By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo - "Wii U GPU is several generations ahead of current gen" Shin'en

ViktorBKK on 31 May 2013
walsufnir said:
ViktorBKK said:
Let's take things from the start. Technically, CPU architecture refers to the instruction set of a CPU. Examples are, x86, ARM, MIPS etc.

Both the 360 and Wii U use PowerPC architecture. There is no "exotic" architecture involved, like PS3's mixed-core solution. Now obviously, some people want to believe that there is immense untapped power in this system. The cold hard truth is that Nintendo's system is based on 40-45nm silicon and runs at 75 Watts during full blown game-play. 80 dollar video cards from the same process node run at 100-130 watts. If you understand the principles of semi-conductor size and power consumption, then you know what I'm talking about. There is barely any hardware inside that console.


"Let's take things from the start. Technically, CPU architecture refers to the instruction set of a CPU. Examples are, x86, ARM, MIPS etc."

 

Right, this is called "ISA" (Instruction Set Architecture).

 

"Both the 360 and Wii U use PowerPC architecture."

 

Right, also PS3 (excluding the spes).

BUT: ISA means nothing. The way the instructions are implemented on the CPU, how the pipelining works, branch-prediction, cache-sizes... All this differs even with the same ISA.

Example: Pentium 4 and Pentium M.  Both were "x86" but still Pentium M was faster at lower clock rates. Why? Read above.

 

"There is barely any hardware inside that console."

 

This disqualifies yourself for all future technical discussions.


1) The PS3 also has RISC co-processors, so it is not just PowerPC.

2) I am sure you agree that porting code to a system that shares the same instruction set, requires less work than porting it to one that doesn't.

3) You may not like my wording, but you know its true. Less than 100 watts for an entire system that runs on 40/45nm hardware is literally nothing these days.



Around the Network
walsufnir on 31 May 2013
ViktorBKK said:
walsufnir said:
ViktorBKK said:
Let's take things from the start. Technically, CPU architecture refers to the instruction set of a CPU. Examples are, x86, ARM, MIPS etc.

Both the 360 and Wii U use PowerPC architecture. There is no "exotic" architecture involved, like PS3's mixed-core solution. Now obviously, some people want to believe that there is immense untapped power in this system. The cold hard truth is that Nintendo's system is based on 40-45nm silicon and runs at 75 Watts during full blown game-play. 80 dollar video cards from the same process node run at 100-130 watts. If you understand the principles of semi-conductor size and power consumption, then you know what I'm talking about. There is barely any hardware inside that console.


"Let's take things from the start. Technically, CPU architecture refers to the instruction set of a CPU. Examples are, x86, ARM, MIPS etc."

 

Right, this is called "ISA" (Instruction Set Architecture).

 

"Both the 360 and Wii U use PowerPC architecture."

 

Right, also PS3 (excluding the spes).

BUT: ISA means nothing. The way the instructions are implemented on the CPU, how the pipelining works, branch-prediction, cache-sizes... All this differs even with the same ISA.

Example: Pentium 4 and Pentium M.  Both were "x86" but still Pentium M was faster at lower clock rates. Why? Read above.

 

"There is barely any hardware inside that console."

 

This disqualifies yourself for all future technical discussions.


1) The PS3 also has RISC co-processors, so it is not just PowerPC.

2) I am sure you agree that porting code to a system that shares the same instruction set, requires less work than porting it to one that doesn't.

3) You may not like my wording, but you know its true. Less than 100 watts for an entire system that runs on 40/45nm hardware is literally nothing these days.


1) As I said if you had read my post.

2) No I don't because if you want performant code you also have to keep in mind how the cache is structured and how the whole system is designed. This will change your code in a massive way if you want it to be fitting to the system. Cache-aware coding is time-consuming but profilers will help you, of course. Of course, if you are lazy and don't use the system properly you get ports as we see them now.

Just look at the slides from Guerilla Games what they said about the memory layout of PS4 - this has nothing to do with the cpu but with understanding how the memory works on this system.

3) But only power consumption is not telling the whole truth. PS4 and Xbox One won't use 300 Watts either, so they are also "nothing"? Is a smartphone which is able to run emulators for systems like n64 hardware-wise nothing?

 

I think there is a lot of brainpower in the WiiU which we all don't see by now. It is definitely not capable like PS4/Xbox One but it should definitely ahead of ps360 to me.



