Hi, my answers are bolded, irrelevance in the post has been removed, there’s quite a lot of it. Note that I’m picking key sentences, the post would become incredibly long and uninteresting and these posts are way too large as it is.
Entire sections and bits that do not directly tie into the argument are discarded/ignored and I will focus on main points that either somewhat pertain to my arguments (hard to come by) or have some relevance on any other basis that other posters would likely care for.
“Wii DID start a new era in gaming. Wii DID cause a full-turn revolution. Alongside the DS.
This cannot be denied as we see the adventures of Microsoft's Kinect, Sony's PlayStation Move, & Apple's & later Google's emergence in the gaming realm through the smartphones & tablets.
I called Wii 'The Future of Gaming' back in 2005 on the comment boards of Joystiq & Kotaku & that has happened.
This is documented reality now. It's in the history books. This cannot be argued.”
Of course it can be argued, this “revolution” has sent Nintendo chasing after touch controls, which are very much a child of the iPod era and has nothing to do with the Wii, Sony have all but abandoned the Move and Kinect is largely, and will probably remain, an interface tool. Meanwhile, mainstream console gaming is not changed from before and hasn’t taken any cues from this “revolution” at all. It was a short and intense flame sparked to life by an ingeniously aimed console striking the transitional gold vein that is the casual consumer.
“There were no excuses. Wii had the most sales & thus the most sales potential.”
Oh, snap! Really? So that means that mobile/tablet devices are the best possible market you can want then with their 800.000.000 smartphones and 130.000.000 tablets in 2012? Since big userbase equals opportunity for easy money by default.
“This was not the era of the Nintendo 64 & Gamecube when it could be argued that the relatively low sales prevented support.”
You somehow got this backwards, N64 and GC didn’t have poor support due to low sales, they had low sales due to poor support and they had poor support due the lack of an optimal developer environment. This is the first part of the epic rebuttal and you’re already on thin ice here. They (N64/GC) had strange controllers, non-standard formats and architecture that opposed the industry standards, all of which made multiplatform development needlessly cumbersome. And 3rd parties were looking for an escape route from the Nintendo yoke of the 1984-1993 era and found it; it was the Playstation. Backwards design + backwards “quality control” = poor developer environment.
“They didn't have to make games exclusive to Wii. No one expected that.”
Except the fact that you did, and much of your scenario revolved around the market crashing due to rising development costs, forcing developers to live off of producing cheaper games on the Wii as the sole means of survival. You may have forgotten that detail, I haven’t.
“They just had to offer the same games they did to other platforms so that Wii owners could play too.
But they didn't. They fortified their existing standoff of Nintendo even further & Nintendo nor the gaming public could enjoy the potential of the game design that would come from these 3rd parties.
It was a loss for everybody as the 3rd parties opted to play politics instead.”
Two problems here; the aforementioned structural difference was at an all-time high with the Wii, it was severely underpowered and could not process anything close to the same code as the PS3/360, so developers were essentially forced to script entirely new code for the purpose of that one platform, a platform that also turned out to be unable to move such fare in any significant numbers. You saw quick bucks, developers saw extended development times, added resources for new code in porting and a customer base too busy playing Mario or Wii Sports to bother shooting Arabs and other generic subjects.
The second problem is, of course, that you have maintained, even in this very thread that these 3rd party efforts are largely tosh and represent the degeneration of gaming (a sentiment I partly agree with, but it’s not a problem for me since I’m not the one making this feeble contradiction).
Or are you suggesting through “potential of the game design” that these developers would somehow change their ways and make different games? How the hell does that tie in with “They didn’t have to make games exclusive to the Wii. No one expected that”?
This whole section is filled with contradictions, John.
“Horsepower is an excuse because that has never gotten in the way of a developer before.
It didn't get in the way of the Sega Genesis. It didn't get in the way of the Sony PlayStation 2.”
Yeah, because that’s comparable to the Wii – PS3/360 hardware discrepancy. The Wii was unable to render a slew of high tier effects, resolution, sound formats and was basically out of tune with every bit of the hardware in the other two, the PS3 especially so. There is absolutely no grounds for comparison here, only if one wants to make a far-fetched prediction and analysis come true.
“I never have believed in the line of "hard to develop for". That's a line given by developers when they don't WANT to develop on a platform either because they're being paid off to make games for a competing platform or they have embedded disdain for the platform on their own.”
Like they were being paid to say it about the PS3 and PS2? The PS3 was hard to develop for, by practically all accounts. Just a line from developers who didn’t really want to work on it? I thought the Wii was the disdained platform, not the PS3.And, no, not every single developer in the world was bribed my MS either, if anything, the 360 and PS3 had close to 50/50 3rd party support. This is a very poor argument, and once again contradictory with reality.
“Even if the Call of Duty franchise is more identified with the 360 & PS3, that doesn't mean you don't make another version for other platforms.”
If it means extra hassle, extended development cycles due to different coding and topped off with very low sales; yes it does.
“If Call of Duty games sell more on 360 & PS3, then just lower the amount of copies you make for the other platform.
That way you sell out your shipment & make some easy money from a popular platform.”
Uhm, I’m not sure how much you know about game development, John, but the cost of developing a game has no link what so ever to how many copies you decide to print and distribute. Software is not cars; the amount of copies does not affect the development cost. Are you sure you’re knowledgeable on the industry? This must be the bit where things got somewhat jumbled then.
I can also inform you that the Lord of the Rings trilogy would not have cost a few hundred bucks if they showed it only one cinema and never printed any DVD’s or Blu-ray’s.
“Those Call of Duty games made on Nintendo's systems sold pretty decently too.”
No, they really didn’t, most of them sold very poorly, and even if they had, I somehow think most developers of blockbusters tend to aim slightly north of “pretty decently” most of the time.
“There's simply no excuse for how the 3rd parties treated the Wii. They preferred to play politics to show their power.”
Or; they were presented with a less than optimal developer environment and a majority installed base that would rarely, if ever, had taken an interest in their product anyway. They had pathetic online, there were no trophies/achievements and the whole design was more trouble than it was worth. It wasn’t a grand conspiracy; it was Nintendo aiming primarily at the casuals paired with the lack of aforementioned function and environment that ultimately caused most 3rd parties to not put their traditional games on the Wii.
“The 3rd parties wanted to rule the business & didn't want Nintendo to have any more power than they already did.”
You mean all that amazing power from losing everything in the 5th and 6th generation? And, no, they don’t want to “rule the business” so much as not want to be ruled. Left without the abnormal casual appeal of the Wii, we can see the extent of Nintendo’s power in the home console market today: below incredible.
“If Microsoft & Sony have to lose billions in the process so be it. So long as they remain calling the shots, the parasites could care less about their hosts.”
And companies such as these would somehow be beneficial to Nintendo? Besides, why are you calling them “parasites” and then later on citing developers who went bust? Doesn’t that imply losses incurred for all parties involved, effectively making the developers risk just as high?
“Their gaming businesses depend on pleasing the 3rd party developers for support.”
Yes, and the PS1 and PS2 showed that this is pretty damn effective strategy if executed correctly.
“They bend over backwards giving the 3rd parties what they want throughout every temper tantrum because Sony & Microsoft had goals for these machines that went outside of gaming.”
As opposed to dictating developers through arbitrary measures of quality and controlling every outlet down to review media (Nintendo Power) in order to sedate the market for full control and to extract royalty fees (I’m sorry, licensing fees), effectively propelling your own fortunes based on others’ work? Besides; “goals for these machines that went outside of gaming”, is that why the Wii U in no way attempts to compete in the non-gaming field? Such an evil plan. Besides; Microsoft very recently went directly against developer majority wishes by discarding their planned DRM policies; Sony has also refused to resort to things like these to please customers, despite developers not liking it.
“If the PlayStation name or the XBox name gets big enough Sony & Microsoft can transfer that name value into their ultimate goals.
A defacto Microsoft PC (in hardware not just software) that rules the living room for your entertainment.
A Sony media hub that becomes the gateway for all Sony products & formats.
Who's zooming who?”
As opposed to a Nintendo platform becoming a gateway for everything gaming, netting them massive amounts of influence and money and ruling over the consumer and developer with a monopoly? Or a Nintendo system that is a gateway to all Nintendo products… oops. Again, contradictions, John.
“Sony who was once the Undisputed King of Electronics has lost command in pretty much every field they're in & are now dependent on the PlayStation to bolster their brand & their business.
Their credit rating has plummeted to JUNK status, they're selling headquarters & major offices for capital & then there's THIS:”
I can’t really disagree with that on a meaningful level, so I won’t. That is actually possible. ;) I will say though, that none of that has anything to do with Nintendo employing a hugely intelligent play with the Wii U and everything to do with Apple, LG and Samsung. It’s not about gaming at all, it’s about Sony falling behind the times and being outdone by others, you know; like Nintendo with the Wii U and very soon the 3DS.
“Microsoft's situation is not quite as dire as Sony's”
In fact; it’s not dire at all. They’re doing great overall.
“how many more billions are they gonna lose on this XBox project?
The XBox has NEVER made money for Microsoft. NEVER. Billions lost on the original XBox. Billions lost on the XBox 360.”
Didn’t you just mention “A defacto Microsoft PC (in hardware not just software) that rules the living room for your entertainment.”? That’s the plan, in all likelihood and if it succeeds, they will more than make up for all that lost money on the xbox brand. Telenor, a Norwegian tele company took some fairly heavy financial hits when they started, almost single handedly, building and improving Norway’s internet and mobile infrastructure.
Everyone was asking why, Telenor kept on going and spent billions in 7-10 years. This practice led to a near monopoly where they are now in a position to control nearly the entire market and the only way to enter this market is by renting their bandwidth and centrals. They also used the break-out technology they employed in the process to gain about 60 million more customers in Asia and the Middle East, effectively increasing their userbase by about 2000% in a few years and getting to insane revenues.
Business, it’s serious business. And here you are trying to teach us how to read long term planning.
“The tablet PCs & their smaller "smartphone" variants don't even know Microsoft. Google & Apple run these new-age PCs.
Desktops & laptops run by Windows will slowly fade into the background as more & more people use their tablets run by Android or iOS.”
Yes, netting Nintendo even more competition for handhelds and their ridiculous Gamepad, not good news right here.
“IBM still exists but they are no longer THE NAME in tech & are relegated to the general business & industry sector.”
I know, they’ve been tarnished by their archaic ways and business model and been relegated to tasks such as delivering CPU chipsets for the Nintendo Wii U. IBM have slowly been losing their hold and position in the industry they helped birth and preserve, this is more or less a match made in heaven.
“Microsoft is about to be similarly relegated to the general business & industry sector as well.”
And this analysis is coming from a man who doesn’t understand that games don’t cost less just because you print them in fewer copies to sell. I think I’m gonna keep reading financial news and global economics reports on consumer electronics and software rather than taking your incredibly reaching word for gospel, if you don’t mind.
“That's why they created the XBox. To maintain prominence in the residential sector. They wanted more strength in the home. They wanted to be Your Fun Company™. There's just something special about those personal electronics.”
What a useless tidbit, isn’t that the exact same aim Nintendo has? Or do you think they went into gaming simply to do you, me and the ignorant developers a favor with no expected self-gain? Again, you show a real lack of grasp of most topics surrounding business. Why is this more futile and evil when MS do it and what difference does it make when Nintendo are failing even more at reaching this goal?
“But what if Microsoft ends up in the same place Sony did with the PlayStation?
What if Microsoft ends up dependent on the XBox to maintain their brand & business & are forced to lose billions to continue the XBox due to the temper tantrums of the demanding 3rd parties who bolster that console?”
That will never ever happen and you know it, it’s a wild fantasy of yours that is mandatory for your fantastically far-fetched cataclysm scenario to play out, possibly in the next gen if not now (rhetorical emergency exit). Besides; claiming that Playstation is the only thing keeping Sony afloat is a gross exaggeration at best, music and formats are by far their biggest contributors today. The whole Microsoft software division, which is by far the biggest software entity on the globe, declining so badly over the 8th gen that the xbox will be the only thing remaining to keep them somewhat relevant. Do you understand how HUGE Microsoft is, John? The word “micro” in the company does not pertain to their credit rating or assets more than the “ten” in Nintendo implies that they’re selling ten consoles every month.
“It's very hard to make money in the videogaming business. It's not as dependable a money source as becoming the default operating system for nearly every computer in the world: residential, business, & industry.”
Yes, and that is why Nintendo are currently making a killing off of their brilliant Wii U financial model? Selling hardware at a great loss with no other division to soak losses and then, when sales flounder, throw in the software that was offsetting the loss and lose even more! That’s how businesses should be run, naturally. You’re right though, it is hard to make money in the gaming industry, which is not good news for Nintendo either, their current and above mentioned losses prove as much.
With another forced price cut next year and everything being bundled, Nintendo will keep on losing money on the Wii U for quite some time, probably at least until Q3 2014 and even then their tiny hardware sales with tiny profit margins will only net them tiny amounts, if any.
Advertising costs money for Nintendo as well, as does software development, especially now when they’re making HD games at long last.
“OK we have to create an expensive system that we cannot sell at a profit from launch. And we still have to sell it at a fairly high price even then.”
Oh, like the Wii U?
“The royalties from the game sales are not covering the costs & now we have to cut the console price because not enough people are buying the system so that we can be profitable.”
Hmm, you mean like the Wii U?
“So now the ratio of manufacturing costs to sales profit gets even wider.”
Wow, amazing, just like the Wii U!
“We're starting to close the ratio bit by bit but now the system is getting seen as old & we're compelled to create a new expensive system to satisfy the boredom of the developers & the gaming public.”
Holy shit, you really do understand the trouble Nintendo is in! And with the Wii U being the most technically unimpressive of the bunch, they will be compelled to create a new expensive system first, perhaps right after they’ve started turning a nickel on the Wii U and long before they’ve covered the fairly extensive losses it incurred to begin with. The 3DS will cover it? First off; no, it won’t the 3DS will be slowly killed by the mobile/tablet industry and, besides, isn’t it stupid for one division of a business covering the losses of another? I mean, according to you; it is.
“This essentially puts us back where we started & even a little further back.
And all the while we have to cut the old system's price a little more each time along the way.
Unless we sell a record amount of consoles which in turn makes for a record amount of games sold & thus game royalties, we'll never get anywhere in this business.”
Sounds a lot like Nintendo right now, I gotta say.
“We're not that good at making our own so we have no choice but to do what the 3rd parties demand if we want to stay in this space.
And handhelds?! NEVER MIND. Then we'll have TWO of this kind of situation going on! How do you juggle THAT?”
I know. What will Nintendo do with a marginalized handheld division, let alone a non-existent one? And again; the whole premise of this thread is to force 3rd parties to choose Nintendo, all the while maintaining that they’re largely worthless. Why does Nintendo want this support again? Don’t look at me; I’m the one telling you that Nintendo need 3rd parties to reach the elusive market constant through software breadth.
“One company makes this crazy situation work & you know who I'm talking about.”
No, I don’t, actually. But there is one company that is currently not making anything work in the home console market and facing a decline in the handheld division that has been paramount to their previous success. Oh, I forgot, things are about to change when they sell 240 million home consoles in a few years.
