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Forums - Gaming - 720 will Decide if WiiU RAM is enough.

happydolphin on 17 April 2013
Sal.Paradise said:

I really dislike that pic about the triangles. If they have 10 times the number available to them, they are not just going to use the same character model as before but smooth in the edges. They'll be able to, for example, give him more elaborate hair, more elaborate clothes, more minute facial details and so on. Very misleading. 

The fact remains that the more triangles you add, the less return you will get, whether it's on the hair, face, clothes and so on.

So the effect you see on the character, you see the same diminishing of return on the details.



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Sal.Paradise on 17 April 2013
happydolphin said:
Sal.Paradise said:

I really dislike that pic about the triangles. If they have 10 times the number available to them, they are not just going to use the same character model as before but smooth in the edges. They'll be able to, for example, give him more elaborate hair, more elaborate clothes, more minute facial details and so on. Very misleading. 

The fact remains that the more triangles you add, the less return you will get, whether it's on the hair, face, clothes and so on.

So the effect you see on the character, you see the same diminishing of return on the details.

I don't deny the fact that there will be diminishing returns in the ratio of polygons added: improvements noticed compared to other gens, but that picture is not representative of that difference at all, for the reasons I stated. 



S.T.A.G.E. on 17 April 2013
happydolphin said:
Netyaroze said:

Ofcourse its eyecandy and to answer your question everybody will own a 4k TV at some point.

 

Dude I am not arguing your opinion. I don't see a problem with it, just your examples of diminishing returns are weak. One graph made by a random videophile and that polygon pic referencing no extra videodetail are no arguments.

 

As I said before polygoncount is really just one aspect of good Graphics. So diminishing returns there don't tell the whole story.

 

And the difference between the SVOGI  (Basically  Lighting) less Unreal 4 demo and the one wigh SVOGI is so huge yoz could see it on a 240p Video. Unless you are blind you will see it. Its a new thing and gives games a certain  look we haven't seen before.  It would have been amazing.

 

Believe me you and everyone else will see it when the new gen runs full force games will just look different.

If you are right and it ends up making a significant shocking difference, then I will change my opinion. This far it's my opinion from what we saw at the playstation demo that the new stuff is nice to have, but not a deal-breaker like some here are trying to make it out to be (mostly out of extreme enthusiasm, which I don't condemn).

Ultimately I'm not sure if all these new features are just there to make it out of the box and much easier to program, or if it just is not possible atm. That's where I'm kind of lost.

Games this far are looking great to me, whether it's done via true simulation or by illusion, it's looking nice to me. TLoU, TLG, Beyond all that looks great. I'm not sure if these added features are there to make it all more easy to do in true simulation rather than in hard-coded illusion, or if it's actually not possible yet.


Look, I love the games that are coming out as well (especially from Sony) and they are pumping out great graphics and worlds but its time to take it a step further and devs have been proving their case in spades. I was questioning their motives just like you because I didnt expect such a leap in graphics. If you're a PC gamer this isn't that big of a leap, if you're a console gamer it's pretty damn big. I had to watch my roommate play the same games I was playing on console with a fully loaded PC and it is sad how much we missed out on graphically and when it comes to fluidity in these games. Now with next gen tech they will be pushing even more like animations, lighting, shading polygons, (quantic dream: Emoting), 

David Cage at the PS4 unveiling talking about next gen emotion and that its now finally possible physically to show emotion properly (also the jump in graphics from all of their games to the PS4's hardware polygon count). He stated that the quality reserved for CG films is now available on consoles in games.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw1l_C4kXrg

Unreal 4 tech demos (as per your Gears of War comment):

(Newest) Infiltrator demo (2013):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bLOi3mo9NE

(Oldest) Samartian demo (2011):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdwHrCT5jr0

Next gen is waiting. Theres nothing to hold it back now. This is what I have been waiting for from games or at least close to it.



happydolphin on 17 April 2013
Sal.Paradise said:

I don't deny the fact that there will be diminishing returns in the ratio of polygons added: improvements noticed compared to other gens, but that picture is not representative of that difference at all, for the reasons I stated. 

