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Forums - General - A supreme irony, but some would say they had it coming.

Raze said:

I don't follow the church either, I find church is everywhere and anywhere. I was always told God is everywhere, and always ready to listen, so I talk to Him whenever, wherever. I believe that humankind is too flawed to tell me what God wants, so I get direction directly from the source. We get so caught up in all the dogma, the rituals, obligations, etc. Is a person really strong in faith because they attend church every week and go through the motions , while checking the time until they can get out? Imagine having a friend come visit you, and the whole time, he's just killing time until he can leave. Not really a fun visit, is it?

When you can find faith by wanting to have faith, not because your parents tell you "that's the way it is", then there's reward in it. I've ong left the Catholic faith in practice, but fall in that category of "non-descript Christian".  God gave us free will to make our choices in life, and thus I never tell anyone to believe anything they don't feel inclined to. People need to come to their decisions on the matter on their own. Anyone who forces you too is just holding you back from that journey. After all, no one likes being told what to do. =)

I'll just say two things to this:
1) Proverbs 15:22 and 2) Psalm 133:1

If you wanna get from the source, you've been doing it wrong.



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Trunkin said:
DanneSandin said:
Trunkin said:
DanneSandin said:
Trunkin said:
DanneSandin said:
I don't think we'll see the extinction of Christianity very soon - if ever. They'll survive as some odd cult at the very least. But if we're looking at what Christianity has become, none is true Christians any more. I mean, how many people are stoning gays? Or selling their daughters as slaves? Not a whole lot of them. So I'd call todays Christians for... Post-modern Christians; they have adopted a much more modern way of looking at things, or THEY would be the ones getting stoned...

But I'm glad to live in a world where more and more people are becoming Atheists - in no way can that be a bad sign of things to come. I just wish we'd see more of this also happening in the Middle East...


You're joking, right?

If you're referring to the bolded part; no, I'm not. I wouldn't call Christians of today for "real, hardcore" Christians. They've cherry picked what they want to believe from the Bible - but that goes for almost ALL religion; they've chosen by large what they want to adhere to, and what to ignore. The Bible clearly states that you have the right to sell your daughter as a slave, and not even the most fundamental Creationist would do that (I hope).

Religion these days are all about cherry picking the good parts - as well as they should; there are some pretty horrible things in most religious texts.

I find it flabbergasting that you can say that "true" Christians would be all for stoning gays and "selling their daughters" when Christ, the founder of the faith and a man the Bible says was perfect, was openly opposed such actions, preventing the stoning of an adulterous woman, and teaching to do unto others as you'd have them to unto you, which pretty much rules out slavery. The way I see it, discarding the barbaric ways of the Old Testament isn't a matter of "cherry picking", It's a matter of following the teachings of Jesus above those in the Old Testament, which Christ was supposed to have abolished through his death on the cross. There's nothing "modern" about it. 

Yes, ok, I'll give you that you probably can discard the whole of the Old Testament if you're following the preaching of Jesus. But that would mean you more or less would have to discard everything in it, no? Like how god created the world in 7 days, and the story about Adam and Eve... But that's not what's happening, since people still believe this is what happened. And then we have the homophobic right winged movement in the US that opposes abortion and gay marriages because it says so in the bible. What they are doing is disregarding the word of Jesus and is, in fact, cherry picking...

And then we have the fact that the New Testament have been heavily revised through out history, so what we have today is nothing like what Jesus was preaching... Cherry picking.

Ah, by "Old Testament" I was mostly referring to the the law of Moses. Too much of the NT would be rendered meaningless if you discarded the OT in it's entirety. That, I believe, is why Christians today still say that homosexuality, adultery, sex outside of marriage, lying, etc. are still wrong. The OT still has to be used as a guideline of sorts, but Christians toss out the parts that Jesus stood against. The story of the adulterous woman is a good example in this case, as he told her to "go and sin no more." He wasn't saying that adultery was okay, only that he would not condemn her for it. Although I do agree that it isn't "Christlike" to treat gays the way many Christians today do.