Also; what makes you think that Nintendo can change consumer demands and habits? Because they managed to sway one group before? No, someone done stole their clothes while they were in the shower and they’re not keen on giving them back.
“They are not held hostage by the demands of the 3rd party & don't have to go beyond the tech curve wrecking their budgets to deliver a product.”
No, they are currently being held hostage by a home console with no audience and the added cost of HD development on par or slightly above that of the PS3/360 (no, low wattage or good watt-to-ghz ratio does not mean that development is cheaper) plus the extended development cycles that come with it ensuring they can’t throw out their famed 1st party software at a brisk enough pace.
“They concentrate first & foremost on making their product sell big while not putting them in the red ink with losses.”
Yeah, and that’s why they released two consecutive consoles sold at a loss from launch, with one of them set to remain in the red for perhaps another year (especially with further price cuts). Simply brilliant, John.
“They study where the market REALLY is”
And this is why the Wii U is currently selling insane amounts and has for some time. A product with a built-in time delay, how quaint! The market is moving further and further away from Japanese developer influence, this can easily be observed and is one likely cause for Japan showing such a diminished interest in home consoles compared to earlier years.
“It's smart business sense. Understand who you are & how the business that you're in works. And you will have lasting success.”
Brilliant business, losing money, marketshare and credibility, launch inferior online, adopt hardware that everyone else has abandoned to further alienate the developers who pay you royalty while taking on the development cost themselves. They understand who they are, to a fault; they just cannot fathom the modern market. They are a slave to their own tradition and this will ensure that they will have a very specific lack of success until they change their ways. Stale bread does not sell better simply by dying it Mario red.
“Dad knows JUST HOW MUCH to add & saves the rest for later. He knows the foolishness of overkill. He knows just where to be on the tech curve.”
Hmm, yeah, and that’s why adopting PowerPC in 2012 makes perfect sense. The Wii U will be literally the only electronic device on the market with this configuration before long, x86 became the standard a long time ago. It’s like they’re tripping themselves on purpose here. What about the foolishness of actively going against industry standards when the entire plan is to gain support in the long term?
“Dad” has a problem, a diagnosis; he’s just made a facebook account and is several years behind on most things. Hell, he probably still laughs at the cheezbrgr cat.
“Uncle Sony & Mr. Moneybags Microsoft let those brats get away with murder but they won't be pulling that crap at Dad's house, betcha that.”
He emotionally orphaned them through systematic abuse and is destined to drink wine on the couch alone for all his days, and has even tried to pay some kids allowance to get them back home, how “Microsoft-ish” of him (Platinum Games and Bayonetta). To top it all off, all this kid will do is shit on dad’s rug and make him look bad.
“They don't have to pay the bills. They don't have to pay the mortgage. They don't have to be a responsible member of the community.”
I’m sorry, isn’t part of the entire basis of your argument (running since 2006) that developers would collapse due to development budgets? How does that not constitute “paying bills”? Or have you changed the tune to be more tailored for exclusive Sony and Microsoft doom? Again with contradictions. If this is what you’re able to produce in three weeks, I almost feel bad for you.
If you want an actual debate, you can’t move and change the parameters as you see fit, it’s dishonest and promotes an intellectual vacuum.
“They don't have to make the machines & suffer the costs. They don't have to maintain the health of the overall business.
They don't have to worry about political fallout when Sub-Zero pulls a spine out by the head or when Hot Coffee scalds the lap of the business.”
Again, I feel like reminding you that the main part of your original argument since 2007 until today is that developers will also be fucked. They will also get spilled on, get their spines ripped etc. Stay on point if you want to make a point.
“The Kids got it lucky now. Back in the day Dad used to pull out the James Evans belt! Set them little brats straight, that's what he did.”
I wonder where all that resentment in the PS era came from? Such a responsible and benign father, this.
“Dad has always provided a nice environment for his Kids but do you think The Kids showed him any appreciation? Noooo.”
No, he hasn’t. Dad created and maintained a dictatorship and monopoly wherein no one could do something that Nintendo deemed unworthy, have you noticed how similar most of the games in specific genres were in the NES days? Scaring developers into never deviating from the approved recipes is just as bad as developers hedging their bets today; both are a form of creative oppression, whether it is self-imposed or effected by an external body, the result is the same and not healthy for a developer environment. Healthy for Nintendo’s wallet? Oh, yes.
“The 3rd parties made their names on Nintendo consoles.”
Yes, and they grew way, way beyond that on the Playstation, what does that mean?
“Nintendo Power promoted 3rd party games right in their magazine alongside their homegrown productions.”
Yeah, as long as the developers reached a high enough score and matched the arbitrary measures within which one would be deemed worthy. You could waste a year and a bunch of money on a production, only to not pass the “seal of approval” and be returned back to square one, only with money in the hole. And besides, it’s not like policy kept some real stinkers from appearing on the NES. Nintendo, in essence, controlled the gaming media back then, let that simmer the next time you accuse Sony and MS of buying off the gaming media.
“It's a lie to say that 3rd party titles can't sell against Nintendo's 1st party titles on Nintendo platforms.”
How will you ever prove that Call of Duty, GTA, Mass Effect or any other franchises can keep on selling like they do alongside Nintendo’s 1st party fare selling like they do? How does the NES show anything in this regard? Different time, different market, different conditions, these developers are unlikely to have ever produced games like those if there were only Nintendo platforms since 1983. You can’t state that this is a lie any more than I can state that about the opposite. Stalemate at best. Besides, as you mention farther down in your post; Nintendo weren’t making nearly as much effort back then because they didn’t need to, that has obviously changed and you even make it a big point at several stages later on.
Contradiction.
“The NES & SNES lists are dominated by 3rd party titles. By proportion, by prominence, & by sheer number.”
Uuuuh, duh? And why was that? It couldn’t be because Nintendo practically had a monopoly, right? This default and forced support also negated Nintendo’s actual need to produce as much 1st party fare and the proportionate lack of 3rd parties on N64, GC, Wii and now Wii U is directly in correlation with the massive sales and attach rates of 1st party titles. If the 3rd party support was on par with PS and xbox, the top 50 list would be more even but it is extremely unlikely that the numbers would be as high as they are now for each individual title, when the inverse is the norm.
“It's the 3rd party that created this situation. They stayed gone for so long; They dismissed Nintendo consoles for so long that they forced Nintendo buyers to gravitate heavier to Nintendo titles.”
Holy shit, you really don’t get it, do you? It was Nintendo’s own damn fault for driving the 3rd parties away with the lunatic policies and chase for monopoly. And they constantly fail to present a good developer environment, the Wii U is no different and it is paying the cost.
“Buyers didn't get hardly any fighters or RPGs from the 3rds in the N64 era so they got down with Super Smash Bros. & Paper Mario.
3rds didn't put any real effort behind sports titles on Nintendo platforms so the fans got down with Wii Sports & Wii Sports Resort.
They don't expect the 3rd party title to be done with the same care, with the same attention as they do it for the Sony & Microsoft platforms.
The 3rd party doesn't treat it as priority so why should the buyers?”
Self-defeating circle argument. Nintendo caused the problem in the 80’s and 90’s, 3rd parties left and didn’t come back. They made some attempts and were rewarded with poor sales, unless the topic at hand was dancing or similar things. Besides; this whole section defeats the previous ones; Nintendo’s 1st party titles would defeat the 3rd party effort with their quality, rendering the effort useless. Contradictions, John, contradictions.
“If the 3rd party quits treating Nintendo consoles as an afterthought, then their sales will improve.”
If Nintendo stops treating 3rd parties as an afterthought, then their support will improve. Besides, you’re still ignoring the concept of demographics, and at this point I’m assuming you’re doing it on purpose and for kicks, unless you subscribe to some crazy reality where you don’t “believe” in demographics, that is, surely that can’t be.
“Dad the Groundskeeper has provided a fertile enviroment for everybody to get their belly full but The Kids can't expect to be fed if they don't do any work in the field.”
As I have illustrated several times; this is just not remotely true. Nintendo have provided a massive funnel for their own software with hardware and software tying specifically into each other. An extremely egocentric platform, in most cases.
“Assassin's Creed 4 is a start & if certain 3rd parties continue to respect Nintendo platforms in this way, then they will receive the benefits.”
Yeah, and AC4 will likely be fairly deeply into the red for the Wii U version. Poor start and quite simply a perfect example of my point.
“But you can't quit after one time the game doesn't sell as well on a Nintendo platform if you keep continuing to make games for Sony & Microsoft platforms after your games don't sell well there either.”
Then there was the definition of insanity. And these aren’t games that don’t sell well on Sony and MS platforms; these are games that break records on their platforms. Damn, this paragraph doesn’t even make any sense.
“3rd parties in general can fail over & over again on a Microsoft or Sony platform & never feel they have to change course.
They just keep plugging away until they have a success. So why can't a Nintendo platform get this consideration?”
Somewhat true but what would change if they one more platform to fail on? That would lose them even more money. What you’re saying is that 3rd parties should be willing to fail on Nintendo platforms. I say; why the hell should they? Your whole case, and mine, revolves around the fact that Sony and MS actually make things easier for third parties, not harder.
“You know I used to buy into that big bad Nintendo theory of the NES days but the more I think about it, it's bunk.
Did Nintendo exercise tight control in the 3rd gen? YES. Was it necessary? YES. We just had a gaming crash.”
Yes, a crash caused by home console flooding the market. The amount of consoles spawned the quick cash-in shit games. This is not true today and has nothing to do with the 80’s crash. Besides; as mentioned, there were plenty of shit games on the NES. And, no, you never believed that.
“But at the end of the day nobody held a gun to these 3rd parties' heads & said you HAD to develop for a Nintendo platform.”
Because the market was positively teeming with alternatives, right? Don’t try to kid yourself or me. This is simply not true, Nintendo were already top dog both in Japan and North America when the original Master System released and the Atari 7800 had a bunch of delays, deflating the market interest and launched with primitive controllers that played, for the most part, shit games from the Atari 2600 through backwards compatibility. The 7800 didn’t even launch in Japan and was never a contender.
None of the two above were “major” competitors; the Master System managed about ¼ of the NES’ installed base in the end.
“That's not counting the home computer platforms of the era. There were other fishes in the sea.”
Home computer gaming at the time was a non-factor, it picked up considerable steam closer to the end of the 80’s though but never caught up to consoles. Consoles were a huge thing ever since the mid-late 70’s and the home computer was never that big in this era, not even close.
“If the 3rd party was that offended at Nintendo's rules, they could easily opt to build up Sega's system or Atari's system or any of the home computer systems out there at that time.”
Yeah, back to Atari, one of the main proponents of the great crash, that was a viable alternative. And as for the Master System; too late to the party, what would developers have done for a year on the North American market before the Sega released? No, they didn’t have much choice unless they wanted to altogether suspend production.
Besides, Sega was almost worse with licensing until 1988, they loosened the grip slightly to allow for a more friendly developer environment and they were rewarded with higher sales and better support for it.
“Nintendo created that money-making opportunity as they resurrected this business from the ashes & the 3rds wanted that money.”
Yes, Nintendo did offer an opportunity to make money and, yes 3rd parties wanted to make money. In the PS1-PS2 era they made a whole lot more money and with none of the chokehold through ridiculously stringent licensing policies. There was that problem with developer environment again, all Nintendo have shown is that are unable to provide a comfortable developer environment and they aren’t showing any signs of improvement either.
“Well there's no such thing as a free lunch. And if Nintendo took the risk of providing a hot platform to make big money, they SHOULD set the ground rules on how the opportunities are distributed.”
Ground rules are fine, dictating and oppressing is not, monopolies are bad in the long run for everyone besides the main beneficiary, business 101. The only advantages one could see are unified standards (Nintendo refuse those and will only except their own) and more streamlined production processes, this is pretty close to what the two other 8th generation consoles offer though.
“3rds wanted to reap the rewards without taking the risk & that ain't gonna fly with anybody. Opportunism.”
Opportunism, oh like that time when Nintendo through their monopoly terrorized developers and made a fortune on licensing fees without risking losing any money on botched development or sales flops? Gee, those were the days.
“Yeah, thanks to Nintendo's "dictatorship" the 3rd parties had an industry to sell their products in the first place. You're welcome.”
And thanks to Sony, those developers had a vastly bigger industry to sell a lot more product in. Yes, Nintendo did help the industry by providing an actual market but it was still a pretty unfair market and monopolies are never good and they did cause the 3rd parties to jump ship in the 90’s regardless.
“It couldn't have been THAT bad of a "dictatorship" when the home computer/PC developers started flooding Nintendo platforms with their games: Sim City, Populous, Doom, Ultima, Syndicate, Another World/Out of This World, Flashback, Prince of Persia, Civilization, Shadowgate, M.U.L.E., Skate or Die just for a handful of examples.”
Like I said; the home computer market was tiny at the time.
“In the 4th gen, they had the Sega Mega Drive/Genesis to get behind yet they still did business with Nintendo's "dictatorship".
Sega was still an unproven platform (1/4 of the NES ring a bell?) and had also had stringent policies in the mid 80’s to deter developers; of course they weren’t just going to switch like that. That would be as crazy as jumping into Nintendo’s boat again today. They did distribute their support more evenly though, as is also clearly evident in the relatively even sales of the Nintendo and Sega of that generation, so they did actually try to escape the Nintendo dictatorship as best they could.
“Nintendo didn't lose their ability to sell consoles & win markets. The 3rd party abandoned them & left Nintendo's library threadbare.”
Another self-defeating argument. When the majority of developers left, Nintendo lost their ability to win markets and the 3rd parties left because of them and headed for a lot greener pastures. How have you not been able to cram that into your head yet? Nintendo caused this themselves and made the whole thing worse by moving against industry hardware and format standards, clinging to the archaic cartridge and other solutions and refusing to embrace media playback and compatibility (ironically enough; in part to avoid licensing fees and royalties).
“Nintendo didn't rely as much on 1st party production in the NES & SNES eras because their 3rd party was so rich & varied.”
And that’s exactly what I’ve been saying. You’re sort of helping me along here.
“Whereas Final Fantasy used to be a landmark title of unparalleled quality now we get Final Fantasies that have to have do-overs like Final Fantasy XIV.”
Final Fantasy is shit today, I agree. But there is no denying that some of the FF games on Playstation 1 and 2 were pretty damn good, great even.
“However, in time it became clear that everyone had underestimated how much of the studio's success was down to Nintendo's gentle steering”
Yeah, sure, Rare have produced bad/mediocre games under Microsoft and are longing for different times. This speaks more to Rare’s inability to adapt to the market than it does of Nintendo’s “gentle steering” being a good thing overall. Rare also kept supporting Nintendo handhelds, by the way, so they have been experiencing trouble despite feeling the gentle caress of Nintendo all along.
“"Standard tech". This is a CONSOLE, Mummelmann. You're not supposed to just do the standard, you're supposed to MAKE the standard.”
