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Forums - General - So an Abortion limiting bill passed in my state, Texas

Mr Khan said:
ListerOfSmeg said:
When a woman can create a baby alone, then it will be her and her choice alone. After you conceive it is no longer her choice alone because she damn sure didn't do it alone. I hate the BS excuse its her body. Like that didn't apply when she was spreading her legs. Just a complete joke of an excuse.

Rape.


I love you buddy, but this argument always irks me. Am I naive enough to say rape doesn't resolve in pregnancy? No. But let's be honest here. How many of those pregnancies are rape?



I am the black sheep     "of course I'm crazy, but that doesn't mean I'm wrong."-Robert Anton Wilson

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Mr Khan said:
Calmador said:

I consider abortion murder.

I can't believe people don't see it... it puts me in awe that some how... tearing a child into pieces is so different from tearing a child into pieces when the child is the whom.

We live in a monstrous time.

So, I'm glad about this but this isn't enough.

The rationale for defining human life as "sacred and inviolable" should be Decartesian: Sentient thought or the capacity to do so is what separates us from the animals, humans incapable of doing so (note, the bar for sentience is decently low, so the mentally handicapped and toddlers still qualify) do not qualify for the same degree of consideration (note that this does not mean a total lack of consideration. All life deserves some respect, but all non-sentient life should ultimately be disposable if doing so is for the best)

Would you be okay with your mother having aborted you? Do you love her enough to give her that kind of ultimate freedom? Would you be okay with not existing if that's what someone decided is for the best? If everything you've ever been is part of the same life, why is at any point your life less valuable?

 

And does thinking the bolded part really separate us from animals?

(BTW I've never heard these arguments before, they just came to me)



hatmoza said:
Mr Khan said:
ListerOfSmeg said:
When a woman can create a baby alone, then it will be her and her choice alone. After you conceive it is no longer her choice alone because she damn sure didn't do it alone. I hate the BS excuse its her body. Like that didn't apply when she was spreading her legs. Just a complete joke of an excuse.

Rape.


I love you buddy, but this argument always irks me. Am I naive enough to say rape doesn't resolve in pregnancy? No. But let's be honest here. How many of those pregnancies are rape?

A low percentage of abortions, admittedly. Most are due to economic purposes.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

LemonSlice said:
Mr Khan said:
Calmador said:

I consider abortion murder.

I can't believe people don't see it... it puts me in awe that some how... tearing a child into pieces is so different from tearing a child into pieces when the child is the whom.

We live in a monstrous time.

So, I'm glad about this but this isn't enough.

The rationale for defining human life as "sacred and inviolable" should be Decartesian: Sentient thought or the capacity to do so is what separates us from the animals, humans incapable of doing so (note, the bar for sentience is decently low, so the mentally handicapped and toddlers still qualify) do not qualify for the same degree of consideration (note that this does not mean a total lack of consideration. All life deserves some respect, but all non-sentient life should ultimately be disposable if doing so is for the best)

Would you be okay with your mother having aborted you? Do you love her enough to give her that kind of ultimate freedom? Would you be okay with not existing if that's what someone decided is for the best? If everything you've ever been is part of the same life, why is at any point your life less valuable?

 

And does thinking the bolded part really separate us from animals?

If my mother had aborted me, I would have never existed, effectively. It really runs into the "would the world be better off if I had never been born?" question, which is hard to answer.

Some parts are intrinsically less valuable due to a lack of ability to perceive the "self." If we cannot perceive the "self" (for instance, passing the mirror test. Funnily, pigs can pass that test whereas infants cannot), then we are not what makes us human. For healthy fetii, of course, they have the capacity to reach that point, but we cannot certainly say that they are on the level with a thinking human. Similarly with people who are in persistent vegatative states (that is, unable to think now and in the future)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
LemonSlice said:
Mr Khan said:
Calmador said:

I consider abortion murder.

I can't believe people don't see it... it puts me in awe that some how... tearing a child into pieces is so different from tearing a child into pieces when the child is the whom.

We live in a monstrous time.

So, I'm glad about this but this isn't enough.

The rationale for defining human life as "sacred and inviolable" should be Decartesian: Sentient thought or the capacity to do so is what separates us from the animals, humans incapable of doing so (note, the bar for sentience is decently low, so the mentally handicapped and toddlers still qualify) do not qualify for the same degree of consideration (note that this does not mean a total lack of consideration. All life deserves some respect, but all non-sentient life should ultimately be disposable if doing so is for the best)

Would you be okay with your mother having aborted you? Do you love her enough to give her that kind of ultimate freedom? Would you be okay with not existing if that's what someone decided is for the best? If everything you've ever been is part of the same life, why is at any point your life less valuable?

 

And does thinking the bolded part really separate us from animals?

If my mother had aborted me, I would have never existed, effectively. It really runs into the "would the world be better off if I had never been born?" question, which is hard to answer.

