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Forums - Politics Discussion - Catalonian Independence?

the2real4mafol on 26 November 2012
mai said:
the2real4mafol said:

Catalonia polls favour separatist parties
 
The vote gives forces favouring Catalan statehood a commanding majority overall in the 135-seat Catalan parliament.

The Catalans accuse Madrid of raising far more in taxes from the region than it returns, and estimates the gap, or fiscal deficit, at 16 billion euros ($21 billion) a year -- a figure Madrid disputes.

The region of 7.5 million people accounts for more than one-fifth of Spain's economic output and a quarter of its exports, and boasts one of the world's best football teams, Barcelona FC.

But Catalonia also has a 44-billion-euro debt, equal to one-fifth of its output, and was forced to turn to Madrid this year for more than five billion euros to help make the payments

And what problem would that solve for Catalonia exactly? Getting rid of Spanish fiscal problems and trying to survive on their own? Not gonna help, unless they want out of eurozone.

Maybe they think it will write off the region's debt. As for the EU itself, polls have shown Catalans want independence from Spain now but want to continue to use the Euro, as they see it as a beneficial to their economy. If independence happens, it will be difficult for them regardless



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the2real4mafol on 26 November 2012
JEMC said:
haxxiy said:
mai said:

And what problem would that solve for Catalonia exactly? Getting rid of Spanish fiscal problems and trying to survive on their own? Not gonna help, unless they want out of eurozone.


They probably wouldn't even be part of the EU since that would require Spain and France voting for it.

That's the biggest problem, and the biggest discussion.

Technically, Catalonia is in Europe because it's part of one of a country that is member of Europe. Would separate from Spain make it go out of Europe? And if the answer is yes, would that mean that also Spain goes out of Europe given that it won't be the same country (both geographically and economically) than it was?

Anyway, neither France or Germany would like it to happen because that would mean a weak Spain, so a weak Euro, and they can't let that happen because it would also hurt them.

I find it funny that it seems to be easy to join the EU, but as soon as you try to leave, you are stopped by the top members (Germany, France mainly) straight away



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

JEMC on 26 November 2012
the2real4mafol said:
JEMC said:
haxxiy said:
mai said:

And what problem would that solve for Catalonia exactly? Getting rid of Spanish fiscal problems and trying to survive on their own? Not gonna help, unless they want out of eurozone.


They probably wouldn't even be part of the EU since that would require Spain and France voting for it.

That's the biggest problem, and the biggest discussion.

Technically, Catalonia is in Europe because it's part of one of a country that is member of Europe. Would separate from Spain make it go out of Europe? And if the answer is yes, would that mean that also Spain goes out of Europe given that it won't be the same country (both geographically and economically) than it was?

Anyway, neither France or Germany would like it to happen because that would mean a weak Spain, so a weak Euro, and they can't let that happen because it would also hurt them.

I find it funny that it seems to be easy to join the EU, but as soon as you try to leave, you are stopped by the top members (Germany, France mainly) straight away

It's not that Germany doesn't want an independant Catalonia, it is that they don't want a weak Spain, and that's what would happen if the secession happens.



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

jonager on 26 November 2012

wow no tenia idea de que el idoma vasco fuera tan distinto del español.



the2real4mafol on 26 November 2012
JEMC said:
the2real4mafol said:
JEMC said:
haxxiy said:
mai said:

And what problem would that solve for Catalonia exactly? Getting rid of Spanish fiscal problems and trying to survive on their own? Not gonna help, unless they want out of eurozone.


They probably wouldn't even be part of the EU since that would require Spain and France voting for it.

That's the biggest problem, and the biggest discussion.

Technically, Catalonia is in Europe because it's part of one of a country that is member of Europe. Would separate from Spain make it go out of Europe? And if the answer is yes, would that mean that also Spain goes out of Europe given that it won't be the same country (both geographically and economically) than it was?

Anyway, neither France or Germany would like it to happen because that would mean a weak Spain, so a weak Euro, and they can't let that happen because it would also hurt them.