From a position of absolutely no momentum and power, at that. “Making the standard “has never quite worked for them, seems to be a pretty poor strategy if you ask me, adopting one or more standards for ease of development is not stupid; it’s simply cooperation, and cooperation wins the day. Compromises, John, compromises don’t have to be your brand of Black & White, a tinged shade of grey wouldn’t kill anyone.
“You want a DVD player, buy a DVD player. This is a videogame console. Focus on games & games only first & foremost.”
Again, have you overlooked the fact that the Wii U is trying to be a PS/Xbox by offering a fairly wide variety of non-gaming features and services? We’ve also seen smartphones become less and less popular the more features they’ve implemented, haven’t we?
In principal, I agree with you but this isn’t how the market works today.
“So because the others are fighting this futile fight between Blu-ray & HD DVD does that mean that Nintendo should do the "standard" & fight in that battle too?”
This is about adapting certain standards, in architecture and format, doesn’t mean you have to participate in any battle, it was never theirs to begin with, and this is just a non-argument on your part. It’s about streamlining certain aspects of the development process. Oh, wait, I forgot you don’t believe in architecture that is hard or cumbersome to develop for. Besides, promoting a winning format was not futile, it was very deciding for Sony with their vested interest in the movie and music industry (yeah, they don’t make only hardware, maybe you didn’t know?) and will net billions in royalty in the long run, not to mention maintain a semblance of vital influence.
“Just because the others are using high energy consuming systems means that Nintendo should do the "standard" & make a high energy consuming system as well?”
Yeah, that’s what I said. Straw man alert, Mr. Lucas. How about a low energy consumption x86 unified chip with integrated GPU flow and quick RAM paired with decent cache, for starters, would probably cost less too since x86 is more or less the universal go-to standard today in most things besides mobile/tablet devices. You’re making it sound as if there’s only blue and red in the color spectrum here; this is exactly the kind of cheap rhetoric I mentioned in earlier posts.
“That they SHOULDN'T attempt to make a low energy consuming system?”
More developer friendly = high energy consumption by default. Glad we got that settled. This is, quite honestly, something you have very little knowledge about, that much is obvious.
“Just because the others are pretty much making stripped down PCs means that Nintendo should do the "standard" & make stripped down PCs too?”
With the Wii U’s architecture, Nintendo are making an even more stripped down PC built on dying hardware parameters with mediocre floating point performance, you really nailed that one.
“That they shouldn't remember that the entire purpose of a console is to DIFFERENTIATE themselves from a PC?”
When was that decided? Who said that? Isn’t the entire purpose of a console to be a platform for games? Who cares if the architecture is turning more similar to PC’s? Especially since it’s making development more and more simple, this is actually one of those cost reducing measures you’ve been seeking, embrace it! And besides; with the Wii U offering the same kind of non-gaming features as the others, isn’t it falling into the exact same category, only in a weaker form?
“What you say is just an elaborate version of "How come Nintendo can't be like everyone else?"
This is false, stupid and useless as an argument. It’s false because I’ve never implied that; what I’m proposing is that they make their consoles more alike so they don’t end up on the sideline with some eccentric lunchbox that no one wants to touch. It is mighty arrogant of Nintendo with their developer relations, to assume that they can dictate what a console is and should be.
Besides; as I’ve repeated several times already; the Wii U is headed in this exact direction on non-gaming content, how is that different and original? Oh, you can browse Netflix with the Gamepad! Wow! Groundbreaking design!
“I'll TELL you why. Because they are The Leader. They're not the Follower. They're the Pathmaker. The Standard SETTER.
What they do with the game controller & game design & business strategy HAVE set & CONTINUE to set The Standards for this industry.”
Is that so? Then why isn’t motion controls the standard in gaming? Why aren’t all consoles constructed in the same way? Why is no one developing games for them if they show the path? And how does “setting the standard for business strategy” tie into the others failing? So the strategy Nintendo teaches is causing the demise of the industry? All the woes befallen gaming is Nintendo’s fault? Or is this like “God created the world but is not responsible for Evil.”? They haven’t been setting standards since the SNES days, motion gaming was a tiny piece of curiosa on the PS3 and 360 and was never the standard.
Game design? How so? Because you dug up four-five games for Zod95 that are inspired by Nintendo published titles, that means they set the standard? Most games today are very far removed from Nintendo’s style, philosophy and standard, that’s even one of your main arguments; games need to be Nintendo in spirit and not the poor software we see today. Massive, massive contradiction here. This is grade A oxen feces, John, and you know it damn well, you’re spinning fantastic tales here. You’re right in one single thing in this bit; they are not followers, they do not know how to adapt to a market, as is painstakingly clear today.
You claim later on in your post that everyone “refuses to follow” this standard that Nintendo sets, doesn’t that effectively make it not the standard?
“SCREW the "Hardcore". None of that "Casual/Hardcore" mess is real anyway.
It's phony marketing talk that has no real grasp of the true demographics within the videogame business.”
The only one who doesn’t have a grasp on demographics here is you. How has the consumer electronics market grown so vast and diverse without demographics? Why don’t all TV shows appeal to everyone? Why aren’t all games selling equally well? All cars? Why don’t I play games on console anymore? Is it a marketing ploy fooling me into thinking I don’t like it?
You’re increasingly talking out of the proverbial posterior here.
“For "grown-up kids". Nintendo understands the reality of the child-at-heart & they are not ashamed in the joyfulness & playfulness of their games.”
Amazing, they’re the only ones who get it, aren’t they? Why is it categorized at all though? Isn’t that essentially dividing your software into demographics? This very paragraph disproves the point you’re desperately trying to make.
“They make games for EVERYONE”
No one does that, no one. And you know it. You think grandma wants to play Zelda? No one game appeals to everyone, just like no one song, no one movie and no one console appeals to everyone. The only reason you’re clinging to this like a sailor to a shipwreck at sea is that it is such an integral part of your naïve, childish, utopia of “the one platform”. You NEED to believe this in order for your weak points to hold any merit. Basing arguments on desire is not a good idea.
“It's that authenticity that makes me want to NEVER see Nintendo be like everyone else.”
What do you know; something we can agree on. But they could still keep on making amazing games on a console that had a more streamlined architecture, a more approachable media format for storage and a bigger hard drive. It wouldn’t be detrimental to their games; it could even greatly benefit them, most people seem to agree that the HD visuals and terrific frame rates go well with the fantastic Nintendo games; technological progress has its uses, John, and should be embraced!
But in your nostalgic blindness, you refuse to admit this.
“Oh & when you put down Just Dance, you're putting down the game that helped take Ubisoft to the top of the game developer/publisher world.”
Yeah because Assassin’s Creed, Splinter Cell, Rayman, TES and other titles had nothing to do with it? If you ask any gamer today; “what do you associate with Ubisoft”, very few of them are going to shout in glee; “Just Dance!” A whole lot will say “Assassin’s Creed”. That’s what really made them relevant as a whole, selling dancing games to a transitional audience that simply didn’t want to purchase any of their other franchises is probably why they lovingly didn’t screw Nintendo on Rayman last year.
If Just Dance was on the 360, you would have said it was completely irrelevant for the publisher.
Wait, does this mean that Kinect Adventures if the pinnacle of Microsoft Game Studios? I mean, it did sell over 20 million.
“If they got behind Wii absolutely with all of their franchises they might not have suffered those losses they did in recent years.”
“They might”, well I commend for at least for once having the balls to admit that this is all speculation. That’s the problem with most of your arguments; they’re largely based on desire, speculation, what-if’s or a combo of all. Most things that didn’t happen is of no interest in this debate and most others.
“THQ bought into that "standard tech" mess with Homefront running on Unreal Engine 3 & went out of business.”
THQ kept making a bunch of bad and mediocre games (along with Rare at some point, actually), this has nothing to do with borrowing the Unreal engine, THQ were struggling long before Homefront, it was simply the last drop. Homefront did okay in sales, THQ was too far gone to be salvaged at this point. This is beyond reaching. “Yeah, these guys made a game with outsourced tech and they went bust and that proves that all your arguments about 3rd party measures for cost savings are invalid” is what you’re trying to convey here, it seems. Context is king.
I’m pretty sure I could dig up hundreds of success stories based on good middleware and outsourced tech.
“Enough of this repetitive middleware garbage. That's why many of today's games are so samey samey all the time.
Production-wise, presentation-wise, subject-wise. All cut from the same cloth.
SOMEBODY has to dare to do something different & THANK GOD that company is Nintendo.”
Yeah, it’s not like Nintendo ever makes games that are “samey”, Ocarina of Time and Majora’s Mask were clearly widely different in all aspects. Super Mario 3D world does not in any way appear like the Galaxy games, NSMBU looks nothing like NSMBWii etc. This is probably the worst argument you can use against others when Nintendo are cutting more from the same cloth than most others in the industry and for a long time at that. Nintendo games are like Goths and Emos in this regard; they’re all “different” in the same way and that kind of defeats the purpose. You can’t rightly say that Nintendo are re-inventing the wheel on an annual basis here.
Disclaimer; I still their games are AMAZING though, make no mistake.
Why is it “THANK GOD that company is Nintendo” anyway? If it were someone else, it wouldn’t count? It wouldn’t be good for the industry or for you?
This is one of the things that annoys me so incredibly much about you; everything Nintendo is all good and everything else is all bad, it’s such a fantastically and comically naïve way of seeing things and you’re being about as nuanced as the music in Tetris in here.
“Jacking up console prices to $400, $500, $600. Making you pay an extra bill for online play when it used to be free.”
I’m glad you stopped at 400$, which happens to be exactly the PS4’s price point, 400 US dollars is the exact point where one has reached “cynical” status. And making people pay for a vastly superior online service? The audacity!
Charging money to have kids store their Pokemon online, now that’s how you play fair. How about charging extra for storage which you will need in order to be able to purchase digital copies? What about vastly overpriced controllers and games that almost never fall in price even after years on the market (changing slowly now but has been the norm for decades)?
Yeah, Nintendo does everything right, don’t they. It’s all love.
“Trying to restrict the purchase of used games. Trying to restrict the ability to share games.”
Uhm, how about no. None of that was implemented; the stupid hardcore gamers wouldn’t accept it.
“Disabling the ability for console to work offline. Microtransactions ruining the gaming experience.”
The consoles work offline, this is bullshit. Microtransactions are not mandatory, just like the Pokemon Bank from Nintendo, buddy.
“Commercials inside games. Advertisements on home screen of console. The abandonment of local multiplayer.”
Oh no, product placement! The evilness! Again, do I have to remind you that Nintendo have a long history of campaigning towards kids? You’re not even touching that, are you? You’re just trying to dig up more shit on the competition because you see that my argument has merit. Deflection all over the place. Abandoning local multiplayer? Coop games ring a bell? There a whole lot coop games available on PS3/360, even some constructed specifically with that purpose in mind (RE 5 and 6, Army of Two, as examples).
I love local multiplayer and so do you, that doesn’t make it the industry standard, there are those nostalgia goggles again. Online is where it’s at today, even Nintendo are starting to embrace that fact.
“Focus on superficial Achievements over the natural discovery within the gaming experience.”
100% agreed. This isn’t so much the evil of Sony and MS as it is developer standards though. I hate achievements and find them utterly useless; I’m guessing so do you.
“Building & releasing fragile shoddy consoles that overheat & chew up your game discs.”
Good ole bullshit right here, if you posted this single sentence in a short post where it actually stood out, you’d likely be banned.
The 360 had a horrible failure rate, true, but MS implemented one of the most costly insurance/warranty solutions in the history of electronics and took a huge loss as a result and their customer service got widespread acknowledgement for being world class in those trying times.
Some real evil on display.
“Nintendo does NONE of that & it seems like many people don't appreciate how they maintain videogaming's integrity.”
By clinging to nostalgia factor? By selling Pokemon Bank services to kids? By using archaic formats and solutions that causes a divide in the industry? By sticking to safe franchises instead of venturing into uncharted (yes, that’s a pun) lands? By charging ridiculous amounts of money for peripherals, controllers and games (some games remain full price a couple of years, you know else does that? Activision)? Their involvement with companies such as Foxconn, that have been known to make use of child labor and drive people to suicide with their work conditions, in order to cut back on manufacturing costs?
I’m not calling Nintendo evil, I’m simply pointing out that they aren’t flawless or perfect and no not possess an infallible moral and ethics compass that makes them better than others. They have skeletons in the closet like everyone else (Foxconn scandal being one of them, this one hit a lot of manufacturers pretty hard, perhaps Apple the most).
I’m not defending others’ practices, I’m criticizing some of Nintendo’s, and it’s just due at that.
“You know, I have seen this 'hip cynic' schtick before.
How it becomes cool to flippantly say "Yeahhh, they just want yer money. They're no different than the rest." as you contort your face into a joyless smirk.”
No, clearly, they are angelic elves who crap rainbows and sing joy into everyone’s heart. That’s what you make them sound like, anyway. They are not exempt from critique, not by a long shot.
“But the genuine still exists in this world. If it doesn't then this world is not worth fighting for. And Nintendo is genuine.”
And this is the gospel truth. How do we know that? Because John Lucas said it. This is merely your perception and view, nothing else. There are a lot of other gaming companies that are genuine.
“The people at Nintendo work for a living just like you & me.
But just because they earn a paycheck or salary does that mean they don't CARE about what they do?”
Holy fuckwads! And this applies only to them? So other developers and companies don’t care about what they do? I cannot fathom how you fail to see these double-edged sword arguments you’re constantly making. Kudos for a shout-out to Gabe Newell but that doesn’t help much.Hey John, what about Bill Gates’ incredibly sizeable charity donations? He could never care about what he does though, that’s certainly not why he dropped out of college and started tinkering full time with computers and coding.
This notion of yours that Nintendo are the only ones who enjoy making games, who care about gaming, is disgusting. Your above rant about stereotyping, hip attitudes and cynical views on companies works against you here; once again, you’re simply turning the argument around and sticking it to everyone.
You’re basically a pot and just called me black.
I’m not trying to make Nintendo look “cold-hearted”, I’m trying to tell you that they’re a company with an overarching goal to make money, like all other companies.
“You're paralyzed by your cynicism, Mummelmann. And somewhere in your life you thought it was smarter to dismiss the good & only see the bad.”
I could tell you that you’re paralyzed by your incredible naiveté and your failure to see nuances in the industry. And who the hell are you to tell me how I see things in life? So, I criticize Nintendo and point out their flaws, ergo I can only see the bad?
That is a very insulting generalization and one of those tools I mentioned to elevate yourself above me with no justification or reasonable explanation. And, no, I just realized it was smarter not to lift people, companies or oneself on a pedestal and that every coin has two sides, I stopped blindly doting, critical thinking was the one chief attribute all those great scientists, engineers and others you quoted and cited later on had in common.
“You were disappointed & disillusioned badly somewhere in your life & you can't believe that Genuineness still exists.”
What the hell is this bullshit? Are you for real? This is abnormal, even for the internet.
“Snarky cynicism becomes the order of the day as disbelief & disgust rule the psyche.”
Because you are in no way rude, snarky or patronizing in here, in this very sentence? You are the biggest narcissist I’ve had the misfortune of meeting on an internet forum, and that says a lot. Were you hoping to shoo me away with your “analysis” of my psyche? I think you’re just offended by me calling you out on your cheap rhetoric and religious tools of argument. This is just further proof. I called you out on it and you respond by further cementing it as a correct observation.
