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Forums - Gaming - Pachter On Next-Gen. NeXbox and Sony will be a success, WiiU crappy product

RolStoppable said:
DanneSandin said:
I don't understand all the hate he's getting from Nintendo fans... It's time to wake up and smell the disaster that is the Wii U, and I'm a Nintendo fan myself, mind you. It's not going too well, and this is what Pachter sees and this is what he's basing his arguments on. I do believe it'll start to sell well as soon as they release some solid 1st party games (as evident by the bump the Wii U sales got by Lego City and MH3U), but that hasn't happened yet. And to think that Mario Kart or 3D Mario or Zelda is gonna sell 50m is just stupid. That's not gonna happen. This is a new GC or N64, and as a gamer, that's not bad at all! GC and N64 gave us some fantastic games! BUT as a company, that's not what Nintendo wants or needs, and that's not what will get investors to invest. So stop the needless hate and try to see the big picture for once. I'm tired of all the bashing Pachter gets around here. Sometimes he's way out of line, saying stupid ass shit things, but the last two threads I've seen about him he's been very reasonable, and the Nintendo fans being Unreasonable!!

Pachter said that the Wii U is two years too late. This implies that the Wii U could have succeeded, if only the timing was right. The only reason why Pachter says this is because he views Wii U as the Wii HD he always suggested. Basically, if Nintendo had listened to Pachter and released the Wii HD in 2009 or 2010, then the company would be in great shape.

It's clear that Nintendo isn't doing well, but had they listened to Pachter, they would be off even worse today.

That doesn't change the fact that what Pachter is observing now with Nintendo is any less right. His observations are right regarding Nintendo at their current state. He says 3DS will probably continue to sell around 15m a year, which seems reasonable enough, and that Wii U isn't doing to well, which it isn't.

And I can understand why Pachter thinks the Wii U is 2 years too late; had it come out in 2010 the whole tablet controller would still be new, and Nintendo would have caught up with MSony with regards to online services, and it would have been graphically on par with the PS360. Now, it's too little too late. I'm not saying that Pachter is right in thinking this, but I can see why he is thinking like that.

From a business point of view Wii U will not do as well as Wii, and will probably struggle to keep up with PS720 - and therefore it will be a bad investment to invest in, and it's this that Pachter is talking about. Is he wrong? Tell me truthfully, without side tracking about Pachter's thought on Wii HD and such; is Nintendo a good investment right now, and do you see it changing withing the short term? And this will probably be the biggest year for the 3DS with Pokémon and AC:NL releasing in the west, but after this year it'll probably decline in sales - perhaps not by much, but this year (or the next one) will be the high point of the 3DS, and the Western market haven't even caught on yet. Do you see Nintendo's fortune's improving here on?



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

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mii-gamer said:
DanneSandin said:
mii-gamer said:
DanneSandin said:
I don't understand all the hate he's getting from Nintendo fans... It's time to wake up and smell the disaster that is the Wii U, and I'm a Nintendo fan myself, mind you. It's not going too well, and this is what Pachter sees and this is what he's basing his arguments on. I do believe it'll start to sell well as soon as they release some solid 1st party games (as evident by the bump the Wii U sales got by Lego City and MH3U), but that hasn't happened yet. And to think that Mario Kart or 3D Mario or Zelda is gonna sell 50m is just stupid. That's not gonna happen. This is a new GC or N64, and as a gamer, that's not bad at all! GC and N64 gave us some fantastic games! BUT as a company, that's not what Nintendo wants or needs, and that's not what will get investors to invest. So stop the needless hate and try to see the big picture for once. I'm tired of all the bashing Pachter gets around here. Sometimes he's way out of line, saying stupid ass shit things, but the last two threads I've seen about him he's been very reasonable, and the Nintendo fans being Unreasonable!!

so calling the Wii U a crappy product a reasonable statement?

From his point of view, yes. It's not making any money for them, and it's not selling any games, making it a bad investment. It doesn't look like it'll be able to compete with PS720 - unless Sony/MS fucks up big time (which MS just might do), making it a bad investment. Personally, I love the whole idea behind it, and can't wait to get me one, but from a business POV... it's not all that great.


