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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Some Japanese Dev claims SSBB is unfit for Wii

I'm sick of the "Hardcore\Casual" label, can somebody tell me what a hardcore game is? Just what is it that people look for when they decide some thing is hardcore or casual? Is it violence? Is it difficulty? Is it complexity? Is it HD graphics? Epic Storylines?

I like games that are easy to learn but hard to master. I like complexity, but not micromanagement.

I don't care if a game is violent or not, so long as it is good. I like good storylines, but hate being overloaded with long drawn out cutscences. I actually like a bit of frustrating difficultly so long as it isn't taken too far or the result of crappy controls. 

Graphics are important but not at the expense of gameplay.

My favorite games include SMW, SM64, SMS, Super Metroid, Metroid Prime, Perfect Dark, Zelda (all of them), QFG I-IV, KOTOR, C&C RA2 + Generals, X-Wing series, Contra, Castlevania (esp. IV and SOTN), POP-Sands of Time, Battlefront, etc. etc.

I want to play Mass Effect, SM Galaxy, MP3, SSBB, Assasins Creed, GTA IV, COD4 etc. etc. 

On the other hand a detest most Final Fantasy like games, except Suikoden 2, I'm still not sure why I like that one.  

Am I a hardcore gamer or a casual gamer?



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redspear said:
Press the Button go and play the original Ninja Gaiden that games was hard and not just anybody could play that. Most games today are way too easy because they try to do overly complicated things and hold your hand through the entire game. Console FPS comes to mind. In fact I think that is the reason that online play is so much more fun today because ti reintroduces a measure of skill. I haven't seen a game that I can't beat in a less than 3 days in a long time.

 I agree with console FPS - I prefer FPS on PC for that reason, but even that genre is being dumbed down due to the need to develop games for the consoles and PC.

 Game makers are trying to do overly complicated things cos a) the technology can cope with the complication now, whereas the NES, C64, Amiga etc couldn't and b) cos that's what the market (read - the tradtional game buying market) wants. If a simplistic shooter turned up on the PC, or 360 or PS3 it's be slatted by the press and probably sell poorly as a result.

 

 



I am largely platform agnostic. I fail to understand why some people get overly fanboyish about what is an inanimate piece of electronics that's obsolete even before it's launched, when there are far more important things to champion, such as preventing environmental destruction or preventing millions of people dying unnecessarily from illnesses. This fact however, doesn’t mean I am not someone who doesn’t enjoy gaming as a pastime (as I have done for the last 20 years) or doesn’t have a strong interest in how the market is evolving – hence my presence on this site.

Platforms owned – PC, DS, X-Box 360, PS3, PSP and Wii.

Dodece said:
While I agree with the premise hardcore games have had at best a checkered past on the console, and if you remove Nintendo from the equation the light of hope vanishes from the room. Call them Hardcore, Mature, or Advanced. Whatever the name you choose they do not perform well. Their casual brethren are gold mines, while they are money pits.

That said I do not agree with the game being sighted for demonstration purposes. First it is a franchise with name brand recognition. We all know that improves sales regardless of quality. The next Final Fantasy can be utter garbage and sell over two million copies on name alone. Second a strong lack of competition on its respective console will only increase sales. Red Steel sold so well on the Wii thanks to absolutely no competition in its genre and a weak library to contend with at the time. A great game with little competition will do well.

The third reason its a bad game to sight for this phenomena, and it is blatantly obvious. Smash Brothers as a game and as a franchise was never a hardcore or mature game to begin with. This is a old school casual game. I know some don't want to even think they are hyped about a casual game, but casual is not a four letter word synonymous with a bowel movement. This is a game that anyone can play. This is a fast paced button masher with simple controls that are quickly picked up, and thanks to the frantic nature of the battle it could make your retarded cousin look like a idiot savant on occasion. Having skill is a good thing, and the game might even support it, but its hardly a requirement to play it and have fun.

The game will do exceedingly well on par with Mario Party, because it is basically Mario Party version of a fighting game. That means it is exactly what Wii owners want for their console. I can't imagine this game selling less then three million copies in its first month of sales. Now if that were to happen it would be akin to an atom bomb going off in the developers ranks. They will assume only the most ultra casual game on the platform is a safe bet. Rather then even remotely trying to push that envelope.

 Actually, I agree with a lot of the article.  

"The Wii's audience is vastly different from the other consoles' and previous generations, that much should be obvious by now. The undisputed major titles are Wii Sports and Wii Fit aimed squarely at, what we mistakenly and slightly patronizingly call "non-gamers". I guess the term should be "previously non-gamers" or “differently interested gamers” but ideally the real terminologies should be "gamers", people who enjoy games of any shape and size, and "hard-core gamers","

Especially the current other consoles.  Now 'late buyers' of the PS2, I think were more casual, and the games that made it to that console reflect that.  I also like the idea that he has that the casuals are just gamers, ones that want to have fun with the game.  The hard-core are the ones that want to 'work' at a game.  How many times have you heard, 'Ehhh... they made the game too easy"?  Why should fun be very hard and very frustrating?  

"To be played best, allegedly, you will need to purchase a classic controller or dust off your old Gamecube controllers. It possibly requires a lot of time to unlock all the events if it's anything like its Gamecube prequel. The fans are rabidly excited (as am I) and it's out on Thursday."   