“Maybe I've stumbled upon the root of the hatred of what Nintendo does. Nintendo dares to show you the brighter day. The happy faces.”
I don’t think you understand my case at all. Where have I stated that I hate Nintendo? This is super cheap tactics to label me as a “hater”, thus rendering my arguments invalid. This is what youtube kids and one-liner hit & run posters do, you conceal it amidst all the other text though, kudos for that at least. Suddenly, I don’t feel so bad after all for getting a bit personal.
“I see the good & I welcome it openly, proudly, & loudly. I encourage it. I don't bend to the disbelieving crowd.
If I have to be one man against millions so be it. I will be that man & I will call for the brighter day no matter the obstacle.
Come out of the Crapsack World, Mummelmann. Everything is not done for a cynical end.”
Okay, I’m not even kidding you; you have a mental illness. This is not normal, you clearly see yourself as some sort of savior or messiah, this is deeply disturbing and I’m honestly shocked.
On commercials:
“Haha, commercials are quirky and unrealistic” as if that makes it more ethical to aim your advertisement at children.
“That's right, Mummelmann. While Sony & Microsoft focus on the product, Nintendo focuses on the PEOPLE.”
Or, they’re attempting to manipulate kids into buying consumer electronics as if they were adults, clever of you to snip away the rest of that paragraph. The rest of this section is loud noises about how magnificent Nintendo are and how cynical everyone else is, same old same old.
All I want is a simple answer. Did I say; “John, would you please offer me fifty paragraphs on how awesome Nintendo are (again) and how delighted you are at this fact?”
No, I didn’t, what I want to know is;
Is it ethical/moral to aim advertisements at kids? Is it more or less ethical than being superficial in your product presentation?
And don’t give me that hoo-haw about “for everyone”, these commercials often feature child stars from Disney or Nickelodeon and children are always the main characters.
They portray adults as goofs that serve the sole purpose of providing their kids with consumer electronics and the children are in charge. Commercials for toys, brand clothing for small children and other things are also revolting in my opinion, children should not be exposed to commercialism and capitalist consumer interest, and they should not be consumers at all.
Maybe I’m just being cynical again here, I dunno.
You show me a bunch of staged reactions to an older Wii commercial, get on point for once.
So why don’t you quit your pussyfooting and take a stance on the matter instead of rolling your face on the keyboard to impress your disciples? You’re avoiding all my main arguments!
“Here's a homegrown real life example of one of those ecstatic kids enjoying that magic Nintendo provides.”
Oh, the magic! You could dig up thousands of similar videos with kids unboxing a Playstation or a Xbox, what’s your point? Not to mention kids unwrapping an iPad or a smartphone.
“Now the costs of the components have gone down so it makes more sense to put out a Wii U with HD capability.”
Note that I chose to skip the nonsense preceding this sentence since it has nothing to do with the actual development costs on the Wii U, which was my point.
Yeah, price of components is down, and that goes for everyone else as well, do you know that the PS4 is more profitable than the Wii U, hardware-wise? And that’s with a lot more power as well, Nintendo made their console amazingly expensive and got very diminished returns (ooh, one of your favorite terms!!!) to show for it. And, yet again; I wanted you to explain to me how developers would save money by developing for another HD console? There’s nothing there that can’t be accomplished on PS4/One through scaling, with the added benefit of more unified coding and an installed base that actually purchase your games.
Once again, you’re simply avoiding the argument and giving me walls of text to distract. Get on point or go home.
“It was the tablet controller called the Gamepad that pushed Wii U to its unprecedented $350 launch price not necessarily the HD components.”
Yet another reason why the Gamepad was and is a bad idea.
“Why not put in 8K resolutions? Why not pack each system with a $1,000 for every buyer? Why not put in the moon AND the stars too?”
The biggest strawman so far, this still has nothing to do with the fact that the Wii U poses your perceived and oft cited threat of sky high development costs due to being HD. Stop deflecting.
“But because Nintendo did things the smart way & waited until the time was right, they do NOT have the same high costs for Wii U that Microsoft & Sony had for the 360 & PS3. It's all about balance.”
Fantastic, you’re not only failing to realize that the PS4 is more profitable than the Wii U despite more power and you still never addressed my actual point; developing HD games still requires a lot more premium than developing SD games, Wii U is a HD console, ergo; the development cost advantage is eviscerated. I’m stunned at your ability to dive headlong into nonsense and stay there in order to divert attention from actual arguments. This is low, low debate form right here.
And, no, the wattage of a chipset does not decide how much it costs to develop for it, not any more than how many copies you print.
“How many times do I have to say it? Wii was RED HOT as 2011 began.”
“A little "underpowered" SD console outdoing the big overpowered HD Twins one more time. All due to content. The games.”
It was beaten by both the PS3 and 360 in the holiday season 2011, for the first time (and I predicted it in mid-2010 btw), it stayed below and then ended up selling less than half of the PS3 pretty much from April 2011 and simply disappeared from the charts for good.
How the hell is that RED HOT anywhere? The most amazing thing here is going from outselling the competition combined and to being outsold by a single console 2:1 or more a couple of years after, no market leader has ever behaved that way and this extreme curve shows just how volatile transitional audiences can be in a market with longer cycles.
You remind me Adam Savage’s famous quote; “I reject your reality and substitute my own.”
“It had redefined the industry & set new standards which its competitors followed (Kinect & Move).”
To the point where no one is going for motion gaming as the primary; amazing influence. I’ve spoken my mind on Kinect in another post, Move falls into the same category.
If anything, Nintendo took the inspiration themselves from tablets with the Wii U, it is not an evolution of the Wii-mote; it is a (failed) attempt at reeling in the touch screen crazed consumer.
The competition never “followed” this “standard”, they made a feeble attempt at a quick cash-in and largely failed to make any impact, subsequently they moved away from the whole idea and back to standard controllers (the One has yet to show any gaming use of Kinect, it appears mostly as an interface tool and will likely remain that way).
“Nintendo got pigeonholed by the gaming press as "casual" when they have always wanted to sell to EVERYBODY.”
No one can sell to everybody, not even Apple at the prime of their run accomplished that, the market will always be divided, and that’s a good thing for consumers.
“You see that? They wanted EVERYBODY to play.”
Such a worthless argument, they wanted something but what happened? The whole console became irrelevant in the span of two years or less.
All these hindsight 20/20 nuggets of yours are a waste of time, saying that this or that “would have”, “could have” happened is worthless and has nothing to do with today’s reality and cannot in any way be proven.
“The 3rd party & their sympathetic gaming press wanted to diminish Nintendo's power with that erroneous "casual" label.”
Here’s a thought, John; what if I told you that not everyone in the gaming industry wants Wii Sports and Mario to be the pinnacle of gaming? What if people enjoy different things? Your continued insistence that there is no such as “casual” does nothing to change the fact that not everyone enjoys the same things you do. Like I’ve mentioned in another post; I would love for the industry to start pumping out isometric view RPG’s all the time but this is both impossible and unfair to gamers with different interests.
You claim that others invent and employ labels to fit their agenda; can’t you see that you’re fabricating your own reality and reject these labels for the sole purpose of fitting your bias?
“Nintendo got tired of that crap & started earnest work on Wii's successor despite Wii still being on fire in the market.”
We already established that John; it was not on fire, it was in a severe and unprecedented decline.
“In addition they knew that the REAL competition no longer resided in Sony & Microsoft but from OUTSIDE the console gaming world by Apple through its iPhones & iPads & by Google through its Android-powered smartphones best represented by Samsung Galaxy.”
Yeah, and that’s why they waited so long, to up the suspense, right? No, they were caught off guard because the mobile/tablet tidal wave came from the West and they have no sense of direction there any longer. The Wii U was a disaster when it came out; the OS was historically slow, they released the ridiculous Basic package that made it practically impossible to use the online store, most of the features weren’t up and running, no proper account system and very few significant games for a long time; all signs point toward the fact that this was not an elaborate plan.
Hell, the misguided Gamepad is all the proof you need.
“3DS was to ensure the continuation of handheld console gaming as smartphone/tablet gaming represented the reemergence of the PC, a fight Nintendo had 25 years prior with the NES ensuring the continuation of home console gaming during the emergence of the PC gaming platforms of the 1980s.”
No, it represented a market convergence and simultaneous emergence the likes of which the world had never seen and that many, including Sony and Nintendo, tried to emulate. This is a brand new beast for the fables, not a re-imagining of old sheet costume ghosts that scared no one in their time.
The electronics business, in a mostly united effort, divided by zero and created the fastest selling, highest grossing, most versatile and most convenient product line in human history. I’m not a fan personally, that does not diminish the impact of this sensation, there has quite simply never been anything like this before.
“Seeing all this they designed Wii U to be a multi-strike for all of its competitors: Sony, Microsoft, Apple, & Google.
They wanted to create a unique home console experience that tablet lovers could fancy while simultaneously ending the 3rd party standoff that have long stymied Nintendo's libraries forcing Nintendo to do all the heavy lifting.”
They designed a confused machine that wasn’t poised enough to conquer either market and with a lack of streamlined architecture, going against the present and future industry standard by adopting chipsets that are more or less being phased out in PC, console and mobile markets, thus creating an obstacle for developers, yet again. The Gamepad also means that developers need to put extra effort into making something special to implement it properly and justify the very existence of the thing; meaning that they both have to redo all the code to run on PowerPC and program unique features for a non-standard controller device, and all this on a tiny installed base that refuses to purchase their games in meaningful numbers and at full HD cost for rendering and processing. Shit, what an incredibly clever plan.
“Yes it was planned. Nintendo halted the hot Wii”
No, it wasn’t, the Wii U was an unfinished mess with no decent games for nearly a year when it came out and the Wii was dying before Nintendo chose to jump behind the couch and hide, Nintendo were in no way in control over this situation. This is just your frantic rationalizations covering the fact that Nintendo blew it with the Wii’s longevity and failure to attract support and keep their audience enthralled.
“They killed Wii because they couldn't afford to be fighting off their own phenomenon.”
No, the market killed the Wii and Nintendo watched in stunned silence, and there really wasn’t much of a phenomenon left to fight either.
“They needed people to buy the new Wii to finish what the old Wii had started.”
No, they hastily slapped together a box comprising of a few market driving features, added a “U” to the name because they were becoming completely irrelevant in the home console market due to a lack of lasting appeal. It was so hasty, in fact, that no one even realized the thing released, it was the marketing equivalent of waking up as you pee yourself and there is still confusion around the product after over a year on the market. Not one single indicator of a grand plan anywhere in sight.
“I myself think their execution of this strategy was rough & wonky. That's why Wii U struggled in 2013.”
It was rough and wonky because there was no strategy. Literally the only strategy here was “release first and hope for the best”.
“Just because Nintendo sees the emergence of the new PC market in smartphones/tablets & the continued obstinance of the 3rd parties doesn't mean they made the move out of desperation. Every action has a reaction. This is basic physics.”
It’s not the new PC market; it is an entirely new and unseen market alongside the PC and console market. The PC market is still alive and kicking and has actually grown in the last five years, at the same time the mobile/tablet market emerged. And that is why there is no room for poorly planned and executed imitations, as the charts are showing us, the Gamepad is being compared to proper tablets and found to be severely lacking, this is a behemoth problem you will never ever admit exists. It was desperation and still is. Nintendo reps like Reggie has even slung mud at the competition lately, and that never happened in the 7th gen, their tone has changed.
“Nintendo saw what was on the field & made a strategy. Strategies are PLANS. They weren't scrambling to put Wii U out.
They were in control.”
No, they did not. Yes they were. No, they were not. And there is absolutely no grounds what so ever to make such a claim, it’s all in your head.
“Anybody who observes Nintendo long enough knows that they ALWAYS work from long-term visions & strategies.”
So the 1994 to 2006 era was just a long-term plan to win the lottery with the Wii? No, it was a giant fumble, just like now. You’ve observed them so long and so intently that you’ve gone and contracted tunnel vision.
“What was done with DS & Wii was put into plan YEARS before those systems arrived.”
100% agreed, and the sales reflected it, the Wii and DS were both a stroke of genius. See the problem here?
“Because I'm human, Mummelmann. I don't know everything.”
You could have fooled me, that’s certainly not the way you come off in here, and that is one of the primary reasons why I’m bothering with all this, you’re acting as if you’re some prophet, or even Jesus himself in here, it’s fascinating and terrifying all at once.
“I know a LOT about the gaming business but I'm always a student of the game.”
Do you? You think development cost ties to the number of copies printed, you don’t believe in architecture flaws/advantages, you refuse to acknowledge that demographics are a factor in a business setting, you believe that your electrical bill affects the development cost of games and you see conspiracies, invent terms and entire markets (PC reemergence) and overall display a total lack of understanding across several fields.
You’re a decent, albeit predictable, writer but you don’t know how to conduct a debate, you deviate and rant and avoid the main points.
“Teachers are Students at the same time.”
The only thing you’re teaching anyone in here is that you really, really, really love Nintendo, to the point where it could be dangerous to your health.
Your part on failing to the Wii’s plan is a mastodon self-indulgent monologue with no relevance to the discussion, more text to detract from the matters at hand. You’re not exciting enough that I want to spend fifteen minutes reading about your subjective romance with the Wii from 2005 and I don’t care to waste time talking about failed predictions that you’re constantly deflecting.
“"Casual gamers". These guys are STUCK on that phony catchphrase!
NO...SUCH...THING as a "Casual Gamer". NO...SUCH...THING as a "Hardcore Gamer". STOP THIS. ENOUGH.”
The bossman has spoken. The only reason you’re opposed to this terminology is that it implies demographics and demographics denote the clear separation of markets and consumer interest, which in turn renders your “one platform to rule them all” illusion completely useless as a concept. Wanting something to be a certain way doesn’t make something so; you operate under your personal desire, nostalgia, elitist notion of being smarter, better and having superior tastes, not knowledge or insight.
“Nintendo aims AS ALWAYS for an EVERYBODY market. This never changes even if the strategies to obtain it do.
EVERYONE, say it with me Mummelmann. EVERYONE. Not Casual. Not Hardcore. EVERYONE. Understand reality not marketer speak.”
This is your particular brand of marketer speech. That’s what you are; a peddler of ridiculous, unfounded notion with a head at least three sizes too large, I’m surprised you fit into the atmosphere. You presume that you can dictate the opinion, movement and even language of an entire industry; that requires delusions of grandeur so vast that it goes far beyond my understanding.
“Can Nintendo survive the re-emergence of the PC gaming market through the tablets & smartphones?
Yes & they're doing it now with 3DS.”
Repeating your tired credo of “reemerging PC market” doesn’t make it fact, unless you find yourself a genie to aid you on your quest. The 3DS you say? The very same one that is set to sell about 85-95 million and represent a massive decline in the dedicated handheld market (see my post on 3DS/Vita/Wii U)? The Vita was killed first for being closer in concept to the new convenience handheld market, the 3DS has a little more time but will also be consumed.