Some parts are intrinsically less valuable due to a lack of ability to perceive the "self." If we cannot perceive the "self" (for instance, passing the mirror test. Funnily, pigs can pass that test whereas infants cannot), then we are not what makes us human. For healthy fetii, of course, they have the capacity to reach that point, but we cannot certainly say that they are on the level with a thinking human. Similarly with people who are in persistent vegatative states (that is, unable to think now and in the future)

Isn't you never having existed a more horrible thought than your life ending at this moment? It's not about you never making your mark on the world, it's about you never having experienced a moment of you own life. You can't honestly just care about what the world would be like. Humans aren't like that.

At that point in time no one knows what the world would be like with and without you. No one knows even now.



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LemonSlice said:
Mr Khan said:

If my mother had aborted me, I would have never existed, effectively. It really runs into the "would the world be better off if I had never been born?" question, which is hard to answer.

Some parts are intrinsically less valuable due to a lack of ability to perceive the "self." If we cannot perceive the "self" (for instance, passing the mirror test. Funnily, pigs can pass that test whereas infants cannot), then we are not what makes us human. For healthy fetii, of course, they have the capacity to reach that point, but we cannot certainly say that they are on the level with a thinking human. Similarly with people who are in persistent vegatative states (that is, unable to think now and in the future)

Isn't you never having existed a more horrible thought than your life ending at this moment? It's not about you never making your mark on the world, it's about you never having experienced a moment of you own life. You can't honestly just care about what the world would be like. Humans aren't like that.

At that point in time no one knows what the world would be like with and without you. No one knows even now.

Not really. By never having the opportunity to exist, you don't have the ability to comprehend the horror of nonbeing.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

McDonaldsGuy said:

Men who run out on their children deserved to be punished - I totally agree with that.

But yes, the court generally favors women. 90% of custody cases have women victors, for example.

Here is my opinion: Women should be able to have an abortion, but if she doesn't and a custody battle happens, then the child should go to the parent that can best support him/her (instead of just going to the mother because she's a woman).

Well not all circumstances are the same. The parent who can best support the child might be subjective.

It appears there is an unfair bias for women in courts. So many irresponsible men might be partly to blame for that.



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Mr Khan said:
LemonSlice said:
Mr Khan said:
 

If my mother had aborted me, I would have never existed, effectively. It really runs into the "would the world be better off if I had never been born?" question, which is hard to answer.

Some parts are intrinsically less valuable due to a lack of ability to perceive the "self." If we cannot perceive the "self" (for instance, passing the mirror test. Funnily, pigs can pass that test whereas infants cannot), then we are not what makes us human. For healthy fetii, of course, they have the capacity to reach that point, but we cannot certainly say that they are on the level with a thinking human. Similarly with people who are in persistent vegatative states (that is, unable to think now and in the future)

Isn't you never having existed a more horrible thought than your life ending at this moment? It's not about you never making your mark on the world, it's about you never having experienced a moment of you own life. You can't honestly just care about what the world would be like. Humans aren't like that.

At that point in time no one knows what the world would be like with and without you. No one knows even now.

Not really. By never having the opportunity to exist, you don't have the ability to comprehend the horror of nonbeing.

But you do. Can you comprehend that now?

Valuing 'non-sentient* life has a lot more to do with valuing sentient life than you realize.

(will likely go to bed so don't expect more replies soon)



Mr Khan said:
Nirvana_Nut85 said:
Mr Khan said:
The 20 weeks thing is neither here nor there. What it affects is in these onerous requirements shutting down clinics that a lot of women use for a broad array of health services.

It so often seems like prenatal life is the only life the pro-lifers give a damn about, given their opposition to funding for any health services for the living.


The same can be said for pro choice (only opposite). It's as if they deem the unborn life as irrelevant without remembering that it is a living being in there, not an inaminate object. 

That makes no sense. The political leanings of the pro-choice tend to respect all sentient human life, at least in the desire to make sure that all people are guaranteed a minimal quality of life, as opposed to the pro-life, whose concern for the unborn only extends as far as not allowing women to terminate them. I mean, hell, conservatives oppose support for government-funded maternal health care in pretty much all its forms, so if the baby is miscarried through malnutrition, or a lack of health care on the mother's part, nobody sheds a tear.

The pro-life movement is poorly named. All they care about is stopping abortion, but they care nothing for the actual life of the fetus or quality of life of the baby that fetus will become.

Well, I don't know where you live but here in Canada we have the funding to support even the poorest of people to allow them to provide support for a child.

Also, since are on the opposing side of the argument you have not had to debate some of the lunatics who literally have absolutely no consideration for an unborn life whatsoever that they have such a blatent disregard to beleive that it is still a woman's choice to abort a child even after the child has exited the womb.

I'm not sure who you have spoken to, to come to the conclusion that pro choice people only care about the stopping the abortion and not the welfare of the child or the mother. Most people who I know who are por choice have the same idea that human life is precious and regardless of what situation you are born into whether it be the richest or poorest, every person deserve's a chance at life and considering most are christians (that i know), they usually donate money to help (at least in my church) the less fortunate and have outreach programs in the city.



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This is where I want to live as soon as I finish my course.