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Forums - Politics Discussion - How to Destroy an Athiests in a argument! (Updated with poll)

 

Who won?

The Athiest 40 70.18%
 
The creationist 17 29.82%
 
Total:57
Mnementh said:
Allfreedom99 said:
Atheists and Theists will be battling each other for the rest of time. Many say, "through scientific study we will some day be able to discover whether there is an existence or lack of existence of a 'Creator God'. It will tell us who is correct and who is incorrect."

The problem with this, however is that Science cannot prove what is in the supernatural realm. Science can only study within the laws of the universe from which it uses as its boundaries. Science is used to determine what can be known through its uses of measurements, calculations, Physics, observation, laws of nature, ect. Science can only operate in laws of consistency. If the laws of the universe were ever changing then Science could not operate properly. Knowledge itself would be unreliable.

If a 'Creator God' does indeed exist then that being would most certainly have supernatural powers if He was able to create matter, the universe, laws of physics and nature, gravity, ect. If the 'Creator God' did not create the laws of the universe, matter, laws of physics and nature, ect. then that would mean those laws would have been set in place before His existence. In other words the 'Creator God' would have come into existence as a result of those laws in place. The laws of physics and the universe establish a set of guidelines and order. without them knowledge and reason cannot exist.

How can there be order or a set of laws and guidelines without a form of intelligent intervention to create those laws and guidelines? If there is no intelligent intervention to determine those laws then within the bounds of Science it defies logic. Matter exists today. we know that through observation. so then it is an unanswerable question to ask, "how did the environment and laws of physics (the foundation and makeup if you will) for matter to form exist without some kind of intelligent influence to establish those laws?" The ability to have heat, friction, the foundation of physics, the original makeup to develop more and more complex entities through time...how did those forms of order and laws of the universe ever become realities without intelligent intervention? One cannot simply answer those questions without simply saying that those products always existed for infinity of time and were never instituted. But to give that answer is to defy logic and reason, is it not?

Some atheists say, "well you cannot simply explain away our existence through an even further complex being that created everything." , because then logic would dictate that you would have an infinity amount of creators in order to have the existence of a complex being that created the universe. But it even further defies logic to say that we have the laws of the universe, the foundation and environment for physics, knowledge, matter, ect to exist without an intelligent influence to form those guidelines of order and laws.

Either the laws and makeup for the universe have existed for infinity of time without any intelligent influence to establish those laws (which defies reason and logic), or a supernatural omnipotent being who has existed for infinity time who cannot simply be fully comprehended or understood by our minds established those laws that made it possible for our universe to exist with complex entities. We know what we can observe. We can observe that we have a product, a universe, complex life forms, laws of nature. We see results of something. The results of something with the intelligence to establish their ability to exist. Through observation one can know the existence of an intelligent creator.

What? Why does it defy logic to say some basic physical laws existed all the time?

What are laws? They establish a certain process of order. How then can a law that dictates a process of order exist without the intelligence to establish it?




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Allfreedom99 said:
Mnementh said:
What? Why does it defy logic to say some basic physical laws existed all the time?

 

What are laws? They establish a certain process of order. How then can a law that dictates a process of order exist without the intelligence to establish it?

Why evidence is there that a process of order has to be established by something intelligent?  Your argument is circular:

1.) An intelligence created the process of order of the universe.
2.) The universe follows a process of order
3.) The universe was created by something intelligent

Why is it easier to believe that a magical invisible man has existed forever, but the nature of the cosmos, something observable and around you, has not



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Alara317 said:
DaRev said:
HesAPooka said:
Alara317 said:
HesAPooka said:

Are you that blinde? I'm clearly not debating you on religion. I'm debating you on someones right to beleive what they want, and to do so without having to be ridiculed for it or harassed by others. I made that pretty obvious from the begining. Stop making yourself look bad and just stop now.

You most certainly are allowed to believe what you want, but if what you believe is irrational, then you should be open to criticism.  Not insults or hatred, but fair, rational criticism.  if I believed a Rock gave me invulerability powers, and I was planning on running in traffic with it, wouldn't you want to stop and explain why that's stupid?  

And I didn't even bother reading your first response.  it was long and multiquoted.  I've learned the smartest thing to do when religion is discussed is to not bother reading anything more than a paragraph or two.  It's either a hate-rant or carefully selected nonsense, as per the OP video.  Either way you were wasting your time.  you shouldn't need to make your claim, it should just be a given.  