Yep you have to judge console only on the Launch window. There is absolutely no way the Wii u can make a comeback- pachter is righ, the wii u is a crappy product.

That's not what I'm aying, and that's not even what Pachter is saying. He said that they don't judge the success of a product until after it's 3 holiday sales, so that would mean that it has until x-mas 2014 to prove itself. But right now it isn't looking too well, and that's what he'll report to his investors. Just try to stop looking at this from a gamers point of view, because that's not how Pachter sees it, yet that's how you criticize him. It's not doing very well right now, and that doesn't look to change in the foreseeable future.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

Mazty said:
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:

The 3DS doesn't matter BECAUSE it's sales won't be astronomical.

Do you really expect one game to carry Nintendo? Fair enough; I can't seee how one game will make 1.1 billion dollars as currently the Wii U is being sold at a lost and sure as hell won't have recouped it's R&D costs. 

You still don't get my point.  YOu originally said the 3DS didn't count and now you are saying why it won't.  My original statement was that they are both a part of nintendo and since then you have acknowledged that it is all I was saying.  Read my previous posts.  I don't have a prediction at this time, but I do predict pokemon to be in the top 3 games on a single platform this year and I do predict the 3DS to be the number one selling console this year by a wide margin.

As for the WiiU I have no prediction as of this moment.


Lol er dude, ever done a basic science report before? Statement followed by reasoning is hardly something to criticise........Pokemon may sell well. The 3DS may be the best selling handheld this year but ultimately will those two things generate the revenue required? I don't believe they will, and being the best selling "console" (its a handheld, not a static console, ergo bit of a arbitrary comparison) when the others are at the end of their run is hardly anything to be declared as a success, or a successful revenue stream.

As I said, the Wii U currently has R&D costs to recooperate, and is being sold at a lost. Ironically the low sales may help negate the latter part, but low sales will not help with the former. 


I'm guessing you don't know what the mark up value is on the Software on 3DS & Wii U, but especially 3DS software mark-up value.



Kaizar said:
DanneSandin said:
I don't understand all the hate he's getting from Nintendo fans... It's time to wake up and smell the disaster that is the Wii U, and I'm a Nintendo fan myself, mind you. It's not going too well, and this is what Pachter sees and this is what he's basing his arguments on. I do believe it'll start to sell well as soon as they release some solid 1st party games (as evident by the bump the Wii U sales got by Lego City and MH3U), but that hasn't happened yet. And to think that Mario Kart or 3D Mario or Zelda is gonna sell 50m is just stupid. That's not gonna happen. This is a new GC or N64, and as a gamer, that's not bad at all! GC and N64 gave us some fantastic games! BUT as a company, that's not what Nintendo wants or needs, and that's not what will get investors to invest. So stop the needless hate and try to see the big picture for once. I'm tired of all the bashing Pachter gets around here. Sometimes he's way out of line, saying stupid ass shit things, but the last two threads I've seen about him he's been very reasonable, and the Nintendo fans being Unreasonable!!


Samething was said about the 3DS when it was 4 months & 5 months in its life spam.

But there is a really big difference between Wii U and 3DS; 3DS has ONE competitor, while Wii U will have TWO of them. Wii U will really be competing with FOUR consoles; PS360 and PS720 because it has such weak specs. It's like comparing apples and oranges.

I'm not saying Wii U is doomed to fail (although it's really looking like that's the case right now); with a price cut and some awesome 1st party games it could make a strong come back. But I'd say that Nintendo's best chance is to make the Wii U the SECOND console, just like Wii was to many gamers. Make it cheap enough for people to buy it despite them already having another console. It's time to face the facts, and that is that Wii U probably will never see strong 3rd party support (not in the way PS720 will have anyways), and this will harm the console.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

Kaizar said:
Mazty said:
JayWood2010 said:
Mazty said:

The 3DS doesn't matter BECAUSE it's sales won't be astronomical.

Do you really expect one game to carry Nintendo? Fair enough; I can't seee how one game will make 1.1 billion dollars as currently the Wii U is being sold at a lost and sure as hell won't have recouped it's R&D costs. 

