By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Politics Discussion - Catalonian Independence?

Mr Khan on 26 November 2012
Nem said:
Mr Khan said:

To my knowledge, they succeeded between 1560 and 1640, administering Portugal and their holdings as part of "The Spains," and losing it in the latter days of the 30 years war.

The oldest country in Europe by far is France, dating from 843 AD. Spain is second (1479), Portugal third (1640), Switzerland fourth (1648) and the United Kingdom fifth (1707)

Napoleon helped mess with a bit of it, breaking the independence streaks of Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, and the Netherlands.

I dont know about France but Portugal become a Kingdom officially recognised by the church on 1179. By then Spain was about 3 or 4 different kingdoms. The date you have was when Portugal became independant from Spain after Spain took over with a royal marriage (most probably).

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independ%C3%AAncia_de_Portugal

"Em 1179 o papa Alexandre III, através da Bula Manifestis Probatum, confirma e reconhece a Portugal como país independente e soberano protegido pela Igreja Católica."

That quote means the Pope Alexander the 3rd confirmed and recognised Portugal as an independant and soberane country under protection of the catholic church in 1179.

 

This obviously makes me doubt your other dates. And in case you pretend to question the validity of the source, i know that is correct as i am portuguese and learned these things in school. I cant exactly link a history book.

I count it as the royal marriage meaning that Portugal ceased to exist in 1560, so the first Portuguese Kingdom ran from 1179 to 1560, then resumed being a country in 1640. Just like how the Netherlands stopped being a country when Napoleonic France took it over sometime before 1800, then resumed being a country in 1815.

It's all about sovereignty. Portugal lost it, like other European countries did.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Around the Network
zuvuyeay on 26 November 2012

i saw a news documentary over here not so long ago that was about spain and that the bad things that happened in the franco times still bubble under the surface and with money/economy getting worse it could start to come out again,any truth to this,i can't remember exactly which areas these were



                                                                                                                                        Above & Beyond

   

Nem on 26 November 2012
Mr Khan said:
Nem said:
Mr Khan said:
 

To my knowledge, they succeeded between 1560 and 1640, administering Portugal and their holdings as part of "The Spains," and losing it in the latter days of the 30 years war.

The oldest country in Europe by far is France, dating from 843 AD. Spain is second (1479), Portugal third (1640), Switzerland fourth (1648) and the United Kingdom fifth (1707)

Napoleon helped mess with a bit of it, breaking the independence streaks of Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, and the Netherlands.

I dont know about France but Portugal become a Kingdom officially recognised by the church on 1179. By then Spain was about 3 or 4 different kingdoms. The date you have was when Portugal became independant from Spain after Spain took over with a royal marriage (most probably).

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independ%C3%AAncia_de_Portugal

"Em 1179 o papa Alexandre III, através da Bula Manifestis Probatum, confirma e reconhece a Portugal como país independente e soberano protegido pela Igreja Católica."

That quote means the Pope Alexander the 3rd confirmed and recognised Portugal as an independant and soberane country under protection of the catholic church in 1179.

 

This obviously makes me doubt your other dates. And in case you pretend to question the validity of the source, i know that is correct as i am portuguese and learned these things in school. I cant exactly link a history book.

I count it as the royal marriage meaning that Portugal ceased to exist in 1560, so the first Portuguese Kingdom ran from 1179 to 1560, then resumed being a country in 1640. Just like how the Netherlands stopped being a country when Napoleonic France took it over sometime before 1800, then resumed being a country in 1815.

It's all about sovereignty. Portugal lost it, like other European countries did.


If that was the case, France ceased to exist from 1789 when the monarchy was overthrown and 1792 when a republic was founded.

I am looking into the status of Portugal under spanish occupation. Will get back to you.



Mr Khan on 26 November 2012
Nem said:
Mr Khan said:
Nem said:
Mr Khan said:
 

To my knowledge, they succeeded between 1560 and 1640, administering Portugal and their holdings as part of "The Spains," and losing it in the latter days of the 30 years war.

The oldest country in Europe by far is France, dating from 843 AD. Spain is second (1479), Portugal third (1640), Switzerland fourth (1648) and the United Kingdom fifth (1707)

Napoleon helped mess with a bit of it, breaking the independence streaks of Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, and the Netherlands.