“They did it nearly 30 years ago with the NES as the home computers, the personal computers of that era disrupted consoles the first time.”
You and I are both old enough to know that home computer gaming market, at the time, was tiny. Approaching and into the late 80’s only 15% of American homes had home computers and out of those, not all were used for gaming, Amiga and Commodore did fairly well, the Commodore managed about 800k in its best year. There was no real challenge in this market, not only due to low penetration rate but also due to lack of practical formats to deter piracy (CD-ROM, that showed up in 1985 took a long time to become standard) and any kind of developer ambition on the platform.
Today’s mobile/tablet industry is enormous, with about 900-950 million units sold in 2012, that is close to 1/7 of the world’s population, in one single year. These feeble comparisons hold no merit, you have no idea what you’re talking about and are just attempting to disarm the mobile/tablet threat by likening it to a situation Nintendo overcame decades ago. Wake up, John.
“The game console should have LONG been dead & buried. Nintendo is who keeps it alive.”
Yes, we owe them for helping the industry in the 80’s, that is truly undeniable. Nintendo “keeping it alive” today though is a stretch at best. Have you forgotten how utterly irrelevant the N64 and GC were or are you pretending those years never happened?
“There are critical flaws in the business models of browser games, social network games, & tablet/smartphone app games.”
I know there is, I don’t need you to school me on that. It’s a brand new market, like home consoles were in 70’s, with time it will stabilize and market constants will become easier to aim for. Another 3-5 years for the mobile/tablet market to come into its own as a gaming alternative, you claim to be knowledgeable yet you fail to see this, or is it on purpose (like the willful ignorance you’re showing all over the place)? I think you’re just hoping that no one with an ounce of sense in them will take their time to penetrate this shroud of cheap tactics. A large part of the problem has been weighting systems and massive royalties (Apple have been the worst by far here), presenting a pretty poor developer environment, this is slowly changing though. Give it time and give these silly arguments a rest.
And, no, a new market does not a crash to set it straight; these flawed business models are not an indicator of a crash.
What you’re seemingly suggesting is that browsers, phones/tablets and social networks will cease to exist, or at the very least lose all relevance as a gaming alternative practically overnight and all at once; I don’t really feel that I need to point to you or anyone else how unrealistic that is.
“Hmmm...this is beginning to sound familiar. Didn't something like this happen around 1983? Haven't we been here before?
Who reversed this madness? Oh yeah, that's right. That little playing card company from Kyoto again.”
Yeah, sure, an industry based on the most prevalent means of communication in human history compared to the over flooded North American market of home consoles in 80’s with crap content, it’s the exact same thing. You’re implying that the fucking mobile industry will collapse, John, step back and look closely.
Again, all you’re doing is attempting to disarm this growing industry because you sense the very real threat is poses, you’re behaving somewhat like the Sony fanboys were with the Wii; “it will never last, going to collapse, doesn’t matter, other swill prevail in the end, poor content” etc. only this isn’t going anywhere, unless you think that people are going to start carrying their Wii U’s with them instead of mobile phones and tablets, that is. I wouldn’t even be surprised at this point.
You’re coming off as desperate, John, the lines of “laughter”, the prepubescent emoticons, it’s the text equivalent of a nervous laugh, tinged with deep concern.
“Same with DICE who was virtually PC-only up until the early 2000s. Then they let EA buy them out & started focusing on the consoles.”
EA and Activision represent the annual release crew; they want product volume, first and foremost. Developing and releasing on unified architecture and with a proven, somewhat simpler, audience makes a lot of sense for such a strategy. And who in the world ever claimed that EA out of everyone are representative of smart of just development culture? There are still heroes on the PC market, Paradox, Valve, Blizzard, Ubisoft, Firaxis, CD Projekt, Maxis, NC Soft, Firefly and more.
And DICE, Bioware (under EA, of course) and Activision still support PC as a platform. I know you want all platforms except Nintendo to go away but it’s not going to happen.
This argument is invalid.
“The publishers and the managers at the company he works for are terrified of piracy. They delay the PC version of their game because there is a section of the gaming audience that would prefer to download the game for free rather than buy it. If the PC version is available, it will be cracked and shared. If there is no PC version, there will be some piracy, but not at anywhere near the scale of what they regularly see on PC...”
Oh no, piracy! This has been “killing PC gaming” since the 80’s. It was also very widespread on the 360 and the Wii, they did okay. You’re just regurgitating what you’ve read on your Nintendo sites and don’t really have anything groundbreaking or fresh to contribute to this stale topic.
“That's why the PC guys keep creeping over to the consoles.”
That certainly sounds like a claim that warrants proof.
“But you gotta understand that both Sony AND Microsoft are lost without Nintendo's cultivating & steering this console business.
Sony & Microsoft are eating from the meals Nintendo cooks up.
The King of Consoles has always been Nintendo ever since the 1983 Crash.
They resurrected the business from certain death & sustained the business for 3 decades heading towards the 4th. It's THEIR business.”
It was their business and then they got outdone in the mid 90’s and fell on really hard times, they are once again falling on hard times and aren’t in any way guiding, steering, cooking or owning the industry now, not even close, this is a ridiculous claim. I guess you could say it about dedicated handhelds but certainly not home consoles.
Sheer and total hogwash.
“Nintendo doesn't layoff anybody. You have never seen it. And their sales keep getting stronger & stronger over the generations.”
Oh, so the continued downwards curve from NES and up to and including the Gamecube was merely an illusion? You’re taking the piss right here, this is so easily falsified that I don’t even understand why you wrote it. Were you hoping I would miss it amidst all the mindless filler text. The Wii saw a rise in software and hardware sales, breaking an ongoing cycle and now Nintendo is plunging into the old sequence again, the Wii was an anomaly and not the Nintendnorm (yeah, I just made that up right now, catchy eh?) since the NES/SNES transition.
“Why wouldn't they emulate Nintendo instead of oppose them all the time?”
Has it ever occurred you that not everyone in the world wants to make Nintendo games or Nintendo-like games? And Nintendo are the ones doing the opposing here with their abject refusal to conform to a single standard, always maintaining the vain notion that they can somehow dictate the entire market, not unlike yourself, come to think of it.
“Nintendo is teaching you how to run a Videogame BUSINESS.”
By losing Wii momentum at a record pace, failing to garner any support even in a market leading position and releasing two consecutive consoles at a great loss, one of which is utterly failing on the market? I think the teacher has done sipped the whiskey, my friend.
“The new PC market of the tablets & smartphones show their weaknesses.
The old PC market of the desktops & laptops show their weaknesses.”
Yes, they do, no doubt, but so do Nintendo; it’s playing out before our very eyes if you but open them and stop the hysterical doting for a second. And, for the 1000th time; it’s not the new PC market.
“You see it as the "casuals" running away. You see it as Nintendo "jumping in" to the tablet sector. I see the truth. It's called UNITY.”
Ah, the truth, property of John Lucas. I’ve seen your truth many times before, it just so happens that this is yet another figment of your admittedly illustrious imagination. See, this is the kind of pompous tosh that vexes me and it will make you look very, very stupid in time. Hell, it’s making you look stupid right now.
“And from the articles I have shown you (a mobile developer talking about license fees! ha!), you see that UNITY is inevitable.
Nintendo provides the gravity which keeps the industry from floating out to outer space. This has always been THEIR business.”
No, it shows me a man trying to justify and rationalize his wild beliefs by purposefully showing complete ignorance of all market concepts, segments, transitions and solutions. You cherry pick articles that confirm your bias, I could do the same but I’m not one to let you dictate the premises of debate and I don’t work that way, I’ll let the charts do the talking in time, I’m not going anywhere.
Prolonged market segregation is the only inevitable thing in this picture.
“The other flaw of those new PC gadgets, the tablet & smartphone, is their form factor. They don't lend themselves to much change.
Tablets can never be more than those notebook-sized rounded rectangles.”
Says who? With pliable screen tech like OLED and other, as of yet unseen, solutions, there’s nothing stopping other shapes and forms from appearing, the hardware can fit any shape you want as well. The main reason why the shapes are similar is design trend, the car industry built bulky iron squares in the 80’s due to design trends, not because it was impossible to construct them otherwise. And the sizes are all over the place, there are a myriad of options here, too many in my opinion. Besides, the Gamepad is just a poor man’s tablet at any rate, so there’s that.
This is an idiotic argument at best. And; NO, they are not new PC gadgets, they are a new and never before seen market.
“Yes. When games were fun. When companies made good stuff. Good. Fun. Why should anybody have a different taste than that?”
Who in the world ordained you with the right to judge what others should find entertaining? Can you wrap your head around the concept of people who find Mario Kart, The Witcher, Team Fortress 2, Gran Turismo, Zelda and a bunch of other games and franchises to be amazingly entertaining? I’m one such guy. What the hell kind of insane elitism are you trying to impose upon me and others here?
Is this in line with Nintendo’s thinking, the best philosophy? “Quell the desire to play other types of games, this is foolishness and is not compatible with my personal tastes” This is what the Wii haters said back in the day; “The Wii is stupid and for casual, simple-minded people, I hate it and want it to not exist.” I should know, I was one of them for some time. You’re no better and are doing the exact same thing, all the while maintaining the horrible narcissistic notion that you can somehow decide what is in everyone’s best interest. Are you fucking kidding me right here?!
This is among the most dense gibberish I have had the displeasure of reading on the internet, on the internet, dude.
“I don't necessarily hate the mobile platform & I am always open to any avenue a developer can have to express his/her vision.”
Clearly not, you want a dictatorship/monopoly where developers are restricted by the platform provider in their scope and vision, and you don’t respect differences in taste and preference.
This is another gross contradiction to your main argument, John.
“Rovio is wising up when you see them put out Angry Birds Trilogy on 3DS, Wii, & Wii U.”
Yeah, they are being rewarded with a massive 480k total sold till now across three platforms and several games, earth-shattering stuff, I must say. I’m glad they wizened up seeing as how they had only a paltry 2 BILLION downloads across the mobile/tablet sector. Nintendo got them out of a bind there, thanks y’all.
“I have seen a number of the mobile/web games be put out on Nintendo platforms like Wordjong, Cake Mania, Plants vs. Zombies, Bejeweled.”
Yeah, Wordjong has moved a massive 300k on the combined installed base of the Wii/DS (that’s 250-260 million units right there), Cake Mania has moved about 450k across Wii/DS and over 5 games, Plant vs Zombies did good on the DS but a whole lot better on the Appstore, iOS downloads alone were 300.000 day one, Bejeweled has about 400k of its 100-200 million (hard to estimate) sales on Nintendo platforms, the highest selling 250k lifetime on the DS.
These games only prove one thing; Nintendo’s handhelds are irrelevant in software such as this. This is probably one of your worst arguments, and that’s really saying something.
“Those who you call "my disciples" see it too. That's why they give me props on my words here.”
No, I’m guessing they don’t even read your entire posts. The reason they’re applauding you is that they are unable to form any arguments of their own, so they nod their heads and clap their hands, I suddenly got to thinking about those “clucking hens” you once mentioned on someone’s wall, this is the very definition of that. Oh, and don’t worry, they don’t read my entire posts either so they won’t read this bit and be offended, they’ll shake their heads at me and point out that my “arguments are flawed”, I have “faulty logic” etc. With their standards for flawed arguments and faulty logic, I really can’t blame them though, they obviously don’t know any better.
“They ALSO want Nintendo's standards to be the Rule not the Exception. Mummelmann, you should want the same too.”
Again telling what I should want and think, this is a horrible attitude, and you call me a cynic.
“That escapism. That fantastic fantasy world of Virtuality we use to escape the drudgery we sometimes see in Reality.”
I find that solace and escape in other games from other developers as well, why can you not understand and respect that?
“You don't want Hollywood schlock? You don't want Hollywood fake? Then keep it real & get behind The N.”
Contrasts, that’s all there is, isn’t there? You always assume that there are only two choices. I choose to stay away from Hollywood and stick to the games I do enjoy, a lot of them happen to be non-Nintendo and that should be perfectly acceptable.
You want an actual cultural dictatorship, and you complain about Sony and MS’ practices? Preposterous.
“I'm going to show you exactly how Nintendo expanding the audience with Wii & DS went MUCH further than Sony expanding the audience with PS1 & PS2.”
Yeah, that’s all fine and dandy but what’s the point when 40% of the DS base and 75-80% of the Wii’s base are gone? Transitional audiences don’t offer lasting growth, they move their money around, climbing rung after rung on the ladder of perceived value, and I rather like my term “entertainment nomads” to cover this base.
“So we see figures within the upper portion of the 200 million to 300 million range when the PS1 & PS2 came out compared to the near 500 million when the Wii & DS came out. WHO couldn't expand the gaming audience beyond the PlayStations now?”
And who are unable to keep their customer base, causing all that growth to dissipate like morning mildew before the sun? *laughing emoticon*
“The 4th Generation had console sales of 235.79 million & both PlayStations only took it to 270.83 million in the 5th & 298.31 million in the 6th.”
And I assume you were going to mention the fact that there were 4 home consoles and 4 handheld consoles in the 4th gen? And what about the PS2’s unprecedented 75% marketshare and software sales? Kind of defecates all over anything in the amazing 4th gen, doesn’t it? See, even when you compliment something non-Nintendo, it’s always underhanded and you constantly omit vital information to help your case.
“When the PlayStations dominated they did it with the help of every 3rd party developer backing them up.”
What a truly evil thing they did. You’re just angry that the 3rd parties left your darling hanging and caused them to stumble headlong into obscurity. A company with no gaming pedigree shaming the mighty Nintendo, unheard of, such gall.
“You're wrong about me not giving the PlayStations credit.
Without the PlayStations we wouldn't have media player functions as default in our consoles today.”
The very functions that are causing consoles to lose their aim and focus and turning them into “stripped PC’s”? Is this suddenly a good thing now, I’ve lost count of how many contradictions you have produced and I frankly no longer care.
“But it's exactly that lack of gaming background which causes them to miss the point of what a console is supposed to be at root.”
Aaaand he’s back. See, I knew media options were a bad thing.
“The 3rd parties not rooted to Nintendo's guidance made everything look like graphically intense blockbuster movies & nothing but.”
Yeah, no one has the mind or talent to make good games without Nintendo holding their hand and everyone is making Call of Duty (?).
“The side features, the bells & whistles began to take precedent over the focus on the game.”
Lo and behold, another thing I can get behind. The worst part for me is the chase for connectivity, social integration and trophies. Then again, I realize full well that this is what the market wants and what is required to keep these customers sated so my personal opinion doesn’t matter. See how that works? My personal opinion doesn’t dictate others! Wow!
“That's why they underpromote Nintendo TVii on the Wii U despite it being a pretty decent service.”
A pretty decent service; always nice to have.
“Gamers have approved things that are fatal to the business.”
Fatal? Not quite with you. Detrimental? No doubt, this lead directly to microtransactions and pay-to-win, and, of course, the Pokeman Bank!
“Some gamers fit the mindless consumer stereotype. And the sleazy execs bank on their lack of discernment to sell them bad practices.”