Right ;) 

And there you were going along thinking you were having a meaningful discussion,...turns out the dude didn't even read your first response lol. Classic. I'm sure he/she applies the same 'tatics' to their views on religion, i.e. by not reading anything but having a purported informed opinion. Classic lol

Quite the opposite.  I'm really quite an interested party when it comes to debating theism.  I've been researching it for 20 years now, and I've come to realize 2 things: 

1 - the chances of anyone giving me an argument that I haven't already considered and factored into my conclusion is practically zero (the last time anyone suggested an argument that I hadn't considered already was when I was 16 years old.  since then, I just keep seeing a lot of the same fauly arguments I've thoroughly debunked dozens of time in the past. 

2 - I would never, ever, ever find an intelligent debate point on a messageboard.  This is the internet, and I've gotten used to being exposed to the limitless depths of stupidity.  I once had someone legitimately try to argue that George bush was the best president of all time becuase he was bringing religion back into the white house.  I just don't expect to find any legitimately good points on a messageboard.  I used to debate on Volconvo, one of the biggest debate forums on the internet, and even then it was full with essay-length nonsense.  

I actually did read it, I just said I didn't becuase I wanted the discussion to end there, becuase I don't enjoy debating religion online.  I just came in to have a laugh.  

yeah whatever, a likely excuse.

So, remind me, or maybe you didn’t mention it, but how much time do you dedicate to studying religion and what sources have you used in coming to your present conclusions? In answer to this question, consider your current PROFESSION (if you have one or a hobby you’re good at) and how much time you dedicate to that profession or hobby – how does that amount of time compare to the time you dedicate to studying religion?





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DaRev said:

yeah whatever, a likely excuse.

So, remind me, or maybe you didn’t mention it, but how much time do you dedicate to studying religion and what sources have you used in coming to your present conclusions? In answer to this question, consider your current PROFESSION (if you have one or a hobby you’re good at) and how much time you dedicate to that profession or hobby – how does that amount of time compare to the time you dedicate to studying religion?



What in the world does that have to do with anything.  I've been studying religion off and on for most of my life.  Mostly just when it comes up in debates, but there was a lengthy time when I was in school where we'd debate religion pretty much every day between law class and debate club.  I was in a very religious community and Felt that it was my place to basically tell them to knock it off and let me be atheist, and they wouldn't leave me be.  so through the later years of public school and all of high school I was outed as a minority for not believing in God and my parents nearly disowned me.  I would be a fool to not take the time to explain religion. 

Plus my ex was a brilliant person, and she was huuuge into religion, she pushed me farther into the depths of madness for not believing in God for over a year before we finally broke it off.  I spent like 7 years of my life in a constant debate with religious types on all sides.  I guarantee there's nothing you can possibly bring up at this point that I haven't already heard, considered, and factored into my argument.  I haven't done much in the way of research over the last 4-5 years or so, but I haven't needed to since nobody's presented me with new information. 



Mendicate Bias said:

Oh I definitely agree with you, the big health insurance companies love this new bill. I'm arguing from the standpoint of one very specific thing that was without a doubt broken before the reform. That being denial of coverage for individuals with pre-existing conditions. Also an extension of that, kicking people off insurance when their bills exceeded a certain limit. That was completely unjust, especially when many people are born with conditions they have no control over. But the bill as a whole is a major mess.

What is your area of research? I'm in biotech myself.

The problem with that is that the name of the game in insurance is assessing risk, and while I feel badly for anyone who has a pre existing condition that is no fault of his own, I don't think turning the entire concept of health insurance on its head was wise, nor is it a real solution even though it is politically popular. No one would seriously advocate homeowner's insurance to offer coverage for a house that is already on fire because it's unfair to discriminate against someone with a pre existing condition, but because of the emotional reaction that a medical condition evokes, we're willing to pretend that it's viable to do just that with people. Now that health insurance is just a giant, fucked up, for-profit welfare scheme, it's hard for me to see how fewer people are going to end up suffering as a result of this. Then again, I don't think the third party payer system works anyway, so maybe it's just a matter of going to hell sooner rather than later.

I work in pharmacology, mostly behavioral. I'm just a lowly lab tech, though.



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Allfreedom99 said:

What are laws? They establish a certain process of order. How then can a law that dictates a process of order exist without the intelligence to establish it?


Why should someone establish a rule? Why isn't it part of the universe. Or more to the point: the existance of physical laws lead to the universe we have today. You basically say, that sometimes the laws of the physical world didn't exist. That is needed, so that someone can establish them. It is illogical to assume, that at some point no physical laws existed. Why make such an assumption?



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kanageddaamen said:
JoeTheBro said:
kanageddaamen said:
JoeTheBro said:
I'm fine with most atheists even if it's a super heated debate.

What pisses me off is when an atheist thinks science=atheism. Um hello, I'm a science guy yet I'm not an atheist. Also I find pastafarianism annoying. It's funny to use it as a joke but using it as an argument against religion just shows how little you know. The video I can laugh at because there are tons of blind and ignorant Jesus freaks just asking for trouble when talking to atheists.