I dont know about France but Portugal become a Kingdom officially recognised by the church on 1179. By then Spain was about 3 or 4 different kingdoms. The date you have was when Portugal became independant from Spain after Spain took over with a royal marriage (most probably).

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independ%C3%AAncia_de_Portugal

"Em 1179 o papa Alexandre III, através da Bula Manifestis Probatum, confirma e reconhece a Portugal como país independente e soberano protegido pela Igreja Católica."

That quote means the Pope Alexander the 3rd confirmed and recognised Portugal as an independant and soberane country under protection of the catholic church in 1179.

 

This obviously makes me doubt your other dates. And in case you pretend to question the validity of the source, i know that is correct as i am portuguese and learned these things in school. I cant exactly link a history book.

I count it as the royal marriage meaning that Portugal ceased to exist in 1560, so the first Portuguese Kingdom ran from 1179 to 1560, then resumed being a country in 1640. Just like how the Netherlands stopped being a country when Napoleonic France took it over sometime before 1800, then resumed being a country in 1815.

It's all about sovereignty. Portugal lost it, like other European countries did.


If that was the case, France ceased to exist from 1789 when the monarchy was overthrown and 1792 when a republic was founded.

I am looking into the status of Portugal under spanish occupation. Will get back to you.

Change in government isn't loss of sovereignty. Otherwise Portugal itself would only date from 1975 and the end of the Fascists.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Kynes on 26 November 2012
Nem said:
Mr Khan said:
...

I count it as the royal marriage meaning that Portugal ceased to exist in 1560, so the first Portuguese Kingdom ran from 1179 to 1560, then resumed being a country in 1640. Just like how the Netherlands stopped being a country when Napoleonic France took it over sometime before 1800, then resumed being a country in 1815.

It's all about sovereignty. Portugal lost it, like other European countries did.


If that was the case, France ceased to exist from 1789 when the monarchy was overthrown and 1792 when a republic was founded.

I am looking into the status of Portugal under spanish occupation. Will get back to you.


Come on, so now a marriage is called an occupation? Now I see why you don't understand Spain as a country, you have some type of inferiority complex.



Around the Network
Nem on 26 November 2012
Mr Khan said:
Nem said:
Mr Khan said:
Nem said:
Mr Khan said:
 

To my knowledge, they succeeded between 1560 and 1640, administering Portugal and their holdings as part of "The Spains," and losing it in the latter days of the 30 years war.

The oldest country in Europe by far is France, dating from 843 AD. Spain is second (1479), Portugal third (1640), Switzerland fourth (1648) and the United Kingdom fifth (1707)

Napoleon helped mess with a bit of it, breaking the independence streaks of Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, and the Netherlands.

I dont know about France but Portugal become a Kingdom officially recognised by the church on 1179. By then Spain was about 3 or 4 different kingdoms. The date you have was when Portugal became independant from Spain after Spain took over with a royal marriage (most probably).

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independ%C3%AAncia_de_Portugal

"Em 1179 o papa Alexandre III, através da Bula Manifestis Probatum, confirma e reconhece a Portugal como país independente e soberano protegido pela Igreja Católica."

That quote means the Pope Alexander the 3rd confirmed and recognised Portugal as an independant and soberane country under protection of the catholic church in 1179.

 

This obviously makes me doubt your other dates. And in case you pretend to question the validity of the source, i know that is correct as i am portuguese and learned these things in school. I cant exactly link a history book.

I count it as the royal marriage meaning that Portugal ceased to exist in 1560, so the first Portuguese Kingdom ran from 1179 to 1560, then resumed being a country in 1640. Just like how the Netherlands stopped being a country when Napoleonic France took it over sometime before 1800, then resumed being a country in 1815.

It's all about sovereignty. Portugal lost it, like other European countries did.


If that was the case, France ceased to exist from 1789 when the monarchy was overthrown and 1792 when a republic was founded.

I am looking into the status of Portugal under spanish occupation. Will get back to you.

Change in government isn't loss of sovereignty. Otherwise Portugal itself would only date from 1975 and the end of the Fascists.

Ok i looked it up.


Here is the thing: Portugal is the oldest state-nation of europe (1249) and is recognised as such officially.