It is, just on a different scale. It's the same principle. The image may be misleading, but it represents the principle adequately.



Sal.Paradise on 17 April 2013
happydolphin said:
Sal.Paradise said:

I don't deny the fact that there will be diminishing returns in the ratio of polygons added: improvements noticed compared to other gens, but that picture is not representative of that difference at all, for the reasons I stated. 

It is, just on a different scale. It's the same principle. The image may be misleading, but it represents the principle adequately.

Lol ok, we agree. The same principle, but a misleading example. That's what really annoys me about it.

(I also like how his hair is just a fat grey blob, convenient because hair is by far the least convincing aspect of character models today, and the one that will see the most benefit with icnreased power.) 



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Rafux on 17 April 2013
happydolphin said:
Mazty said:

Right so because the PS1 was better than the SNES, that means we didn't need the PS2 or 3....

The post-Sony conference hype shows that graphics are appealing to many gamers, somthing devs recognise is important to gaming as a whole. 

"In your eyes"....eyes that have never seen cutting edge graphics. Come back when you literally aren't, and I mean this again in the literal sense, so ignorant on the topic. The issue is you are trying to criticise something you have never, ever seen. Ignorance is not an argument. 

If I, having been a gamer since my young age, having been on gaming forums and exposed to threads that compare graphics, if I can't get it, do you expect the masses to?

If I'm ignorant on the matter, then I am just guessing that the market is not much more informed than I am, so sorry.

@bold. Again, diminishing returns. Back then the jump made a big difference. Not as much today, despite all you guys have said this far the differences between games like TLoU and the Killzone demo will only be truly visible to those who know the differences thanks to theory on 3D grahpics, or who are looking at excrutiating detail.

Let's not get ad hominem.


You do realize that the new PS4 tech will not only bring new amazing graphics right? Games like LittleBigPlanet wouldn't have been possible without the PS3, Knack on the PS4 shows some crazy particle effects and physics, showing hundreds of zombies in Dead Rising on X360 was also possible thanks to the new tech, we will see some new things next gen that just can't be possible on current gen.

And for starters Killzone Shadow Fall a launch game looks way better than any previous Killzone on PS3 and at 1080P yes it is 30FPS but Killzone has never been a fast shooter like COD on the other hand not one WiiU game looks dramatically better than its PS360 counterpart.



Netyaroze on 17 April 2013
happydolphin said:

If you are right and it ends up making a significant shocking difference, then I will change my opinion. This far it's my opinion from what we saw at the playstation demo that the new stuff is nice to have, but not a deal-breaker like some here are trying to make it out to be (mostly out of extreme enthusiasm, which I don't condemn).

Ultimately I'm not sure if all these new features are just there to make it out of the box and much easier to program, or if it just is not possible atm. That's where I'm kind of lost.

Games this far are looking great to me, whether it's done via true simulation or by illusion, it's looking nice to me. TLoU, TLG, Beyond all that looks great. I'm not sure if these added features are there to make it all more easy to do in true simulation rather than in hard-coded illusion, or if it's actually not possible yet.


What we saw at the presentation is just the beginning. There are many new features that next gen consoles can use to their full potential that will change graphics alot. Uncharted will still look good but it will look old at one point.  Every gen has its limitations that become appearent after we see the next gen. This will happen again. People just don't know what else can be improved once they see it PS3/360 games will look dated. 

 

 



S.T.A.G.E. on 17 April 2013
Rafux said:
happydolphin said:
Mazty said:

Right so because the PS1 was better than the SNES, that means we didn't need the PS2 or 3....

The post-Sony conference hype shows that graphics are appealing to many gamers, somthing devs recognise is important to gaming as a whole. 

"In your eyes"....eyes that have never seen cutting edge graphics. Come back when you literally aren't, and I mean this again in the literal sense, so ignorant on the topic. The issue is you are trying to criticise something you have never, ever seen. Ignorance is not an argument. 

If I, having been a gamer since my young age, having been on gaming forums and exposed to threads that compare graphics, if I can't get it, do you expect the masses to?

If I'm ignorant on the matter, then I am just guessing that the market is not much more informed than I am, so sorry.