You mean parents that go and buy a console for their kids just because they said they wanted it after seeing a commercial? Or people who pay massive amounts of money for peripherals and controllers? Perhaps even people who make use of the Pokemon Bank? I’m yanking your chain. Still something to think about; Nintendo have the most expensive peripherals and controllers in the biz, is that fair to consumers? Where’s that sweet Nintendo love? Or is it simply that with Nintendo products, the price is justified?
“A CUSTOMER looks over the product with a critical eye checking for quality & usefulness before they buy in.
Consumers are open-mouthed slaves who mindlessly consume.”
Hmm, those pesky consumers almost sounds like people who fall for viral marketing, you know; running out to buy things because they fall for the hype of their friends’ enthusiasm and word of mouth. This is starting to counter the point you’re trying to make, John.
“You saw from the opening post of this thread how I didn't automatically jump in with the 3DS & Wii U just because Nintendo made it.”
Yeah, I was shocked and amazed. How do I know that this is even true? I have a hard time “taking someone’s word for it” on the internet.
“My love for Nintendo was EARNED, Mummelmann. They kept showing me that they have the customer's best interests in mind.”
And a lot of the love for Microsoft and Sony was earned. For me, even though I’m no longer fond of the Playstation brand, I do enjoy Sony’s other hardware, they made some great MP3 players, TV’s and phones. Is that somehow invalid because it’s not Nintendo? You can’t understand how anyone can appreciate other things than you, can you? I don’t think I’m the one with the limited vision here.
“High quality games, durable lasting consoles, fairer prices, smarter market directions, integrity of product & presentation.”
High quality games: yeah, but they exist on other platforms as well.
Durable lasting consoles: I’ll give them that one; there has been some clank and rust with the others for sure.
Fairer prices: disagree, their consoles usually cost less but peripherals and controllers are insanely expensive and the games almost never go down in price, back in the day, N64 games in Norway cost over 50% more than PS games. You’re seeing the cost of the console, there’s more to it than that.
Smarter market directions: Okay? Is the epic low of the N64 and GC a part of this? Losing all their juice with the Wii? Creating a console that has no appeal in any market segment?
Integrity of product: Sure, I agree.
Presentation: Highly subjective.
“Remember I told you I once wanted a PS1 & a PS2. Reports of PS2's fragileness cooled me off of buying that PS2 no matter how much I wanted to play those PlayStation games. I was not a consumer. I used my head & fought off the flighty 'gotta have it!' impulses.”
So, going by your definition a few paragraphs back, everyone who bought a PS1 and PS2 were mindless morons? That’s amazingly narrow-minded of you.
“When Sony did what they did with the PS3, my want for any PlayStation waned entirely.”
So did mine after a short while. But, let’s be honest here; you never really wanted a Playstation, this is simply an alibi so you can feel entitled to your baseless generalization of the brand and the people who like it. I see right through you.
“Add in the waning quality of gamecraft from the 3rd parties supporting Sony & Microsoft & you see how my support of Nintendo got stronger.”
And you can’t understand why I went PC? It has given me such an amazing experience; I see no reason to ever go back.
“it made me long for the return of Sega & the Dreamcast. Competition with the RIGHT principles.”
And an easier opponent for Nintendo to beat? Sounds about right. You long for the days when Nintendo was guaranteed to dominate and had close to absolute power.
“Just like it was in the Genesis days when I played with my downstairs neighbor. Sega was a GAME company & respected GAMES.”
Like Nintendo then? Hmm, strange, I seem to remember that Sega fell hard on their ass in the 90’s and never made another console? That can’t be! With un-evil business comes great success! You taught me that!
“You think it was personal when I made my prediction on Metal Gear Solid 4 going to the XBox 360 instead of the PS3.
That could have very well happened.”
There was no reason to think that it would. Multiplatform; granted. 360 exclusive and an unproven audience, no presence in Japan and with a manufacturer with no ties to Konami? Incredibly unlikely. Impossible, even.
“Look at what happened to all the promises from the 3rd parties on the Wii U for instance.”
Oh, come on; stop playing the victim, Stevie Wonder saw that shit coming from halfway across the globe.
“Square shocked everybody when they uprooted Final Fantasy VII from the Nintendo 64 & moved production to the PlayStation.”
And that was a very smart decision, they sold almost three times as much as the bestselling ever on a Nintendo platform at the time and the PS1 was already dominating by the time it released. Made heaps of sense, your MGS4 nonsense did not.
“The PS3 lost Sony billions within its first 2 years. The console wrecked Sony Computer Entertainment severely.
This wasn't some grudge from the mid-1990s. It was a practical call in the wake of bad business done by Sony on the PS3.”
And Nintendo have paid are continuing to pay for theirs with the 3rd parties. Comeuppance, I believe is the term. No different. Companies get stupid; others get stupid with them. All that talk about physics and every reaction has an opposite reaction, you know, like you mentioned earlier in your post.
“It's only personal in the aspect that I CARE about the videogame business & what harms the business reduces the ability for videogames to reach those who care about them. I like to play videogames. I like this medium. I like this pastime.”
And I don’t? I’ve been gaming for 25 years, starting with Commodore 64, NES and Amiga 500 and a 286 PC. I love gaming, why do you think I’m still doing it even though I’m almost thirty?
“So those who protect & preserve this business, this medium, this pastime, I'm gonna root for.”
And that’s why I’m the biggest Valve fan in the world. They move all the parts forward and take great risks for the benefit of consumer and developers without sacrificing technological advancement and compatibility (they have even made Mac a better gaming platform).
“And I don't believe in "Non-Gamers", Mummelmann.
How could you say this when I consistently reject the labels of "Casual" & "Hardcore"?”
Because I don’t care what terms you reject and not? I’m not going to adjust my language to better suit your taste, I’m arguing with you, remember? You’re constantly attempting to set the parameters for the debate by using these cheap, transparent tactics.
You know I’m not dumb enough to fold on such weak grounds.
“And because I don't believe in this concept of "Non-Gamer" means that I DIDN'T resent the emergence of the PlayStation when it expanded the scope of gaming. I don't resent the emergence of the smartphones & tablets as a gaming platform. I don't resent the emergence of the browser based games. I don't resent Steam as a platform. I didn't resent Nintendo's Touch Generations titles like Brain Age & Wii Fit when it brought people who never played games to the pastime.
The more gamers the merrier.”
And yet; you recent the idea that some have the audacity to develop and enjoy games that aren’t in Nintendo spirit? How does that work? You pretend to be accepting and open and then you turn and start shouting about how I should desire a monopoly and how everyone should like the same games you do. This is a gigantic contradiction, John.
“If those who label themselves "The Hardcore" believe that these things should be done to Nintendo, then they DO need to go home.”
Can’t speak for others, but I don’t think anything should be “done to Nintendo”. Because I’m not a childish close-minded hatemonger who tries to dictate others people’s taste, terminology and perceived entertainment value. I might frown upon people spending 500 days in World of Warcraft or 2000 hours on Farmville, that doesn’t mean I think they shouldn’t be allowed to enjoy it.
“When I first came to VGChartz back in 2007, I saw myself as one person among many speaking his own point of view in the midst of the crowd.
I expected disagreement, dismissal, disgust, rejection, revulsion, ridicule as possible reactions to what I wrote & I was fine with that.
I am just one out of many. Why should my words count more than anyone else? We are all equals here each with our own point of view.”
That is certainly not the way you come off.
“I offered my views & put 'em on the table where readers could choose to accept or reject.”
How nice of you, allowing them the choice. And it’s not like you label people who disagreed as “haters” or “non-believers” and other assorted religious derogatory terms. You had a horrible attitude then and you have a horrible attitude now, not an ounce of humility and acceptance of different views.
“My favor here at VGChartz was EARNED”
Yes, much like a man with a harmonica can become a hit at the mental asylum, you did scrape up an impressive fanbase of level-headed, non-zealous followers. Not a one was over the top. Well, at least not all of them. These people didn’t embrace you because you were “insightful” or “knowledgeable”, they doted on you because your gibberish matched their bias and they were largely unable to construct any sort of argument of their own.
“Some liked how I make gutsy calls in the face of vast opposition, stand by those calls”
Stand by your calls? Please, stop it already, in this very thread we have evidence of mindless rationalization, you don’t go down with the ship, you either pretend it never sailed or you mess with the navigation gear to change the position. Or you blame the helmsman and escape in a lifeboat.
“There are those supporting me in this thread right now that don't necessarily agree with every conclusion I made.”
I can’t remember seeing any of your fans disagreeing with much of anything you’ve said, probably because they;
A: Don’t fully read your posts, they just applaud it because it probably fits their bias.
B: They’re too simple-minded to form arguments of their own.
Or simply both. People who agree with your every word obviously have some gears and cogs running in the wrong direction.
(Sneaky point C: They’re actually you, at last a few of them).
“That's what forums are all about. A marketplace for points of view that people can buy or bypass at their own choosing.”
And that’s why you bypass my arguments and choose to dive into massive, inconsequential philosophical rants to cover your lack of understanding of most things in the industry and then peddle your B-rate goods on the most gullible shoppers that wouldn’t recognize common sense if it ran over their dog with a go-cart.
“Where your standing is built by the power of your words.”
That means that you’re in the middle of nowhere then. A rhetorical wasteland.
“I would think nothing less for a showcase of equals debating their views.”
Yet you impose your superiority at every turn.
“This is the mentality I take for EVERY forum I go to.”
Open mouth and shut eyes?
“Yes. I DO think I have a unique point of view no one has considered.”
Because it holds absolutely no merit, David Icke also presents a very unique point of view; he also has “proof” and “insight”.
“To enrich the discussion so that all members of the forum can exchange knowledge & learn new things.”
How does one enrich discussion by dodging, deflecting and rationalizing all day long? Learn what? Cheap, transparent rhetorical tricks in order to convey nothing in many, many words?
“To debate & discuss as we find truth.”
As if you need to debate, you already have the truth! What you want is to cram insane speculation down everyone’s throat without any meaningful resistance. You want the attention, the applause, the stardom, you love it! That’s what all these theatrics are about in the end, a grand show.
“When I post to a forum, I underpin my arguments with factual data, logic, & insightful intuition to show that it isn't just wishful thinking.”
No, you use unrelated youtube videos, long-winded off-topic philosophical monologue with no aim other than to distract from the fact that you have no proper argument, you cherrypick data and take things out of context and use downright false information. Your logic is your most underdeveloped skill by far; you take leaps of logic so huge that pole-vaulters gaze in open mouthed amazement. Your insightful intuition is hopes, dreams, nostalgic rants with zero substance and point and speculation on possible and irrelevant hindsight factors.
You’re a conman, John, a bad one at that.
“There's a solid foundation at the root of my lofty conclusions. I welcome the argument & will work from that foundation in the rebuttal.”
No, you have no foundation, that’s why you deploy these cheap and cowardly tactics, you avoid main arguments and work around them, you present obvious strawmen and you see everything in black and white. That is also why this rebuttal was so simple for me to do. Managed it in a couple of days, in response to your behemoth post as opposed to you taking weeks to answer one post that isn’t even very extensive, all the while ignoring my other posts (some of which shot down some of your primary arguments before you even started making them more elaborate).
“And Yes. I DO like to go that extra mile into the Unbelievable & DARE you to see it as Believable.
To challenge the established conventions.
To break your brain from those conventional chains & set it free to go on a Mind Adventure. Exploring the world of what can be.”
This right here is plain crazy, you’re thinking you’re some sort of omniscient guru. I have never seen such an ego-trip play out in text form before.
“Like Satoru Iwata said at GDC 2011 I like to make the Impossible Possible. This is where Intuition enters the room.
There's more to the story than what's on paper. There's more to the story than the Tale of the Tape. And intuition will take you there.”
Why don’t you compare yourself to more people who actually achieved something and not wasted their days on internet board spouting nonsense? Are you seriously this badly in love with yourself?
Ah, shit, you just did, comparing yourself to true pioneers and intellectuals is insulting for two main reasons;
1: You’re debating fucking video games!
2: They were actual intellectuals and you’re just an egocentric dude on the internet who wants to decide what everyone should like.
“Anything sounds ridiculous until it is understood. It is human nature to ridicule, to belittle, to marginalize what they don't understand.
As knowledge grows the ridicule, the belittling, the marginalization ends.
Understanding has been reached as minds expand to new possibilities.”
Take your zen nonsense elsewhere, this is the sphere I was talking about right here.
“How much do you think they ridiculed Leonardo Da Vinci & the Wright Brothers when they were trying to create a flying machine?”
I’m speechless. Just speechless. Delusions of grandeur are ill suited to describe this, we need some new terminology, and NO, I will not wait for your approval of said terminology.
“How ridiculous must it have been in the year 1895 to suggest that men will one day walk on the moon?
How ridiculous must it have sounded in the year 1895 to suggest that there would one day be a Black President of the United States?”
Such things are clearly nowhere near as amazing as failed video game predictions though, surely.
“How badly was Robert H. Goddard ridiculed through his work with rockets? The New York Times had a major editorial on the subject!
There's one thing I know about life & that is this: First they ignore you, then they ridicule you, then they fight you, then you win.”
Because you are in any way comparable to these people? I’m disgusted.
And then a bunch more, this would be what I described as “off-topic bouts of self-doting”. You’re following my rhetoric bingo board to the dot, John, thank you for proving my insight.
“6th gen tactics. *Sigh* He has missed the point entirely.”
Aw, shucks, my bad.
“EVERYBODY'S Console, Mummelmann. Everybody's Console. That's what Wii was intended to be.”
But it wasn’t.
“The 3rd parties sabotaged this mission so Nintendo decided to create a better Wii that could circumvent that sabotage.”
They stayed away due to a lack of a proper developer environment, architecture discrepancy, lacking online etc. Besides, you also claim that Nintendo chose to kill the Wii by themselves in a show of total market control, make up your mind and stop contradicting yourself at every turn. You know all that by now, might as well stop there since you’ll ignore my every word anyway.
“That was the whole purpose behind the sudden drop in promotion of the Wii in 2011 when the system was still hot.”
There was no purpose; they were caught with their pants down, dipping their loaf in a bucket of decadence. And, as we already established and as is clear for anyone who bothers to look at the charts, the Wii was not still hot at this time. The numbers are available for everyone, John, people are clearly either not keen on looking or they are simply not reading your entire posts, or, even more likely; you don’t care either way as long as the falsehoods contain a lot of words.
“I explained this already.”
Yes, and it was false all the other times you droned on about it too.
“You have to let go of this "casual" stuff. You'll never understand the real picture if you keep using terms like that.
Garbage In Garbage Out. Leggo that GIGO, Mummelmann. The "casual/hardcore" dichotomy is garbage.
Put it in the trash where it belongs.”
No, I think I’ll keep them, seeing as how they fit my theories and, you know, explain everything that is happening now and is about to happen. You’re trying hard to decide the parameters of discussion here.
“They have NOT foregone the Wiimote, Mummelmann.
They have done the unprecedented allowing absolute backwards compatibility with Wii.”
The Wii-mote has not evolved and remained the main concept of the Wii U = they abandoned the concept as a “game changer”, it is now simply a peripheral, an optional feature. And how is absolute backwards compatibility unprecedented? The PS2 had that.