I find it funny that it seems to be easy to join the EU, but as soon as you try to leave, you are stopped by the top members (Germany, France mainly) straight away

It's not that Germany doesn't want an independant Catalonia, it is that they don't want a weak Spain, and that's what would happen if the secession happens.

Surely that defeats the point of a union then, as it seems Germany dictates on these things, when it should be up to the actual country or the actual people. If the Catalans want independence, other countries should just let them do it. It should be the same, if a country wants to leave the Eurozone or EU as well. The only way a country like Greece or Spain can fix it's economies is to do itself, being dictated to by Germany isn't solving anything, especially as they are tied by the same currency as well. It's just getting worse and worse, and you can see the anger in people when they riot everyday and start to support fascist parties like golden dawn. 



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

Around the Network
dorron on 26 November 2012
Troll_Whisperer said:
No one cares about the Basque anymore :(

We've always been independentists!

Anyway, it's not gonna happen, Spain is a fucked up state that will nevet allow a democratic process of self-determination of a distinct nation. I hope the Catalans get to decide what they want to be though, as it should be.


Totally agreed. You speak true words, my friend.

Hope Catalunya gets somehow to decide what they want to be, and hope we, Basque Country, follow their path.

Edit: You can easily tell which users are spaniards in this thread and which ones are Basque. For those wanting to learn a bit about Basque History, some wise words from an interview to Iñaki Perurena where a clearly spaniard interviewer tries to put to shame the Basques and Iñaki puts him to shame instead out of his pure ignorance. 

Perurena Lehendakari !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JZEWmg7xTOk



JEMC on 26 November 2012
the2real4mafol said:
JEMC said:

It's not that Germany doesn't want an independant Catalonia, it is that they don't want a weak Spain, and that's what would happen if the secession happens.

Surely that defeats the point of a union then, as it seems Germany dictates on these things, when it should be up to the actual country or the actual people. If the Catalans want independence, other countries should just let them do it. It should be the same, if a country wants to leave the Eurozone or EU as well. The only way a country like Greece or Spain can fix it's economies is to do itself, being dictated to by Germany isn't solving anything, especially as they are tied by the same currency as well. It's just getting worse and worse, and you can see the anger in people when they riot everyday and start to support fascist parties like golden dawn.

That's what happens when money is involved.

And yes, the actual governments of Germany seem to forget that it is the "European Union", not the "bunch of countries that need to act like us, Germany".

They are forgetting that what works for one country doesn't necessarily have to work for another one.



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

the2real4mafol on 26 November 2012
JEMC said:
the2real4mafol said:
JEMC said:

It's not that Germany doesn't want an independant Catalonia, it is that they don't want a weak Spain, and that's what would happen if the secession happens.

Surely that defeats the point of a union then, as it seems Germany dictates on these things, when it should be up to the actual country or the actual people. If the Catalans want independence, other countries should just let them do it. It should be the same, if a country wants to leave the Eurozone or EU as well. The only way a country like Greece or Spain can fix it's economies is to do itself, being dictated to by Germany isn't solving anything, especially as they are tied by the same currency as well. It's just getting worse and worse, and you can see the anger in people when they riot everyday and start to support fascist parties like golden dawn.

That's what happens when money is involved.

And yes, the actual governments of Germany seem to forget that it is the "European Union", not the "bunch of countries that need to act like us, Germany".

They are forgetting that what works for one country doesn't necessarily have to work for another one.

That's the truth and that's probably why the EU doesn't work too well, as the members are still countries. Maybe it would of been easier if it was the United States of Europe, although i don't want that personally. But the EU to me, just seems like a experiment thats gone wrong.



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

JEMC on 26 November 2012
the2real4mafol said:
JEMC said:
the2real4mafol said:
JEMC said:

It's not that Germany doesn't want an independant Catalonia, it is that they don't want a weak Spain, and that's what would happen if the secession happens.