@bold. Again, diminishing returns. Back then the jump made a big difference. Not as much today, despite all you guys have said this far the differences between games like TLoU and the Killzone demo will only be truly visible to those who know the differences thanks to theory on 3D grahpics, or who are looking at excrutiating detail.

Let's not get ad hominem.


You do realize that the new PS4 tech will not only bring new amazing graphics right? Games like LittleBigPlanet wouldn't have been possible without the PS3, Knack on the PS4 shows some crazy particle effects and physics, showing hundreds of zombies in Dead Rising on X360 was also possible thanks to the new tech, we will see some new things next gen that just can't be possible on current gen.

And for starters Killzone Shadow Fall a launch game looks way better than any previous Killzone on PS3 and at 1080P yes it is 30FPS but Killzone has never been a fast shooter like COD on the other hand not one WiiU game looks dramatically better than its PS360 counterpart.


To think that game isnt even pushing the PS4 tech. Can't wait to see a game that actually does. Killzone 4 looks so beautiful! 



happydolphin on 17 April 2013
S.T.A.G.E. said:

Look, I love the games that are coming out as well (especially from Sony) and they are pumping out great graphics and worlds but its time to take it a step further and devs have been proving their case in spades. I was questioning their motives just like you because I didnt expect such a leap in graphics. If you're a PC gamer this isn't that big of a leap, if you're a console gamer it's pretty damn big. I had to watch my roommate play the same games I was playing on console with a fully loaded PC and it is sad how much we missed out on graphically and when it comes to fluidity in these games. Now with next gen tech they will be pushing even more like animations, lighting, shading polygons, (quantic dream: Emoting), 

David Cage at the PS4 unveiling talking about next gen emotion and that its now finally possible physically to show emotion properly (also the jump in graphics from all of their games to the PS4's hardware polygon count). He stated that the quality reserved for CG films is now available on consoles in games.:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tw1l_C4kXrg

Unreal 4 tech demos (as per your Gears of War comment):

(Newest) Infiltrator demo (2013):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bLOi3mo9NE

(Oldest) Samartian demo (2011):http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdwHrCT5jr0

Next gen is waiting. Theres nothing to hold it back now. This is what I have been waiting for from games or at least close to it.

Now you're just getting me excited. Stop it! Lulz :)

But again, looking at those Unreal demos it shows me that all that stuff is possible today, minus the smoke, minus the lights, minus some of the finer detail. The David Cage stuff is, I admit, very impressive. Then again so is Beyond. So again diminishing returns. 

I was also watching my roomie play Darksiders 2 and it looked much better than darksiders which my other roomie was playing on 360, but it was just more crisp, clear and pretty, kind of like wearing a better set of prescription glasses after wearing the same glasses for a few years. It's nice for sure but it isn't the be all end all of gaming.

I agree the improvements are exciting, but it's not like it'll make the stuff unplayable on the U and that's what I was trying to say. For COD Wii it did make a huge difference, like wearing the wrong prescription of glasses. Here, it's 21/20 vision rather than say idk 20/25 vision. The thing is still playable, it just isn't as nice.

If that compromise isn't reasonable we'll just have to agree to disagree, or until more is seen from both systems. I'm going to get a U and a PS4/720 (one or the other depending on certain factors), but in the end I'm not sure this graphics thing will be more than eye candy at this stage in the game (the industry as a whole). We're reaching a point soon where new consoles won't be needed. I'm pretty sure of that.



happydolphin on 17 April 2013
Sal.Paradise said:

Lol ok, we agree. The same principle, but a misleading example. That's what really annoys me about it.

(I also like how his hair is just a fat grey blob, convenient because hair is by far the least convincing aspect of character models today, and the one that will see the most benefit with icnreased power.) 

His hair may very well be animated with blob-mechanics or something similar due to its style. Texture would be enough there. What I mean by this is that some animations would suffice to give a proper visual representation of a real-world object without having to go with full-scale simulation. 

I agree that it would be different in the case of a long straight-haired character. Mind you, we already have hair dynamics current gen I believe, so again diminishing returns would apply.