'Allegedly'...  so he's going by what others have said, he admits he doesn't really know.  But still he is 'rabidly excited about it'.

"If Sumabura (SSBB) doesn’t sell that well it would be proof positive that the Wii isn’t a hard-core friendly platform. I suspect already that it isn’t, but a title like this could prove it once and for all."

Now here it gets a bit messy.  Will the majority of the gamers, (ie casuals) want to play SSBB?  Those that currently play Nintendogs on their DS, or just do the mini-party games?  I suspect he is right.  They won't.  Will those that love a fun, humorous fighting game as SSBB games have been love it, with the Wiimote or classic style controllers?  I think that they will.  It *IS* a Mario Party fighting game.  Which is why this game would be poorer on the X360 or PS3.  They don't have bar brawls in their games.  The same 'style' of game there would be about sleathily going about and have Peach get a head shot in on Mario with her Uzi.  Not that you'd have a game on the X360/PS3 with a 'Peach' character in it.

"This also means the Wii is out of the “console war”. It has its own market distinctly different from its competitors, whom must fight amongst themselves for their own top spot. Both Microsoft and Sony are making wooing noises to the casual market but they’ll have a hard time stealing customers from the big N."

Poorly worded.  If Microsoft and Sony can't get any of the casual gamers, and N. keeps the hardcore gamers that like to have fun while they are 'working' at their game,  it might not matter that those interested only in HD graphics, etc are not Wii buyers.

"The reality is that the regular gamer market has outgrown the hard-core one, in terms of numbers at least, and that the hard-core is becoming increasingly niche."

Because, niche by definition with competition, is harder to make money in.  As both Sony and Microsoft are finding out.

"And that’d be a shame. With lower development budgets for Wii titles it offers a good platform for niche or truly original hard-core titles, as opposed to the mega-projects that make Xbox and Playstation development so risky these days. But if nobody buys them, what is the point?"

And if the niche within the niche are so expensive to build that you can't make a profit on what you do sell, what's the point there?  Better to try a less costly development for a console with a lot of buyers, in hopes that enough will buy.  

Overall, I think he had the right facts.  Just that his conclusions were either poorly written ('out of the console war' because N. already won its goal) or not all the way thought out. 

 



Torturing the numbers.  Hear them scream.

Bodhesatva said:

Just to point this out, this person is clearly talking exclusively about the Japanese market, and there really is some concern about hardcore games on the Wii in Japan.

Galaxy did fine, but significantly less well than in America/EU, for example. 

No, if anything you could say there's some concern about hardcore games in general.

Mario Galaxy did fine, and much better than Minna No Golf. Other games that also did better than Minna No Golf include the very disappointing Zelda (according to Miyamoto himself), Super Paper Mario, and even third party Dragon Quest Swords. And this is Minna No Golf we're talking.

As to the topic, where exactly should the game go to then? This game is like pure fan service - Nintendo style. Yeah, lets put it on a Playstation, it will sure do much better there.



Reality has a Nintendo bias.

Yeah............. let's just for sales than.
It wil be a million seller even just considering Japan.



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Wait, he doesn't think SSBB will do that well? XD



Press_the_Button said:

As for Super Mario Galaxy and Twilight Princess - both are established, respected amd highly hyped brands that appealed to Nintendo fans - hence all those went out to buy then, plus both feature bright colourful, cartoon like characters/graphics hence appeal to the casual market more than gritty, adult, blood and guts FPS's.

The label for "gritty, adult, blood and guts" is not "hardcore," it is "Mature" and it is provided by the ESRB.

This topic lacks intelligent discourse.  I give it two funny Pikachu hats out of five.



Words Of Wisdom said:
Press_the_Button said:

As for Super Mario Galaxy and Twilight Princess - both are established, respected amd highly hyped brands that appealed to Nintendo fans - hence all those went out to buy then, plus both feature bright colourful, cartoon like characters/graphics hence appeal to the casual market more than gritty, adult, blood and guts FPS's.

The label for "gritty, adult, blood and guts" is not "hardcore," it is "Mature" and it is provided by the ESRB.

This topic lacks intelligent discourse.  I give it two funny Pikachu hats out of five.


OK, far point. Forget the "adult, blood and guts" part, my original point still stands - that FPS are more of a genre that appeal to 'hardcore' gamers.



I am largely platform agnostic. I fail to understand why some people get overly fanboyish about what is an inanimate piece of electronics that's obsolete even before it's launched, when there are far more important things to champion, such as preventing environmental destruction or preventing millions of people dying unnecessarily from illnesses. This fact however, doesn’t mean I am not someone who doesn’t enjoy gaming as a pastime (as I have done for the last 20 years) or doesn’t have a strong interest in how the market is evolving – hence my presence on this site.

Platforms owned – PC, DS, X-Box 360, PS3, PSP and Wii.

I like Bacon said:
Wait, he doesn't think SSBB will do that well? XD

 Well i think by "Do that well" he means sell less then 8 Million.



I don't think in terms of "casual" and "hard core" games/gamers, but rather casual/hard core gaming.

Most games, video games and others, can be played in both casual and hard core "modes". And many people play both modes, depending on situation and mood. Wii Play, Halo, Pac Man, fussball, Yahtzee, Trivial Pursuit, tennis - all can be played "casual" or "hardcore".