More nonsense.
“In fact the old Wii Menu is DEAD CENTER of the 15 screens of the Wii U Menu. How can you say they have foregone the Wiimote?”
Dead center, damn! That means that the Gamepad is not the main driving force? I’m confused here.
“When I play Pikmin 3 with that option to play with the Wiimote & Nunchuk, how can you say they have foregone the Wiimote?”
I can play my PC with a mouse from 1991 if I want to, that doesn’t make that mouse the primary catalyst of the PC, it makes it an option.
“What's so great about Wii U is how it gives you so many options for input interchangeably. Upad, Wiimote/Nunchuk, Classic Controllers.
Just like the 3DS with its interchangeable options between Touchscreen, Circle Pad, & Control Pad.
I play around with this interchangability all the time when I play Animal Crossing: New Leaf.
I do the same with Super Mario 3D World on Wii U.
I SEE why they called it Project Café. A sampling of different flavors & aromas like you're in a coffeehouse.”
I feel like I fainted and woke in an infomercial. Do you also do children’s parties?
“It's understandable that you can't see it. I couldn't see it at first either. I once thought the Upad would contradict the Wiimote too.”
Yeah, all those doubts you had, but amazingly; Nintendo did it again, didn’t they?
“Wii U recognizes the limitations of Wii & adds new things to make the system even more well-rounded & versatile.”
Making the system for everyone even more for everyone! Yeah, when you put it like that it makes complete sense. Although I’m pretty sure you claimed that the Wii-mote was perfect in the 7th gen. No, John Lucas, Nintendo turned around on their own revolution and foolishly chased the tablet market and you’re just rationalizing, yet again.
“Every Wii is not a Wii U but every Wii U is a Wii. Do you understand now why I said that Wii U is Wii Part 2?”
You mean like a sequel? Like PS2 to PS1? What an utterly mind-bending concept, I had no idea such things could be done! I’m glad you’re here to teach us simple folk the intricacies of such things, in addition to everything you’ve taught us on programming, coding and your other fields of expertise.
“They have ALWAYS relied on Mario & Zelda & their other franchises to sell their systems & they always will.”
Such a daring strategy, they truly are the epitome of creativity and guts. I would absolutely love for them to take some more chances and try some new things, they wouldn’t have to abandon the old, just add something new as well. No, the Wii series isn’t overly exciting to me.
“They get their power from star franchises built before they existed like those from the NES/SNES era or they get it from franchises built in the PC world.”
Tomb Raider, Gran Turismo, Need for Speed, Rayman, Grand Theft Auto, Halo, Splinter Cell, Assassin’s Creed, Forza Motorsport, Gears of War, Tekken, Crash Bandicoot, Resident Evil, Spyro, Oddworld, Tony Hawk’s Pro Skater, Driver, Silent Hill, Twisted Metal, God of War, Uncharted, Jak & Daxter, Ratchet & Clank, The Last of Us, InFamous, Killzone, Red Dead Redemption, Wipeout, Ridge Racer, among others, would like to have a word with you. You have no idea what you’re talking about here, John, as usual. In fact; the majority of bestsellers on MS and Sony platforms were Playstation and Xbox franchises from the beginning and you know it. Hitting new lows here.
I don’t care about your uninteresting wrestling analogies since I haven’t been 14 years old in 15 years. I bet you have a Van Damme poster in your room as well.
“I know the wrestling world very well. I know the game world very well.”
Number one; could be, I know nothing about “wrestling”.
Number two; clearly you don’t, going by the amount of nonsense in these last few paragraphs and earlier in the post. You know Nintendo history very well for sure, and that’s pretty much the extent of your divine insight.
“I just showed you the perfect parallel between these two worlds.”
Wow, a perfect analogy! You’re such a champion.
“And the punchline to this story: WWF finished the Monday Night Wars. Now mostly all wrestling is UNITED under them.
(Similarly the WWF pulled this feat off when at one time everyone thought them to be DOOMED)”
Sensational. This proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Nintendo revolution is at hand.
“That Blue Ocean book was definitely good for a lot of soundbites. It captured a unique understanding of markets that had just about everybody quoting the 'Blue Ocean' catchphrase.”
Just about every hardcore Wii fan, you mean, and the hardcore Malstrom fans.
“With the bleach white Wii console, the bright blue light you bathed in from the disc slot & the indicators on the bluetooth-powered Wiimotes, the colors of a Blue Ocean Wave were signified: watery blues interlaced with white foam washing away all that was before.”
See, these are yet more of those segments of text that I was talking about that add nothing to the discussion and appeals only to you or people fairly high up in the autism spectrum.
“Playing on the metaphorical fun of the 'Blue Ocean' phrase, what happens if Nintendo creates a whirlpool in that Blue Ocean?
What happens if Nintendo dries out the Blue Ocean leaving the other ships beached & run aground?
What happens if Nintendo makes the Blue Ocean boil cooking the other ships?”
You’re continuously implying that Nintendo are in direct control of the gaming industry, this is clearly not the case. They did great with the Wii, that does not mean that they can simply capture any market or kill the competition at their whim.
Once again, you seem to ignore the total irrelevance of the N64 and Gamecube; the Wii was the exception to the rule and the Wii U is on track to follow the rule, in no small part due to Nintenhesitation (another one, whooooo!).
“These are the things that instantly came to my mind as that epiphany hit me at E3 2013 with the XBox One display.”
You know what came to my mind? “These restrictions are ridiculous; Microsoft will be forced to back out of most of this shit.” “Ooh, snap, Nintendo just won the 8th generation!” seems like a fairly strange reaction to this. Besides, according to you, people who buy PS and Xbox products will take it up the ass anyway, who knew that these morons would actually protest right?
This also went straight in the face of developer wishes, despite your insistence that MS and Sony bend over and give them everything they want. MS were forced to choose between fans and developers getting displeased, they choose the fans in an evil turn of events and figured, correctly I might add, that their developer relations were warranted on merits besides “bending over backwards and give them all they want” so they could afford to piss them off slightly.
“I don't know everything but I DO know that Nintendo never sells a console at a loss.
I know that Nintendo usually goes last of the competitors.
I kept asking myself "Why are they going first knowing that the competition would copy them or play the power hype game?"
I kept asking myself "Why would Nintendo sell a console at a loss when they have never launched a console this way before?"”
First off; the 3DS says hello. Second; yeah why did they go against convention? It could never in a million years be because they were faced with historically unprecedented circumstances with the Wii’s rapid and massive decline and were forced to hurry to salvage their position as a relevant competitor in home consoles? No, it was probably a master plan, just like the recent bundling stealing the revenue to offset losses on hardware is all long-term planning. In fact; the very sales of the Wii U appear to be the result of some amazing planning.
“It just didn't fit Nintendo's usual way of doing things.”
Because the last half of the 7th was highly unfavorable to Nintendo and got them into an unexpected storm, conditions never dealt with before. Guess they forgot to watch the weather forecast (i.e; read the damn market and its movements).
“They had a console that was STILL hot.”
If I read this bullshit one more time, I’ll murder a kitten.
“It's like the speed of this launch was trying to force a situation into being. They were trying to create a market reality by force.”
Sounds an awful lot like a user called Mummelmann theorizing on “forced market convergence”, if I’m honest.
“What happens when that cantankerous 1st party ruins this little party?
What happens when Nintendo says "time's up!" on the 7th generation?
What happens is Nintendo forces a dilemma.”
You’re living in topsy-turvy land, John, Nintendo were not in control, this was not some long running scheme, and they are the ones who had their hand forced as they lost all hold on the 7th gen. Flipping reality on its head does nothing to promote your credibility.
“Once Nintendo was sipping from Project Café, the others had to scramble out a response. That's why you saw them at 2013 not 2012.”
Surely, some day you will read this post of yours and think; “what in the seven hells was I doing back then”?
“Nobody was paying attention but it was Nintendo who set up the conditions leading the XBox One & PlayStation 4 into being what they are.”
I’m willing to bet you anything that the PS4 and One were in the planning stages and even in R&D long before the Wii U. The PS3’s work began only a couple of years after the PS2 launched and they kept at it despite the PS2 being a massive success. The Wii U’s lack of games, messy launch and incredibly poorly conceived Gamepad concept, the ridiculous lack of storage, embracing a dying architecture solution and having almost no extra features functional out of the box all point towards this, but you refuse to see it because it would imply that Nintendo are simply a company along with everyone else, prone to the up’s and down’s of the market and business in general. You know; mere mortals. You spend half your time dooming others and the other half constructing a vision of a Nintendo that are above and beyond all rules and troubles, it’s a childish fairytale, John, it’s how teenagers rationalize their football team being occasionally crushed in the series.
“Sony once the king of marrying their media formats to their game machines is suddenly playing the safe route. No new formats.”
Uhm, yes, because there is no need for one and they are making billions on being one of the main proponents and owners of the Blu-ray technology. How is that a bad thing? You’re being utterly ridiculous. I do agree that they’re playing it safe, but not on those grounds.
“Microsoft who did everything they could to keep the XBox 360 from looking like the XBox is now forced to come up with new ideas.”
Oh damn, know of anyone else who were forced to come up with new ideas? I do! You guessed it; it’s that little playing card company from Kyoto that created all the characters on your bed sheets!
“But they're not really gamemakers so all they could deliver was restrictive DRM madness, lots of TV-viewing options, and of course Peggle 2!”
They removed the restrictive DRM, or did you turn off your internet once the new had hit and start writing sample “Microsoft is doomed” pieces? TV-viewing options? Like the PS3 and 360 had that were massively popular? Such foolishness. Besides, the Wii U is chasing down this very path, but you probably forgot that. And how about that Peggle 2, can they not see that John Lucas doesn’t approve of this game? I can’t believe how inconsiderate they’re being.
“Because of Nintendo putting Sony & Microsoft in that dilemma, neither the PlayStation 4 or the XBox One have backward compatibility.”
You mean like the 360 and PS3 didn’t as well? Crisis. The 360 was compatible with about 100 titles and the PS3’s 60GB SKU with BC was discontinued after a short while. Besides, Nintendo didn’t put anyone in a dilemma, they were under the most severe stress, but I’ve already said that too many times now.
“Why not? Because it would have drove up costs to manufacture them that's why.”
Yeah, almost as much as the highly unintuitive Gamepad did. How about that.
“But wait a minute isn't the PS4 Blu-ray just like the PS3? Why CAN'T PS3's Blu-ray game discs work in the PS4?
It's not even a format change this time. Blu-ray = Blu-ray.”
Once again, you reveal your incredible lack of knowledge on games development and coding. The PS4 has X86 architecture while the PS3’s Cell is largely based on custom PowerPC die. This is also what makes developing multiplatforms or ports for the Wii U such a hassle.
Oh, I forgot, you don’t “believe” in hardware differences and the problems linked to them.
“Even so, if XBox One is Blu-ray why can't it play the dual-layered DVD game discs of the 360?
Regular Blu-ray players play Blu-rays, DVDs, & CDs. A disc is a disc, right?”
Again, John, the chipset architecture is completely different; the format doesn’t run the rendering; it stores the information in a compressed and coded state, ready to be interpreted and translated by the hardware components and subsequently appear as visual or audiovisual signals for us to enjoy. I have to ask you straight up; are you completely daft? You don’t seem to know anything on this subject, filling this section with lots of text cannot hide that fact, and this is the same for everything else, this is just a lot easier to spot for the untrained eye.
“Not sure if they succeeded on that...”
You’re basically lashing out at the fact that Sony and MS refused the added cost of emulating 7th gen games that would require an entire other chipset inside the machine. That would have caused massive losses and even higher retail pricing; you know, those two stupid things you don’t like.
You seriously need to stop debating if it takes you three weeks to produce “arguments” of this caliber.
“And that leads me to a couple of other points. Sony & Microsoft did all of this and STILL couldn't get their consoles to sell above a loss at launch!”
The PS4 is pretty much around the zero spot, when distribution gains routine and production gets more streamlined, it will be profitable, probably within six months or less, making all their game sales and royalties pure profits.
You know who is currently the worst off in this regard? Nintendo, John, Nintendo! The Wii U is still losing money after over a year on the market and the software to offset the losses that Reggie was talking about last year is being bundled for free making every sale an all-round loss operation, John! Do you understand that? Don’t use arguments that work better against you than for you, you really haven’t learned a thing in 6-7 years.
“Here's an article explaining why: Like the PS4, Xbox One Being Built At a Loss
Give them credit that they may be closer to breaking even than they were with the 360 & PS3 but it just shows what a bind Nintendo put these guys in to get a console ready for the 8th generation.”
Now I know you’re being stupid on purpose. The Wii U covered the losses with software, it had bigger losses and needed more software to cover it, but that was all part of the master plan. Sony and MS do the same and have much better hardware to show for it; suddenly this is sheer lunacy and suicide and bad business. Besides; look above, the Wii U gives away the games that were offsetting the loss and the console itself is still losing money after over a year. This is one consequence among others, of choosing a non-standard format and architecture; they take longer to go down in cost since they’re not universally implemented and thus have very low product volume. Didn’t you say you were “knowledgeable” on business? From where I’m sitting, you’re looking increasingly void of knowledge.
“That's why Sony & Microsoft opted to build the PS4 & One with off-the-shelf parts.
They had to get these machines built in a hurry & the quickest way was to just mirror a PC. That's why the architectures are so PC-like.”
No, they are providing an even more friendly developer environment by moving closer to the overall industry standards and leaving chipsets with no future and emphasis behind them. You know, going for the “UNITY” approach… This also drives R&D and manufacturing cost down, it’s a smart move, John.
The ones who needed their machine built in a hurry opted for parts that are being phased out by x86 (and have been since early 2000’s) and ARM designs, causing both higher R&D and manufacturing costs and yet another hardware obstacle in coding to overcome.
“And that's my next point. What's the point of a console when it's just like a PC?
Sony & Microsoft missed that detail in their Nintendo dilemma.”
What’s the point of a tablet when it’s just like a smartphone? I dunno but they did sell 130 million of them last year. The ones missing details and crucial market understanding here are Nintendo and you.
“I have personally heard account of this event in action. I have a relative who was a lifelong console gamer. “
Yay, more amazing worthless anecdotes that are easily made up.
“At the same time he was also becoming a PC gamer. He loves to build PCs & pore over the details of the parts & stuff.
Earlier this year, I talked to him & asked him what console he was interested in for this 8th generation just getting underway.
To my surprise he said that he wasn't really interested at all with any of them. I was SHOCKED! I knew he was not in favor of Wii U but I thought he would at least go for the PlayStation 4. That he would at least have a comment to make about the XBox One. Nope. Nothing.”
Oh my god! You just used a fictional character just like me as an example to irrefutably prove your theory! Congratulations, John, you win.
“He's like his PC can do more than any console could anyway so why waste his money on a console.”
And that’s how I feel. You wanna know who didn’t feel like that? The vast majority of the 160 million people who have bought PS3’s and 360’s and love them and are getting more of the same in the 8th gen. Or are you saying that the PS3 and 360 were fads? You want to know of another audience who actually took their money elsewhere for real? The vast majority of the Wii userbase.