Surely that defeats the point of a union then, as it seems Germany dictates on these things, when it should be up to the actual country or the actual people. If the Catalans want independence, other countries should just let them do it. It should be the same, if a country wants to leave the Eurozone or EU as well. The only way a country like Greece or Spain can fix it's economies is to do itself, being dictated to by Germany isn't solving anything, especially as they are tied by the same currency as well. It's just getting worse and worse, and you can see the anger in people when they riot everyday and start to support fascist parties like golden dawn.

That's what happens when money is involved.

And yes, the actual governments of Germany seem to forget that it is the "European Union", not the "bunch of countries that need to act like us, Germany".

They are forgetting that what works for one country doesn't necessarily have to work for another one.

That's the truth and that's probably why the EU doesn't work too well, as the members are still countries. Maybe it would of been easier if it was the United States of Europe, although i don't want that personally. But the EU to me, just seems like a experiment thats gone wrong.

For me the problem is the way polititians were before and how they are now. The ones that started the EU did it with the thought that "what's good for Europe is good for us", the polititians today think about their countries first and Europe last.

That's not a bad thing by itself, but when what's good for your country turns to be bad for the rest of Europe and you do it anyway, that's when things go awry. And unfortunately that's what Germany did with Greece. And being arrogant doesn't help either.



Please excuse my bad English.

Currently gaming on a PC with an i5-4670k@stock (for now), 16Gb RAM 1600 MHz and a GTX 1070

Steam / Live / NNID : jonxiquet    Add me if you want, but I'm a single player gamer.

Nem on 26 November 2012
Mr Khan said:
Nem said:
Kynes said:
Nem said:
Spain as a country never made sense to me. Theres far too many different people with their own language that are amalgamed in that. It would be best for everyone if whoever doesnt want to stay leaves. That way we definitly wont have any more bombing about it.


It's funny that the oldest country in modern Europe never made sense to you. Switzerland has 4 official languages, UK has how many, four? how many official languages have China or India? And I tell you, so what? In a political era of integration in supranational entities, there are small minded people wanting to fracture and create problems where there weren't, so they can completely control the society.

What we are seeing here is a political party trying to hide their incompetence and the corruption behind the independence, so this way almost no one talks about their mismanagement of the government.


Wrong, Portugal is the oldest country in "modern" Europe (wich by they way, Spain/the kingdom of castella tried to conquer aswell but failed). It doesnt make sense cause its not a union, its a bunch of kingdoms that were conquered and subdued. They still have their own culture, so they should be allowed to express it the way they want. Were past the age of forceful conquer and palacian coupes. Its the era of freedom, and  (the)"people" should be free to decide what they want to do.

To my knowledge, they succeeded between 1560 and 1640, administering Portugal and their holdings as part of "The Spains," and losing it in the latter days of the 30 years war.

The oldest country in Europe by far is France, dating from 843 AD. Spain is second (1479), Portugal third (1640), Switzerland fourth (1648) and the United Kingdom fifth (1707)

Napoleon helped mess with a bit of it, breaking the independence streaks of Andorra, Liechtenstein, San Marino, and the Netherlands.

I dont know about France but Portugal become a Kingdom officially recognised by the church on 1179. By then Spain was about 3 or 4 different kingdoms. The date you have was when Portugal became independant from Spain after Spain took over with a royal marriage (most probably).

http://pt.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independ%C3%AAncia_de_Portugal

"Em 1179 o papa Alexandre III, através da Bula Manifestis Probatum, confirma e reconhece a Portugal como país independente e soberano protegido pela Igreja Católica."

That quote means the Pope Alexander the 3rd confirmed and recognised Portugal as an independant and soberane country under protection of the catholic church in 1179.

 

This obviously makes me doubt your other dates. And in case you pretend to question the validity of the source, i know that is correct as i am portuguese and learned these things in school. I cant exactly link a history book.

What i've always been told is that Portugal is the oldest european country. At least its complete borders.

After looking some more it seems that the kingdom founded in 843 was called western francia. I am guessing there were more wars and conquers before it stabilised its borders.