Pemalite on 31 May 2013
ViktorBKK said:


1) The PS3 also has RISC co-processors, so it is not just PowerPC.


RISC stands for Reduced-Instruction-Set-Computing.
It's a type of CPU design, it's not an architecture, PowerPC and ARM processors are both RISC.

Intel and AMD's CPU's are CISC. (Complex-Instruction-Set-Computing).

Also, I suggest for those who want a decent high-graphical game to go back "Shadow of the Eternals" on kickstarter, uses the CryEngine 3 and would be PC and Wii U exclusive, it would push the systems performance at any rate. :)




www.youtube.com/@Pemalite

Michael-5 on 31 May 2013
KHlover said:
Michael-5 said:

I think Mario Kart Wii is a better example, have you tried to play Double Dash recently? Huge difference!

---

Wii U is above PS3/360, we just have to wait for a few exclusives to show that.

 

A few very nice screencaps from Miiverse, we already have some games looking better than anything on current gen consoles^^

I think future games like Pikmin 3, Smash Bros, Shadow of the Eternals, and Retro's project will show a bigger difference.



What is with all the hate? Don't read GamrReview Articles. Contact me to ADD games to the Database
Vote for the March Most Wanted / February Results

curl-6 on 31 May 2013
KHlover said:

[Need For Speed Most Wanted U]



[Nano Assault Neo]

A few very nice screencaps from Miiverse, we already have some games looking better than anything on current gen consoles^^

Don't forget Wii U's best looking game so far, Trine 2: Director's Cut:



Around the Network
cusman on 31 May 2013
DanneSandin said:
At least 1st party games will be and look great I guess... Though, we won't see many 3rd parties taking advantage of this.

What first party games? Do you mean the games that were supposed to release in launch window but never did?

Also... the Xbox One is supposed to use Cloud Computing to enhance "performance"... which is something 3rd parties wont utilize much either and last I checked Microsoft doesn't make much games themselves except for Forza and Halo and Kinect games.

Sony might be only one pushing hardware in the near future



curl-6 on 31 May 2013
Michael-5 said:
curl-6 said:
Michael-5 said:

Sonic Worlds looks noticably better then Sonic Generations...

I think the jump from Gamecube to Wii will be a bit smaller then the jump from PS3/360 to Wii U.

When Wii came out, it's best looking game was a Gamecube port (Zelda), and many games looked like N64 games (Red Steel). However not long down the road, Mario Kart Wii, Smash Bros, and Metroid Prime pushed the console a bit, and by the end games like Skyward Sword and XenoBlade really look much better then anything possible on the Gamecube. It's hard to accept, but if you actually played a gamecube game now, you would notice the difference.

Yeah, I'm replaying Twilight Princess now and while some of its effects still look great, the textures are very muddy.

The gap from Metroid Prime 2 to Prime 3 is a good indicator of the Gamecube-Wii divide; not a huge leap, but a noticeable step up in texture quality, scale, etc.

I think Mario Kart Wii is a better example, have you tried to play Double Dash recently? Huge difference!

---

Wii U is above PS3/360, we just have to wait for a few exclusives to show that.

Double Dash to MKWii is a notable difference, but I found Prime 2 to Prime 3's difference more telling, as it showed not just in added graphical flourishes like bloom, more complex particles, etc, but also in a very noticeable increase in environmental scale, with sweeping areas Prime 1 and 2 just didn't have.



Michael-5 on 31 May 2013
curl-6 said:
Michael-5 said:
curl-6 said:
Michael-5 said:

Sonic Worlds looks noticably better then Sonic Generations...

I think the jump from Gamecube to Wii will be a bit smaller then the jump from PS3/360 to Wii U.

When Wii came out, it's best looking game was a Gamecube port (Zelda), and many games looked like N64 games (Red Steel). However not long down the road, Mario Kart Wii, Smash Bros, and Metroid Prime pushed the console a bit, and by the end games like Skyward Sword and XenoBlade really look much better then anything possible on the Gamecube. It's hard to accept, but if you actually played a gamecube game now, you would notice the difference.

Yeah, I'm replaying Twilight Princess now and while some of its effects still look great, the textures are very muddy.