“You talk about Nintendo being in a slow-cook disaster. Ha!
It is Sony & Microsoft who were led into a slow-cook disaster by NINTENDO.
Nintendo was willing to take a short-term hit for a long-term gain.”
Yeah, all a part of the master plan. You spin so much that you’ve gone and made yourself dizzy and disoriented.
“That's what going first was all about. That's why the decision to risk selling at a loss IN ORDER to go first was all about.”
No, they were starting to get fucked and jumped into another situation only to have it even worse.
“They managed to create an HD console that DID NOT cost them production expenses out the wazoo.”
They managed to make, by far, the greatest loss out of all three and are still losing money on each unit. This argument is making you look silly.
“Nintendo. Wii U. Wii Unity. UNITY. The Revolution Beyond the Blue Ocean.”
Coming off of that inspirational speech, I’m left with one thought; you failed to even address my main point, being that due to the Wii U being HD, development costs are now very high and the 3rd parties have nothing to gain on going there that they can’t gain by scaling their budgets elsewhere. You actually managed fifteen minutes “worth” of reading and likely hours of writing without even touching in on my actual argument. And this is the case with the other arguments; you dress up everything in a fat-suit and send it off to sea, where it floats around accomplishing nothing other than blocking actual traffic.
You’re a really, really poor debater John Lucas, you’re a decent writer but a poor debater.
You have no arguments or knowledge, only walls of text and heartwarming Nintendo history in every segment.
“I'm starting to wonder if you even read the opening post of this thread.
I specifically stated that I once thought Nintendo screwed up with the 3DS & Wii U.”
“No, honestly, I had my doubts but they brought me right back into the light” This again. And they called us parrots.
“The 3DS launched at too high a price with not enough compelling games at launch. That was a CRUCIAL mistake on Nintendo's part.
It was one people believed to be insurmountable in the face of the smartphones & tablets. What did Nintendo do?
They got that price right, they made early adopters 'Ambassadors', & they started pumping out those games back to back.
Now 2 going on 3 years later, they are just about even with the sales of the DS in about the same span of time.”
“The Wii U launches at too high a price with not enough compelling games at launch. This is a CRUCIAL mistake on Nintendo's part.
It is one people believe to be insurmountable in the face of the PlayStation 4 & XBox One. What does Nintendo do?
They get that price right, they have early adopters act as ambassadors through Miiverse, & they're starting to pump out games back to back.”
Wow! The 3DS and Wii U situation are exactly the same! There is no such thing as demographics, hardware doesn’t hinder or help either way and chipsets with lower wattage means that development costs plummet! It’s perfect! Or completely and utterly ridiculous and founded on falsehoods, confusion and a total lack of understanding on several fields.
See my post about why the Wii U is not the 3DS, John, I don’t even know why you bothered with this bit here, speculation, assumption, rationalization, business as usual.
“You see, I know better than to underestimate Nintendo because I MYSELF made that mistake in years past.”
Hallelujah, preach on brotha! In the tough walks of life yada yada, when the doubt looms etc, the epiphany and revelation and so forth. We get it; you fabricate never expressed doubt in hindsight to lend the false appearance that you possess the ability to see more than two colors.
“Oh, you want me to SHOW you how I know that Nintendo strategizes from their handhelds first then goes into their home consoles?”
Wow, they release home consoles and handhelds in regular intervals? Never have I seen such incredible strategy, I doubt we will find its equal in any other market or area of business.
“That explains the first fiscal annual loss in 30 years in 2012.”
Rising cost teamed with losing their momentum and subsequently; their shit, also does.
“The mistake YOU make is underestimating Nintendo. It's a mistake MANY people make. It's a mistake many people REGRET.
Never Underestimate Nintendo. Type those 3 words into a search engine & see what you find in the results.
Warren Spector told you. Spector: Underestimate Nintendo at your peril”
I shudder at the thought of the impact that underestimating a company in Japan will have on my life. I will not sleep soundly tonight, rest assured. The charts will show us who is making the mistake, John, and I have patience.
Warren Spector; one of my favorite PC developers of all time. He also made Epic Mickey along with Disney on Nintendo, what else would he say? “Nintendo are making some foolish decisions here and are likely going to face a mountain of trouble in the near future.” Peter Molyneux is another all-time great in the PC world who also says some weird things, why would I listen to it, especially when it is wrong? Spector is a fantastic developer, that doesn’t mean I have to cling to his every word.
Using the words of a legend as an alibi does nothing to help the Wii U gain sales and traction.
“Nintendo makes mistakes & they learn from them. That's how they get stronger with each passing generation.”
Like the amazing climb from NES to SNES, from SNES to N64 and N64 to Gamecube? Or were we ignoring anything pre-2005 again now? I keep getting lost in your maze of foolhardy text.
“If the Wii U fails to fulfill my 12 million call for 2013, then Nintendo will correct that mistake by making the 35 million for 2014.”
29.5 million or more sold for the CY 2014. This has officially become a joke thread, John, you need to lie down and think things through a little here. Sony, Nintendo and Microsoft combined won’t even produce that many units in 2014.
“They miss a few plays but they'll win the game, remember what I tell you.”
Or I could invest in your brand of selective memory and forget this whole post ever happened, how’s that?
“Nintendo didn't come here to fail, boys. Make no mistake that the plan they have for Wii U will come to fruition.
Wii U will lead the 8th generation & bring Unity to the videogame world. No mistaking that.”
And you will simply keep moving the milestones and goal posts, ever gazing at the horizon, pointing and shouting, jumping with joy and never, ever understand anything that’s going on in the industry today.
“Nintendo STOPPED Wii from fulfilling its sales potential & that is only reason it did not reach those goals.”
20/20 hindsight? No, not even that, pure speculation. Besides, you claimed in this very post that “3rd party sabotage” was what caused the Wii to fail to reach its potential, is this one of your major contradictions, John? Oh, you’re such a “bad” boy, such a “smooth criminal”, but this is not how one goes about when attempting to “heal the world”, lest people on the forums tell you to “beat it”. Yeah, those are for you, free of charge, since you love play on words and analogies and stuff. XOXOXO
“The Wii Mini is STILL bringing in some numbers for the Wii & the Wii Mini is a total & absolute JOKE!!”
Trollololol, hardware revisions! It’s not like the Nintendo handhelds often get 3-4 or even 5 of these in one cycle and it can certainly not be true that the Wii U launched with two SKU’s, one of which was very recently cut. Double-edged swords, John.
“I have showed you the history. I have posted the links.”
You have ranted off-topic, sidestepped the real arguments and provided links to confirm your bias, and your “history” is a hindsight matinée steeped in speculation over things that didn’t happen, drawing parallels between situations that are not comparable to those at hand and downright using falsehood and cherry picked stats and “facts” to fit your embarrassing current predictions.
“240 million in sales MINIMUM was reachable by Wii.”
Speculation, this is the spine of all your arguments; the “could have’s” and “would have’s” hold no value in a real debate, John; you cannot pretend to be in a position to school me on anything when you have failed to grasp so many basics.
“With Wii breaking every record the PS2 set how could you not see Wii going even further in sales? It was no stretch whatsoever.”
Because it had no support and the userbase was stolen almost overnight? If you’re referring to tracking above the PS2 in sales for a few years, I hate to remind you of the graphs and charts showing the Wii U tracking below virtually everything released in two decades. You can’t honestly cling to the notion of consoles shattering this barrier when the Wii provably failed to do so.
The condition are even worse now; no momentum, lost audience, no basic appeal and even less support, even from Nintendo themselves due to extended development cycles.
“All Nintendo had to do was keep backing the Wii up & those sales were a given.
Nintendo CHOSE to stop Wii & have a greater Wii better fulfill the old Wii's mission. This post & this entire UNITY thread explains that.”
Speculation that you can’t prove, it’s all hot air, like the rest of this section. Your arguments are based on assumptions alone right here, your thread is simply comfort material for the most hardcore Nintendo fans who don’t want to live in a world where the Wii U is currently crashing hard. This thread only explains that you have way too much spare time.
“You don't yet have the vision to see this future reality.”
And, ladies and gentlemen, here it is again, the rhetorical sphere that I am somehow hindered by and he is outside for no apparent reason other than claiming to be.
“It is much easier for you to pile on Nintendo with the rest of the doubters.”
Bunching me with people who don’t spend any time and effort to construct proper arguments, trying to belittle me by juxtaposing me with everyone who has some form of opposition against Nintendo and/or their current strategy. Cheap, cheap shots right here. I started this train of thought in early 2011 and have been increasingly confident seeing as how the charts and stats confirm my views, in 2011 you were still reeling from having your vgchartz world implode and all your predictions turned to dust.
Get off your high horse and smell the manure you hypocrite. The worst piling in here by far are the glib choir boys that applaud your every ridiculous word.
“We have been here before with the 3DS.
In 2011 when 3DS struggled, there was post on October 11th”
Again, I already covered this in anticipation of it being among your main “arguments”. The Wii U and 3DS situation are widely different.
“On October 22, 2011, moderator Mr Khan posted an article from MarketWatch titled Analyst: Nintendo will be bankrupt in 5 years.
Jason Spader, the analyst of said piece, used all the popular buzz words like 'casual' & 'serious gamer' spouting off garbage like this:”
Oh no, a moron used some of the same words I do, thus rendering my whole argument invalid. A da-capo appearance by the sphere again, ladies and gentlemen! Besides, I’ve never stated that Nintendo will go bankrupt in five years or even anything similar, I have maintained that they need to change up the recipe and stop relying on tradition to make it big in emerging markets and in these times of fast moving tech and fleeting audiences.
But, yeah, reduce it to that, I must belong in the garbage along with Jason Spader and his foul mouth.
“And when enough of those blinds leading the blind make enough noise, it becomes fashionable to join the noisy crowd.
Safety in numbers.”
One in the crowd, is that why you take 3 weeks and 35.000 words to respond to me? And fuck safety in numbers, I don’t agree with most people on this site or even in this thread and most people didn’t agree with me in my thoughts on the Gamepad when it was first showed, Gamerace was among the only ones. Again, you’re trying to reduce me to just another “hater” or, even worse, a fabled “non-believer”, this is incredibly low and cheap, John, and exactly what I said you would resort to.
“To make up for their lack of SIGHT, they give you SOUND. To make up for their lack of INSIGHT, they SOUND OUT.
But I am immune to the noise. I can see past that wall of sound. Let them pile on & make the wall higher & higher.
I will bust through that wall.
Are you brave enough to bust through that wall with me, Mummelmann?
Or are you gonna play it safe & become another brick in the wall?”
I dunno, man, it’s kind of hard for me being immobilized within your rhetorical sphere and all. These are, yet again, the words of a person with issues.
“Judging by what you said on February 15, 2013 in response to another Pachter doomsday post, looks like I'm gonna hafta get out the spackle.
Mummelmann: "Their handheld business can’t save them in the face of cannibalization from smartphones and tablets" is probably the only sentence this man has ever uttered that I fully agree with.
Handhelds are going away for good, at least in their current form.”
And this has been disproven how? By the 3DS managing a little over half of the DS’ peak year until now without any competition to speak of? The jury’s still on this one, you’re once again drawing foregone conclusions, just like when you assume that Sony and MS won’t provide any resistance in the 8th gen.
“Wii U at 11.5 million for the end of 2013...hmm. That's only 500,000 away from my 12 million call for the end of 2013, Mummelmann.
Even if you never understood Wii U's purpose you STILL were brave enough to put down such a number & brave enough to keep that number in your signature even throughout all the doubt, despair, & doomaglooma. That shows me something.”
Yeah, this is how you actually go down with the ship, John. I kept it so I could see it every day and learn something from it, I have overshot my Nintendo home consoles predictions for four years now, and it’s about time I learned, that’s why the sig stays.
What about you? Why did you remove the link to this UNITY thread from your sig once the numbers turned out not to want to cooperate with you?
I assumed that it would require the competition to release before the Wii U’s lack of appeal became a huge problem, and I was wrong. It managed to sell incredibly poorly even without a PS4 and One breathing down its neck, the 360 and PS3 were all it took to kick its ass, to the tune of about twice the calendar year sales or more.
It also shows me something; I underestimated just how little appeal it has, won’t happen again, I assure you.
“Just like I was, just like Gamerace is, you are stuck. The epiphany hasn't hit you yet. The realization hasn't hit you yet.”
Oh god, even more feigned and past doubt stories. Gamerace is staying put, as am I and the only epiphany I’ve had and will have is that the PC is by far the best gaming platform in the world for me.
“Like it was with me, like it WILL be for Gamerace, it will be for you too.”
And I will run around naked in the rain and speak in tongues with you and your friends, I’m sure. You can’t constrict me with your rhetorical sphere.
“A bolt of lightning through my mind. It was like something took over my brain & then I saw & heard the word UNITY as XBox One was shown.”
Do you also hear voices in your head?
“A Unified Gaming Audience.”
“Everyone conforming to my tastes and wishes”, that is some strong jucie you’re sipping.
“Metallicube recently came to his own realization that he details in the following thread:”
Wow, another amazing born again Wii U disciple!
“Metallicube described himself as "once one of Wii U's biggest critics" & now he tells of his legitimate enjoyment of the Wii U.”
No, he only recently took that position, he was very confident before it released and everyone who’s been around as long as I have, know this member and who he is; a massive Nintendo fan with eyes for nothing else. There was never any huge doubt; he was on board all along and only joined the theatre to avoid so much flack, especially since he was so loud and smug during the Wii days.
“See Mummelmann, I was once one of Wii U's biggest critics too. I told the story in the opening post. I showed you my journey.”
Yet you never spoke of it online despite your love for attention (probably the one thing you like more than Nintendo) and only mention after the fact. It’s fiction, John, you were always deluded and always will be and these are worthless and constructed anecdotes.
“I made the turnaround, Metallicube made the turn around, Gamerace will make the turnaround, & you will make the turnaround as well.
And then what you see as my delusional view won't look so delusional anymore.
It will become self-evident as Arthur Schopenhauer said.”
You’ll finally let me out of the sphere, thank you. That is mighty big of you. I will stick to my PC and enjoy the hell out it, I’ll probably buy one or two consoles down the line when they’re dirt cheap and the games the same. And you will love and enjoy your Wii U and that’s great news for both of us, why can’t that be enough? Why do Nintendo, and you, need to rule the world?
No amount of fiction and wishful thinking will get either of you there and you will end up as the most disappointed and disillusioned gamer in the world at this rate.
Your main problem is that go after this the wrong way; you don’t go out there to attempt to falsify what you’re saying to be certain, you go looking for false evidence and pick and choose what fits and then ignore any and all things that point to the contrary. This is not a good way to go about a meaningful analysis, or anything else for that matter.
If the whole argument is a construct; there will be trouble.
You have, predictably, failed to address my main arguments in this monster sized rebuttal of yours. It’s a wall of inconsistent rants, useless musings and philosophy, speculation, self-love and mostly; very, very words offering very, very little of value.
Well, I guess that’s it. That’s all I got for now. Your white knight novel is of no interest to me, it’s just a massive amount of text to offer some very simple deflection.
Essay Pro