If you applied the scientific method, you would have abandoned the hypothesis "a judeo-christian god exists" a long time ago


Oh thank you for perfectly fitting in to the science=atheism category.


My point is, if you were a "science guy" would have applied your adherence to the scientific method to the belief in god, and drawn the conclusion that it is a false hypothesis.

Naturally science ISN'T atheism (science is the persuit of truth via observation and analysis, atheism is the lack of a belief in a higher power) but 1.) Science dictates claiming nothing to be true without repeatable evidence that it is so (which nullifies any and all "beliefs."  If you are a "science guy" you either have evidence that something is true, or you do not, there is no room for "belief") and 2.) Any intellectually honest, scientific analysis of the question of a supreme being will yield an atheistic result


This is why science=atheism people piss me off. Your argument is on par with a Christian shaking his head saying "nope I'm right, you're wrong, it's in the bible." If you want to debate this then you should present your "scientific analysis of the question" instead of saying it's just science 101. By being vague this argument pushes the theist, in this case me, into arguing against science as a whole which we both know is a dead end.

So please get off your high horse and present your findings instead of doing whatever this is. Oh and don't try and argue that I'm not a science guy. I know this is the internet full of people making stuff up but I'm not one of them. My 2011 Nobel prize in telling the truth proves that. (thought ending on humor would lighten the mood)



JoeTheBro said:
kanageddaamen said:
JoeTheBro said:
kanageddaamen said:
JoeTheBro said:
I'm fine with most atheists even if it's a super heated debate.

What pisses me off is when an atheist thinks science=atheism. Um hello, I'm a science guy yet I'm not an atheist. Also I find pastafarianism annoying. It's funny to use it as a joke but using it as an argument against religion just shows how little you know. The video I can laugh at because there are tons of blind and ignorant Jesus freaks just asking for trouble when talking to atheists.


If you applied the scientific method, you would have abandoned the hypothesis "a judeo-christian god exists" a long time ago


Oh thank you for perfectly fitting in to the science=atheism category.


My point is, if you were a "science guy" would have applied your adherence to the scientific method to the belief in god, and drawn the conclusion that it is a false hypothesis.

Naturally science ISN'T atheism (science is the persuit of truth via observation and analysis, atheism is the lack of a belief in a higher power) but 1.) Science dictates claiming nothing to be true without repeatable evidence that it is so (which nullifies any and all "beliefs."  If you are a "science guy" you either have evidence that something is true, or you do not, there is no room for "belief") and 2.) Any intellectually honest, scientific analysis of the question of a supreme being will yield an atheistic result


This is why science=atheism people piss me off. Your argument is on par with a Christian shaking his head saying "nope I'm right, you're wrong, it's in the bible." If you want to debate this then you should present your "scientific analysis of the question" instead of saying it's just science 101. By being vague this argument pushes the theist, in this case me, into arguing against science as a whole which we both know is a dead end.

So please get off your high horse and present your findings instead of doing whatever this is. Oh and don't try and argue that I'm not a science guy. I know this is the internet full of people making stuff up but I'm not one of them. My 2011 Nobel prize in telling the truth proves that. (thought ending on humor would lighten the mood)


Religion can be summed up by the Dunning-Kruger effect, nothing more need be said.



We don't need no god!



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kanageddaamen said:
Allfreedom99 said:
Mnementh said:
What? Why does it defy logic to say some basic physical laws existed all the time?

 

What are laws? They establish a certain process of order. How then can a law that dictates a process of order exist without the intelligence to establish it?

Why evidence is there that a process of order has to be established by something intelligent?  Your argument is circular:

1.) An intelligence created the process of order of the universe.
2.) The universe follows a process of order
3.) The universe was created by something intelligent

Why is it easier to believe that a magical invisible man has existed forever, but the nature of the cosmos, something observable and around you, has not

It is not some "invisible man" that I would liken the Creator to as if he is some old aged guy with a beard having a good time watching what happens on earth while sitting back eating popcorn. I liken God to a omnipotent being who is also Omnipresent.

Science uses the bases of observation. I would ask the same question of you. Why when you look around you seeing us as complex living organisms, our solar system, air, gravity, the vast deep universe with laws that all work together establishing order do you not see it as an amazing creation by a vastly intelligent Omniscient creator? We are here alive as a product of something.

Products are a result of an intelligent influence. When we look at solar systems, galaxies, our bodies we see order, purpose, and enginuity. How, then can you look at it and say that its all just the reslut of a random happens chance that the coding for everythign we see occuring now was all directly written in the very beginnings of the universe without any intelligent influence whatsover?

That is why in the realm of science it defies logic.