The gap from Metroid Prime 2 to Prime 3 is a good indicator of the Gamecube-Wii divide; not a huge leap, but a noticeable step up in texture quality, scale, etc.

I think Mario Kart Wii is a better example, have you tried to play Double Dash recently? Huge difference!

---

Wii U is above PS3/360, we just have to wait for a few exclusives to show that.

Double Dash to MKWii is a notable difference, but I found Prime 2 to Prime 3's difference more telling, as it showed not just in added graphical flourishes like bloom, more complex particles, etc, but also in a very noticeable increase in environmental scale, with sweeping areas Prime 1 and 2 just didn't have.

Maybe, I have yet to beat MP3, but from what I recall the game had a lot of dark gray indoor area's. Maybe I just haven't gotten to the sweeping outdoor area's, but I remember Pandora Drifts (i hope I got the name right) was particularly beautiful, and the musical score was so erie and suiting....most well done locale in a game IMO.



What is with all the hate? Don't read GamrReview Articles. Contact me to ADD games to the Database
Vote for the March Most Wanted / February Results

ViktorBKK on 31 May 2013
walsufnir said:
ViktorBKK said:
walsufnir said:
ViktorBKK said:
Let's take things from the start. Technically, CPU architecture refers to the instruction set of a CPU. Examples are, x86, ARM, MIPS etc.

Both the 360 and Wii U use PowerPC architecture. There is no "exotic" architecture involved, like PS3's mixed-core solution. Now obviously, some people want to believe that there is immense untapped power in this system. The cold hard truth is that Nintendo's system is based on 40-45nm silicon and runs at 75 Watts during full blown game-play. 80 dollar video cards from the same process node run at 100-130 watts. If you understand the principles of semi-conductor size and power consumption, then you know what I'm talking about. There is barely any hardware inside that console.


"Let's take things from the start. Technically, CPU architecture refers to the instruction set of a CPU. Examples are, x86, ARM, MIPS etc."

 

Right, this is called "ISA" (Instruction Set Architecture).

 

"Both the 360 and Wii U use PowerPC architecture."

 

Right, also PS3 (excluding the spes).

BUT: ISA means nothing. The way the instructions are implemented on the CPU, how the pipelining works, branch-prediction, cache-sizes... All this differs even with the same ISA.

Example: Pentium 4 and Pentium M.  Both were "x86" but still Pentium M was faster at lower clock rates. Why? Read above.

 

"There is barely any hardware inside that console."

 

This disqualifies yourself for all future technical discussions.


1) The PS3 also has RISC co-processors, so it is not just PowerPC.

2) I am sure you agree that porting code to a system that shares the same instruction set, requires less work than porting it to one that doesn't.

3) You may not like my wording, but you know its true. Less than 100 watts for an entire system that runs on 40/45nm hardware is literally nothing these days.


1) As I said if you had read my post.

2) No I don't because if you want performant code you also have to keep in mind how the cache is structured and how the whole system is designed. This will change your code in a massive way if you want it to be fitting to the system. Cache-aware coding is time-consuming but profilers will help you, of course. Of course, if you are lazy and don't use the system properly you get ports as we see them now.

Just look at the slides from Guerilla Games what they said about the memory layout of PS4 - this has nothing to do with the cpu but with understanding how the memory works on this system.

3) But only power consumption is not telling the whole truth. PS4 and Xbox One won't use 300 Watts either, so they are also "nothing"? Is a smartphone which is able to run emulators for systems like n64 hardware-wise nothing?

 

I think there is a lot of brainpower in the WiiU which we all don't see by now. It is definitely not capable like PS4/Xbox One but it should definitely ahead of ps360 to me.

The ports that are in the market now, wouldn't even exist, if the Wii U was a massively different platform. It is not identical to 360, but it's not something entirely different either. A truly different system would be for example: ARM CPU, GPU with separate vertex & pixel shaders, seperate pools of ram.

Keep in mind that PS4 & XOne will be on 28nm silicon, and they will probably be in the 150W range, possibly more. We 've seen the XOne, and that thing is massive for a reason. Power consumption, combined with fabrication proccess are a very good indicator of expected performance, as well as cooling requirements.



BossPuma on 31 May 2013

That better GPU really shows in the Zelda Tech demo, and Xenoblade 2. and im sure it will also in Bayonetta 2