Now, I'm unfamiliar with any drastic changes made to the NT texts over the years, but, even if you're right, the commonly used King James Bible was written over 400 years ago, so my statement still stands: These teachings didn't just come around recently. Hence, not cherry picking.

Sort of OT: I don't know of any verses in the Bible that say that abortion is wrong. I am personally opposed to it, but more because of my own feelings on the matter than religion.

I have to admit that my knowledge of the Bible is all that great; I only know bits and pieces, so I can't make a full argument about everything in it. All I can do is look upon certain passages and say "heeey, wait a minute here! THAT doesn't seem very nice!" I don't quite know what Jesus said, so I don't fully understand what parts of the OT is rendered obsolete.

They keep finding parts of the Bible (don't know what they're called, evangelists? Those letters that constitute the NT from Peter and the likes) that DIDN'T make the cut into the book. And it wasn't until sometime around the 300's that Jesus officially was considered the son of god by the church. So there's been quite some cherry picking even before the Early Modern time period, in which the English Bible was written.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

dsgrue3 said:

Lol, you say you don't recall Genesis being incompatible with evolution and then get upset and storm off when I show you how it is? Right.

Did I get upset? No. Did I storm off? No.

I've seen how you reply to people in discussions and I don't want to deal with that.



NintendoPie said:
dsgrue3 said:

Lol, you say you don't recall Genesis being incompatible with evolution and then get upset and storm off when I show you how it is? Right.

Did I get upset? No. Did I storm off? No.

I've seen how you reply to people in discussions and I don't want to deal with that.

If you cannot handle criticism for being wrong, you will struggle with life each and every day. Being wrong is part of the learning process my friend. I'm a snarky individual, so I understand if you don't wish to converse. Some can't handle it.



dsgrue3 said:

If you cannot handle criticism for being wrong, you will struggle with life each and every day. Being wrong is part of the learning process my friend. I'm a snarky individual, so I understand if you don't wish to converse. Some can't handle it.

It's not a question of resilience, it's a question of convenience.



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sales2099 said:
Christianity is the worlds largest religion....so no it aint going away within our lifetimes.

But it sounds (unintentionally) that your talking about a reverse-crusades, where you said "That there will not be any churches left to attend, and nobody to share their faith with". Thats only gonna happen if we are forced to not practice our faith and churches are burnt to the ground.

Why is Christianity the only whipping boy among all world religions? seriously

I think it's because it's so close to home, and we're in the thick of it. As simple as that. Personally, since I've grown up in what at least used to be a protestant country I know a lot more about christianity than I do islam, which makes it much easier to debate. But I generally think that every criticism an atheist has against christendom, s/he has against islam as well.



I'm on Twitter @DanneSandin!

Furthermore, I think VGChartz should add a "Like"-button.

DanneSandin said:
Trunkin said:
DanneSandin said:
Trunkin said:
DanneSandin said:
Trunkin said:
DanneSandin said:
I don't think we'll see the extinction of Christianity very soon - if ever. They'll survive as some odd cult at the very least. But if we're looking at what Christianity has become, none is true Christians any more. I mean, how many people are stoning gays? Or selling their daughters as slaves? Not a whole lot of them. So I'd call todays Christians for... Post-modern Christians; they have adopted a much more modern way of looking at things, or THEY would be the ones getting stoned...

But I'm glad to live in a world where more and more people are becoming Atheists - in no way can that be a bad sign of things to come. I just wish we'd see more of this also happening in the Middle East...


You're joking, right?

If you're referring to the bolded part; no, I'm not. I wouldn't call Christians of today for "real, hardcore" Christians. They've cherry picked what they want to believe from the Bible - but that goes for almost ALL religion; they've chosen by large what they want to adhere to, and what to ignore. The Bible clearly states that you have the right to sell your daughter as a slave, and not even the most fundamental Creationist would do that (I hope).

Religion these days are all about cherry picking the good parts - as well as they should; there are some pretty horrible things in most religious texts.

