Thank you for the ad-hominen attacks. Yes I am a scholar, and I teach at a university. I am a scientist, but have studied history extensively as a diversion in undergraduate studies. The sources, there are many, but I suspect you are not interested in them. From a scientific point of view I would suggest "God the Failed Hypothesis" by Victor J. Stenger as a good starting point.
I was presenting opinions on the subject, you can choose to agree or disagree.
I did not personal attack you as I did not insult you I said what you were doing was insult ice and based on horrible reasoning.
Btw what? You're a scholar and scientist..... Come on. This baits the question what did you study on both and what degrees do you have?
Yes,I'm interested in the sources why would ask if I didn't want them? Give me them I will not prejudge the sources as long as there from actual scholar not scientist.
but if want someone who is one of the most famous scientist Dr Francis Collins and his book "The Language of God" and I can also name some book by famous physicians who go into great detail on topics.
"Excuse me sir, I see you have a weapon. Why don't you put it down and let's settle this like gentlemen" ~ max
Sorry, you're wrong. According to your bible there is ZERO chance of me being forgiven, if you don't believe me read the words of your christ:
Mark 3:22-30 states,
"And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, 'He has Beelzebub,' and, 'By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.' …'Assuredly, I [Jesus] say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation;' because they said, 'He has an unclean spirit'"
In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus says to the Pharisees,
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come"
Besides, don't talk to me about how I'm evil because I've sinned. First of all I don't believe there are sins, only bad karma. And having bad karma does not make you a bad person, because people change. Besides, I have very little bad karma.
I would say that, very likely, the sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit would be with knowing exactly what is of God, and attributing it evil willfully and knowing such. There has to be a degree of certainty and knowing. Would you say you fully know that which is of God for sure, and say it is of evil? If you aren't sure, then I am unsure where you could of done this.
I know what is of YHWH and the Judeo/Chirstian religion. I renounce it and look upon it with distain. I believe it is evil.
I don't think you really know what the Christian religion is. You may know some overlap between the two, but I fin d it suspect you would look at what is there with disdain and consider it evil. When you say "it is evil" you say it has nothing of value and none of it is good. But, the core of the Christian religion is summed up in love, and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and "Love go with your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself". There is also the virgin birth and death and resurrection of Jesus and what is in the Creed. One can say it is confusing, and doesn't make sense, but to look at it with disdain and evil? What is evil in what I wrote? And what is evil about this?
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widowsin their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
And what is disdainful and evil about this?
"Our Father in heaven,hallowed be your name.Your kingdom come,your will be done,on earth as it is in heaven.Give us this day our daily bread,and forgive us our debts,as we also have forgiven our debtors.And lead us not into temptation,but deliver us from evil."
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Sorry, you're wrong. According to your bible there is ZERO chance of me being forgiven, if you don't believe me read the words of your christ:
Mark 3:22-30 states,
"And the scribes who came down from Jerusalem said, 'He has Beelzebub,' and, 'By the ruler of the demons He casts out demons.' …'Assuredly, I [Jesus] say to you, all sins will be forgiven the sons of men, and whatever blasphemies they may utter; but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation;' because they said, 'He has an unclean spirit'"
In Matthew 12:31-32, Jesus says to the Pharisees,
"Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come"
Besides, don't talk to me about how I'm evil because I've sinned. First of all I don't believe there are sins, only bad karma. And having bad karma does not make you a bad person, because people change. Besides, I have very little bad karma.
I would say that, very likely, the sin of blaspheming against the Holy Spirit would be with knowing exactly what is of God, and attributing it evil willfully and knowing such. There has to be a degree of certainty and knowing. Would you say you fully know that which is of God for sure, and say it is of evil? If you aren't sure, then I am unsure where you could of done this.
I know what is of YHWH and the Judeo/Chirstian religion. I renounce it and look upon it with distain. I believe it is evil.
