.  There's no significant difference in this regards between hUMA and the Xbox One's memory architecture.  The CPU and the GPU on both systems can point to memory references that either one is using.  The only question is if the Xbox One's GPU can accept page faults or not.

@bolded: You have no clue what you are talking about. The One CPU has a seperate memory allocation in its shared memory pool that the GPU can't access. The GPU has memory allocated in the shared pool that the CPU can't access. Therefore CPU data must be copied to the GPU memory allocation in order for the GPU to process this data. You are completely off and should do some research. You are basically saying AMD is lying about its own products.

@bolded italics: SAME FRIGGIN THING!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiled_rendering

Can't find the video for the MSDN presentation on Tiled Resources in the Xbox One/Windows 8, but it is simply an advancement upon what is described in Tiled Rendering above.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MegaTexture

MegaTextures defined.

http://renderingpipeline.com/2012/03/partially-resident-textures-amd_sparse_texture/

Partially Resident Textures defined.

I'll reserve comment on the memory situation.



ethomaz on 21 August 2013

I know the guys here are discussing Tiled Resources but just a point...

The Tiled Resources give limited virtual graphics memory access to CPU... it is not like direct access... the GPU need to handle this access... you need to think like the Cell and RSX (RSX can use the system memory but via Cell... not directly).

hUMA give you direct access to the graphic memory (or system memory) from both CPU and GPU.

A system with hUMA makes the Tiled Resources useless.

And it is hardware and software depended... what that means? You need DirectX 11.2 and a supported hardware can use Tiled Resources... I don't know if the actual AMD GPU have support to Tiled Resources but I'm sure MS added that to the custom Xbone GPU.

And from what I saw PS4 GPU support all the the features presents in DX 11.2 at hardware level but it is useless because the PS4 OS didn't use DirectX 11.2... you have at hardware level but can't use due Software limitation. AMD expect OpenGL 5.0 to support Tiled Resources that will be present in the new GPU hardware (DX 11.2 compatible).

Sony can create the own implementation of Tiled Resources to use the hardware support but like I said hUMA makes Tiled Resources useless.

Partially Resident Textures and Tiled Resources are the same thing .