You still don't get my point.  YOu originally said the 3DS didn't count and now you are saying why it won't.  My original statement was that they are both a part of nintendo and since then you have acknowledged that it is all I was saying.  Read my previous posts.  I don't have a prediction at this time, but I do predict pokemon to be in the top 3 games on a single platform this year and I do predict the 3DS to be the number one selling console this year by a wide margin.

As for the WiiU I have no prediction as of this moment.


Lol er dude, ever done a basic science report before? Statement followed by reasoning is hardly something to criticise........Pokemon may sell well. The 3DS may be the best selling handheld this year but ultimately will those two things generate the revenue required? I don't believe they will, and being the best selling "console" (its a handheld, not a static console, ergo bit of a arbitrary comparison) when the others are at the end of their run is hardly anything to be declared as a success, or a successful revenue stream.

As I said, the Wii U currently has R&D costs to recooperate, and is being sold at a lost. Ironically the low sales may help negate the latter part, but low sales will not help with the former. 


I'm guessing you don't know what the mark up value is on the Software on 3DS & Wii U, but especially 3DS software mark-up value.

A piece of friendly advice: don't try to argue with Mazty. It's impossible. He's so incredibly biased against Nintendo I would be surprised if he even admitted Wii or DS being successful consoles for Nintendo... I've tried arguing with him, but it leads nowhere. Not worth the energy. Seriously.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

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Kaizar said:
Mazty said:

Lol er dude, ever done a basic science report before? Statement followed by reasoning is hardly something to criticise........Pokemon may sell well. The 3DS may be the best selling handheld this year but ultimately will those two things generate the revenue required? I don't believe they will, and being the best selling "console" (its a handheld, not a static console, ergo bit of a arbitrary comparison) when the others are at the end of their run is hardly anything to be declared as a success, or a successful revenue stream.

As I said, the Wii U currently has R&D costs to recooperate, and is being sold at a lost. Ironically the low sales may help negate the latter part, but low sales will not help with the former. 


I'm guessing you don't know what the mark up value is on the Software on 3DS & Wii U, but especially 3DS software mark-up value.


It'll be high - any idea on the specific figure?



so it's crappy cause it hasn't the power of the ps4? the console itself is really awesome, gamepad and pro cotnroller are really comfortable, and the loading issues will be also handled well soon.



RicardJulianti said:
DanneSandin said:
I don't understand all the hate he's getting from Nintendo fans... It's time to wake up and smell the disaster that is the Wii U, and I'm a Nintendo fan myself, mind you. It's not going too well, and this is what Pachter sees and this is what he's basing his arguments on. I do believe it'll start to sell well as soon as they release some solid 1st party games (as evident by the bump the Wii U sales got by Lego City and MH3U), but that hasn't happened yet. And to think that Mario Kart or 3D Mario or Zelda is gonna sell 50m is just stupid. That's not gonna happen. This is a new GC or N64, and as a gamer, that's not bad at all! GC and N64 gave us some fantastic games! BUT as a company, that's not what Nintendo wants or needs, and that's not what will get investors to invest. So stop the needless hate and try to see the big picture for once. I'm tired of all the bashing Pachter gets around here. Sometimes he's way out of line, saying stupid ass shit things, but the last two threads I've seen about him he's been very reasonable, and the Nintendo fans being Unreasonable!!


Pachter speaks as if there is literally nothing Nintendo can do to increase sales and the Wii U should just be scrapped. He also thinks Nintendo won't turn a profit this upcoming fiscal year....when they have things like Pikmin, W101, Mario, Mario Kart, WWHD, Retro's project, Pokemon Rumble (going to be huge in Japan) and Pokemon X&Y....then you get into the unknowns on Wii U (X, SMTxFE, Yoshi, unannounced titles), every single 3DS sale and whatever else is released on 3DS. I hope he realizes that when Iwata speaks about 1.1 billion, he is speaking in Yen which is only $11million USD. Nintendo might post that overall for the last FY even.

No one thinks Mario, Mario Kart, and WWHD are going to sell 50m. They will most definitely push the system up into the 12-15million range this year and thinking the Wii U could reach 50m in its lifetime is not completely unreasonable.