I don't think you really know what the Christian religion is. You may know some overlap between the two, but I fin d it suspect you would look at what is there with disdain and consider it evil. When you say "it is evil" you say it has nothing of value and none of it is good. But, the core of the Christian religion is summed up in love, and "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you", and "Love go with your heart, soul and mind and your neighbor as yourself". There is also the virgin birth and death and resurrection of Jesus and what is in the Creed. One can say it is confusing, and doesn't make sense, but to look at it with disdain and evil? What is evil in what I wrote? And what is evil about this?
13 If I speak in the tongues[a] of men or of angels, but do not have love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal.2 If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.3 If I give all I possess to the poor and give over my body to hardship that I may boast,[b] but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8 Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away.9 For we know in part and we prophesy in part,10 but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears.11 When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me.12 For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13 And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
27 Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widowsin their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.
And what is disdainful and evil about this?
"Our Father in heaven,hallowed be your name.Your kingdom come,your will be done,on earth as it is in heaven.Give us this day our daily bread,and forgive us our debts,as we also have forgiven our debtors.And lead us not into temptation,but deliver us from evil."
3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven. 4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they will be comforted. 5 Blessed are the meek, for they will inherit the earth. 6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they will be filled. 7 Blessed are the merciful, for they will be shown mercy. 8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they will see God. 9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called children of God. 10 Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 “Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me.12 Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.
Your ignorance of ALL THE BAD STUFF in the bible is appalling. You cannot point out some of the good stuff it says and act like it represents the whole message. Here's the thing, EVEN SATAN SAYS there's good things in the bible, and all the good stuff about love and peace is in accord with Satans will, but whatever was changed from his message has been altered..
The Al Jilwah The Black Book of Satan
Chapter I
I was, am now, and shall have no end. I exercise dominion over all creatures and over the affairs of all who are under the protection of my image. I am ever present to help all who trust in me and call upon me in time of need. There is no place in the universe that knows not my presence. I participate in all the affairs, which those who are without call evil because their nature is not such as they approve. Every age has its own manager, who directs affairs according to my decrees. This office is changeable from generation to generation, that the ruler of this world and his chiefs may discharge the duties of their respective offices everyone in his own turn. I allow everyone to follow the dictates of his own nature, but he that opposes me will regret it sorely.
No god has a right to interfere in my affairs, and I have made it an imperative rule that everyone shall refrain from worshipping all gods. All of the books of those who are without are altered by them; and they have declined from them, although they were written by the prophets and the apostles. That there are interpolations is seen in the fact that each sect endeavors to prove that the others are wrong and to destroy their books.
To me truth and falsehood are known. When temptation comes, I give my covenant to him that trusts in me. Moreover, I give council to the skilled directors, for I have appointed them for periods that are known to me. I remember necessary affairs and execute them in due time. I teach and guide those who follow my instruction. If anyone obey me and conform to my commandments, he shall have joy, delight, and comfort.
Chapter II
I requite the descendants of Adam, and reward them with various rewards that I alone know. Moreover, power and dominion over all that is on earth, both that which is above and that which is beneath, are in my hands. I do not allow friendly association with other people, nor do I deprive them that are my own and that obey me of anything that is good for them. I place my affairs in the hands of those whom I have tried and who are in accord with my desires. I appear in diverse manners to those who are faithful and under my command.
I give and take away; I enrich and impoverish; I cause both happiness and misery. I do all this in keeping with the characteristics of each epoch. And none has a right to interfere with my management of affairs. Those who oppose me I afflict with disease; but my own shall not die like the sons of Adam that are without. None shall live in this world longer than the time set by me; and if I so desire, I send a person a second or third time into this world or into some other by the transmigration of souls.
Chapter III
I lead to the straight path without a revealed book; I direct aright my beloved and chosen ones by unseen means. All my teachings are easily applicable to all times and all conditions. I punish in another world all who do contrary to my will.
Now the sons of Adam do not know the state of things that is to come. For this reason, they fall into many errors. The beasts of the earth, the birds of heaven and the fish of the sea are all under the control of my hands. All treasures and hidden things are known to me; and as I desire, I take them from one and bestow them upon another.