That requires the definition of state-nation wich means stabilization of borders with ethnic-cultural coesion. Obviously it never stopped beeing recognised as its own nation. I remember that Portugal had special status in the spanish empire of the time because of the discoveries and trade routes. The queen was portuguese afterall. I dont have a source for those though, im just trying to jog my memory with logic.

France might have officially started first but didnt stabilize into its modern shape until much later.

Source here btw, but again its in portuguese so you probably cant read it:

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estado-na%C3%A7%C3%A3o



zuvuyeay on 26 November 2012

also i don't consider the UK a country,i don't support any sport for the UK,i support England,soon we will be back on our own again



                                                                                                                                        Above & Beyond

   

Player1x3 on 26 November 2012

As a guy from Serbia, I fully support and recognize Spanish soverginity over all its teritories.

Im getting really sick of all separatist assholes all over the world...



justinian on 26 November 2012
mai said:
justinian said:
It always happens. In tough economic times people always want to protect "their own".

In a few years I expect the same in the US with the red and blue states, although religion will also play a major part in this.

The major difference between the US and Europe situation is the former is printing money how much they want, endlessly refunding debt and lowering rate, and they get away with that, while Europe is imposing various austerity programs on people and trying to dodge debt problems of it's members forcing aid programs on them. Why is that? Probably because US could afford that, while Europe is petty pygmy from political standpoint = there's no country behind the euro.

So I could agree about Europe's future more or less, but I'm not convinced about red and blue states (just don't take recent secession petitions seriously as well as entire American electorate).

UPD: On a side note, must admit I love the song :D

 

I agree with what you said. I am not saying it is definitely going to happen, I just think it is more likely than many people think.

As you said money will be a part of it I also think religion has a huge part to play.

Religion is a powerful tool. Nothing can divide and at the same time unify people like religion.

Many bible-belt states see mainstream America as leading them all towards the coming wrath of God. History shows hard economic times  make the impossible possible. I listened to a southern preacher motivating his congretion on TV earlier this year - and I hate to say it, but it reminded of an isolated Hitler promoting national socialism in 1930s Munich to a handful of listeners.

These things all start small but have the potential to snowball... or fizz out.

It seems the "smaller" the world gets the more it seems to want to fragment. Maybe it's just the way things work.



Scisca on 26 November 2012
Mr Khan said:
Nem said:
Mr Khan said:
 

To my knowledge, they succeeded between 1560 and 1640, administering Portugal and their holdings as part of "The Spains," and losing it in the latter days of the 30 years war.

The oldest country in Europe by far is France, dating from 843 AD. Spain is second (1479), Portugal third (1640), Switzerland fourth (1648) and the United Kingdom fifth (1707)

Napoleon helped mess with a bit of it, breaking the independence streaks of Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, and the Netherlands.

I dont know about France but Portugal become a Kingdom officially recognised by the church on 1179. By then Spain was about 3 or 4 different kingdoms. The date you have was when Portugal became independant from Spain after Spain took over with a royal marriage (most probably).

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independ%C3%AAncia_de_Portugal

"Em 1179 o papa Alexandre III, através da Bula Manifestis Probatum, confirma e reconhece a Portugal como país independente e soberano protegido pela Igreja Católica."

That quote means the Pope Alexander the 3rd confirmed and recognised Portugal as an independant and soberane country under protection of the catholic church in 1179.

 

This obviously makes me doubt your other dates. And in case you pretend to question the validity of the source, i know that is correct as i am portuguese and learned these things in school. I cant exactly link a history book.

I count it as the royal marriage meaning that Portugal ceased to exist in 1560, so the first Portuguese Kingdom ran from 1179 to 1560, then resumed being a country in 1640. Just like how the Netherlands stopped being a country when Napoleonic France took it over sometime before 1800, then resumed being a country in 1815.

It's all about sovereignty. Portugal lost it, like other European countries did.

France lost it in 1940 as well... If you say Napoleon stopped your timer for some countries, you should count Hitler in as well.

 

On topic: I hope they wait a bit with this whole independence stuff. And I wonder how they are going to distribute citisenship. My girlfriend moves to Barcelona next summer, I hope to join her some time later and it would be cool to get a nationality for being residents over there, haha. After all, Los Polacos have to support each other! And I've even started learning Catalan... So guys, just wait for me to move there and you can hit it!



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.