I find it flabbergasting that you can say that "true" Christians would be all for stoning gays and "selling their daughters" when Christ, the founder of the faith and a man the Bible says was perfect, was openly opposed such actions, preventing the stoning of an adulterous woman, and teaching to do unto others as you'd have them to unto you, which pretty much rules out slavery. The way I see it, discarding the barbaric ways of the Old Testament isn't a matter of "cherry picking", It's a matter of following the teachings of Jesus above those in the Old Testament, which Christ was supposed to have abolished through his death on the cross. There's nothing "modern" about it. 

Yes, ok, I'll give you that you probably can discard the whole of the Old Testament if you're following the preaching of Jesus. But that would mean you more or less would have to discard everything in it, no? Like how god created the world in 7 days, and the story about Adam and Eve... But that's not what's happening, since people still believe this is what happened. And then we have the homophobic right winged movement in the US that opposes abortion and gay marriages because it says so in the bible. What they are doing is disregarding the word of Jesus and is, in fact, cherry picking...

And then we have the fact that the New Testament have been heavily revised through out history, so what we have today is nothing like what Jesus was preaching... Cherry picking.

Ah, by "Old Testament" I was mostly referring to the the law of Moses. Too much of the NT would be rendered meaningless if you discarded the OT in it's entirety. That, I believe, is why Christians today still say that homosexuality, adultery, sex outside of marriage, lying, etc. are still wrong. The OT still has to be used as a guideline of sorts, but Christians toss out the parts that Jesus stood against. The story of the adulterous woman is a good example in this case, as he told her to "go and sin no more." He wasn't saying that adultery was okay, only that he would not condemn her for it. Although I do agree that it isn't "Christlike" to treat gays the way many Christians today do.

Now, I'm unfamiliar with any drastic changes made to the NT texts over the years, but, even if you're right, the commonly used King James Bible was written over 400 years ago, so my statement still stands: These teachings didn't just come around recently. Hence, not cherry picking.

Sort of OT: I don't know of any verses in the Bible that say that abortion is wrong. I am personally opposed to it, but more because of my own feelings on the matter than religion.

I have to admit that my knowledge of the Bible is all that great; I only know bits and pieces, so I can't make a full argument about everything in it. All I can do is look upon certain passages and say "heeey, wait a minute here! THAT doesn't seem very nice!" I don't quite know what Jesus said, so I don't fully understand what parts of the OT is rendered obsolete.

They keep finding parts of the Bible (don't know what they're called, evangelists? Those letters that constitute the NT from Peter and the likes) that DIDN'T make the cut into the book. And it wasn't until sometime around the 300's that Jesus officially was considered the son of god by the church. So there's been quite some cherry picking even before the Early Modern time period, in which the English Bible was written.

I can't say my knowledge of the Bible is all that great either. I've only just recently started doing some research for myself.

There was apparently quite a debate over which writings would make it into the Bible back in the day. I have to agree that quite a bit of clipping was done when the Book was first compiled, which is why I find it extremely hard to accept that the Protestant bible, or even the 73 book Catholic Bible, can possibly contain everything that needs to be known. I don't have access to the earliest manuscripts, though, nor to I have access to someone who could make sense of them for me if I did. -_-

On the topic of Jesus being the son of God, interestingly enough, most modern translations of the Bible that I've read don't have him outright making the claim. He infered it, sure, but never outright said it. Now that I think about it, I don't recall any OT prophets saying that the Christ would be the son of God either. Also, the very meaning of the term is up for debate. 



@sales2099

Christianity is merely the predominant monotheistic religion in the West. Which is where the decline in established organized religion is most pronounced. Nations that are in the third world, part of emerging economies, or are under theocratic rule are obviously farther behind their Western counterparts. The predominant point of view being that higher standards of eduction, stronger economics, secular institutions, and the technological advances brought about Science. Are strengthening pluralism. Which actually undermines strict interpretation.

Basically the smarter people are, the more options they have, and the stronger the freedoms they are in actual possession of. The more likely they are to abandon organized religion in favor of generalist sentiments, or just plain outright disbelief. People seem to be increasingly less responsive to the idea of a interventionist god. Since it is increasingly becoming the case that science, technology, or secular thought can more adequately address their problems. When you get sick your first act isn't to pray for a healing. You take some medicine, see a doctor, or have a operation to repair the damage. In a very real sense people are placing more of their faith in Science which has a fairly solid track record. Then in a god which is fundamentally binary.