The problem with Pachter is how he blindly hates on Nintendo even though they make his "predictions" incorrect over and over again. He flips on just about everything he says, but hardly ever says anything bad about anyone but Nintendo. They are expanding while just about every other company is downsizing, they constantly turn a profit, only posting 1 annual loss in their history right around the time when the economy was near its worst and when the Yen was far too high comparatively. Investors invest if they are likely to see their money increase, with Nintendo's track record of posting profits (they even did so for one of the Wii's last 2 years, when it was effectively dead), it is a very smart investment.

Sony on the other hand, has a credit status of literally "Junk" which tells investors (see: the people Pachter should be appealing to) that they are taking a huge risk in investing, yet he doesn't say a word on it, their downsizing, selling of stock and HQ's....none of it.

He also has this crazy notion the Skype is a "killer-app." I mean, what the hell? Those kids that will "bug their parents to buy an Xbox" probably already have laptops with Skype and cell phones with Skype. As do the parents. He has even admitted to pulling predictions straight out of his ass. He says as many things as he can and hopes something sticks so that when it does, he can say "See? I told you." He is absolutely unreasonable.

While many of his statements are complete bull, he's not absolutely unreasonable. All I'm saying is that he's getting a lot of uncalled for flake from Nintendo fans. As of right now, Wii U is struggling like no other console bar the Dreamcast (looking at a week to week basis here, not over all sales) and the 3DS isn't selling particularly well in the West (but come Pokémon/AC:NL, this might all change). So, looking at those two facts I'd say Nintendo is in a pickle and I therefore understand Pachter's criticism.

The thing is, you're making solid arguments against Pachter, while most N-fans just are bashing him for bashing the Big N. And that's what I'm opposed.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

savisn said:

I can't think of a financial analyst in any other industry that I've ever followed that seemed to understand less about the markets and products he covers. Patcher seems more like an enthusiast than an investment advisor.

His views on the market and how it might evolve are one thing - after all when 1 of 3 consoles is out and is still in its infancy it's all a guessing game. He is correct with some of Wii U's weaknesses and potential for it to fail (although he seems to overlook some strengths and things it may be able to do well).

Where he really fails is his utter lack of understanding of the economics of the companies he follows. I invest in Nintendo so I'll use them as an example:

1. A few months ago he went on and on about the 3DS price cut and how Nintendo was losing money on every sale. This was despite the fact that about two months earlier in the mid-year financial report Nintendo had reported that the costs were out and that every 3DS sold was now at a profit.

2. He made similar statements about Wii U software attachment rates. I can't be bothered to look for it but I believe he used 1 as the attachment. This was right after their quarterly report which shows it around 3. The amount of software that would have had to be in stores (assuming he was using retail sales) was something like 5 million units which would have been 50% of all software sold. It made 0 sense and was clearly wrong

3. He thinks there is no way Nintendo will turn a profit next year. This is despite the fact that they will come close and may even have turned a profit for FY2012 despite 3DS being sold at a loss for 1/2 a year and launch costs for WiiU. 3DS is likely to sell as much or more hardware this year as last and every sale will be at a profit. It's almost guaranteed to sell more software with a higher installed base and with Pokemon, MH4, AC (US and Europe), and Tomodochi coming out this FY. WiiU may flounder but they will be driving costs out of it to probably get it profitable or nearly so and software sales will go up. Add in the fact that depreciation expenses are going down (they are very high due to a lot of Capital spending for the the 3DS and WiiU) and it's very very unlikely they don't turn a profit. Tack on Japanese financial easing and it could be even better.

I could understand if he just said he's stay away from Nintendo because he thinks they are being poorly managed and investors will get better returns elsewhere. There is a strong case for that as evidenced by Nintendo selling near book value despite the best IP in the business. But to be so clearly wrong about verifiable facts and to constantly do such poor analysis is inexcusable. I'm just amazed anyone would listen to that guy for financial advice.

THIS is very good arguments against Pachter,something we don't see very often around here. Keep it up!



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

wouldnt really call it a crappy product... it just hasnt found a viable identity so far. there is some redeeming factors in the device