On topic I think people are fundamentally practical. Late in the nineteenth century, and early in the twentieth century. Organized Christianity took stands against anesthetics, and the evils of alcohol. In both cases those views have been pretty soundly crushed outside of a small number of denominations. You don't see a lot of preachers railing against people getting knocked out before they undergo surgery, and you don't see a lot of them calling people who drink heathens. Practicality eventually won out, because in a either or scenario religion loses out when it comes to people doing things people feel they have a right to do.

Personally I think Christianity is both being eroded and diluted, and it will not so much end as it will just crumble apart. I think the religion has fundamentally placed itself at odds with progress, and in a face off it will always lose, because progress brings tangible results. Every time the religion loses a battle in the court of public opinion it not only loses credibility, but it also damages its reputation. It is really a process of attrition rather then a process of reinvention. Pieces of the religion are getting ripped out, and that is allowing for doubt to slip right in.

I think in the end people who identify themselves as Christians probably will not have much conviction left, and will view the self identification in the same way we view birth signs. It will have just been something handed down to them. I also don't think the trend can reverse, because it isn't a vacuum type of situation. The voids being left in Christianity are being replaced by things like Science, Philosophy, and Newer types of thinking. So eventually in the end there will not be anything for people to go back to.



happydolphin said:
Raze said:

I don't follow the church either, I find church is everywhere and anywhere. I was always told God is everywhere, and always ready to listen, so I talk to Him whenever, wherever. I believe that humankind is too flawed to tell me what God wants, so I get direction directly from the source. We get so caught up in all the dogma, the rituals, obligations, etc. Is a person really strong in faith because they attend church every week and go through the motions , while checking the time until they can get out? Imagine having a friend come visit you, and the whole time, he's just killing time until he can leave. Not really a fun visit, is it?

When you can find faith by wanting to have faith, not because your parents tell you "that's the way it is", then there's reward in it. I've ong left the Catholic faith in practice, but fall in that category of "non-descript Christian".  God gave us free will to make our choices in life, and thus I never tell anyone to believe anything they don't feel inclined to. People need to come to their decisions on the matter on their own. Anyone who forces you too is just holding you back from that journey. After all, no one likes being told what to do. =)

I'll just say two things to this:
1) Proverbs 15:22 and 2) Psalm 133:1

If you wanna get from the source, you've been doing it wrong.

Apparently not, as I've been guided to great things, all without the influence or corruption of man, and have been delivered unto those who needed a helping hand or encouragement in dark times. God is my counsel, dare you say that He has guided me wrong?

This is why I like discussing faith matters with atheists better than those who feel they have authority to preach. At least Atheists ask some interesting questions. Prechers and their ilk only know how to condemn, and as per Christ, those who condemn are themselves condemned.



The Carnival of Shadows - Folk Punk from Asbury Park, New Jersey

http://www.thecarnivalofshadows.com 


Raze said:

Apparently not, as I've been guided to great things, all without the influence or corruption of man, and have been delivered unto those who needed a helping hand or encouragement in dark times. God is my counsel, dare you say that He has guided me wrong?

This is why I like discussing faith matters with atheists better than those who feel they have authority to preach. At least Atheists ask some interesting questions. Prechers and their ilk only know how to condemn, and as per Christ, those who comdemn are themselves condemned.

Lol, you just condemned me you hypocrite. (Yes, I can read between the lines)

Anyways, the point of what I was saying was that you said you go to the source, but after showing you those two verses you clearly don't.

I don't need to be christian to tell you the cold hard truth. Sorry you can't take it.

Edit: You want the actual truth about this and being preachy (Lol)? I don't even practice those two verses. But I don't pretend to have my religion in place, I know I have things to fix. You can say you're working on things, but don't pretend that being a lone wolf is the biblical path to take, because it's not.