I reveal my wonders to those who seek them, and in due time my miracles to those who receive them from me. But those who are without are my adversaries, hence they oppose me. Nor do they know that such a course is against their own interests, for might, wealth and riches are in my hands, and I bestow them upon every worthy descendant of Adam. Thus the government of the worlds, the transition of generations, and the changes of their directors are determined by me from the beginning.
Chapter IV
I will not give my rights to other gods. I have allowed the creation of four substances, four times and four corners; because they are necessary things for creatures.
The books of Jews, Christians and Muslims, as of those who are without, accept in a sense, i.e., so far as they agree with and conform to my statutes. Whatsoever is contrary to these, they have altered; do not accept it. Three things are against me and I hate three things. But those who keep my secrets shall receive the fulfillment of my promises. Those who suffer for my sake I will surely reward in one of the worlds.
It is my desire that all my followers unite in a bond of unity, lest those who are without prevail against them. Now, then, all ye who have followed my commandments and my teachings, reject all the teachings and sayings of such as are without.
I have not taught these teachings, nor do they proceed from me. Do not mention my name nor my attributes, lest ye regret it; for ye do not know what those who are without may do.
Chapter V
O yea that have believed in me, honor my symbol and my image, for they remind you of me. Observe my laws and statutes. Obey my servants and listen to whatever they may dictate to you of the hidden things. Receive that, that is dictated, and do not carry it before those who are without, Jews, Christians, Muslims and others; for they know not the nature of my teaching. Do not give them your books, lest thy alter them without your knowledge. Learn by heart the greater part of them, lest they be altered.
This Is what I tried to post...
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ninetailschris said:
I did not personal attack you as I did not insult you I said what you were doing was insult ice and based on horrible reasoning.
Btw what? You're a scholar and scientist..... Come on. This baits the question what did you study on both and what degrees do you have?
Yes,I'm interested in the sources why would ask if I didn't want them? Give me them I will not prejudge the sources as long as there from actual scholar not scientist.
But nice run away to topic not dealing with what I asked but if you want bring up the guy I remember a famous debate he did with William lane Craig "http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=TM1Lt16sqiA&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DTM1Lt16sqiA" good debate.
but if want someone who is one of the most famous scientist Dr Francis Collins and his book "The Language of God" and I can also name some book by famous physicians who go into great detail on topics.
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Somehow you seem to take umbrage from my comments, which were a statement of opinion. This is why I find debating the topic pointless. As to your suggestion that an "actual scholar" is not a scientist, I think here you may be mistaken. Science is a scholarly proffession, one recieves a PhD in it (a doctorate of philosophy).
I chose not to cite historical, or archealogical sources because it is not my area of specialty. Natural sciences are and the work I cited does an exceptionally good job of examining religious claims in a scholarly evidence based scientific way. It is lucid, fully referenced and an excellent work. Of course any university natural science first year course will quickly expose you to the inherent conflict between a rational evidenced based world view and one predicated on a cultural traditon, even one as old and venerable as christianity. The two viewpoints are quite incompatible. Either the world is very old, was formed in a planetary acretion disk, and we are the product of billions of years of natural chemical, physical and evolutionary processes, or the earth is very young (inset religious timeline) and a supernatural creature did everything because (insert religious reason here). As I mentioned in point 1, the two sides of the argument are not equally supported by the evidence.
I did study philosophy (in my humanities requirements) and recognize ad-hominen attacks when I read them, as would anyone with basic training in logic. I choose not to share my particular credentials with a provocatur using a psuedonym on the internet. I find this a reasonable precaution. I wonder at this point, why I bothered to resoond, I should have listened to my own point "3. Debating god/religion/etc.. is the largest waste of time known to man. " Hoisted on my own petard, it seems.
Have a good day, and try not to take this all so seriously. This is an off topic debate in a games forum, not parliment. I am here killing time while waiting for my WiiU to arrive in the mail from Best Buy. Then it is zombie killing time... something I think there is much more chance of us agreeing on.
The argument in the OP is pretty weak. Not saying you arn't allowed to believe what you'd like, a persons religion is there own as everyone sees the world differently. But you make some very basic logical errors in your OP.
For instance, you somehow seem to equate being first with being correct. History has shown that if anything the latest information contains more truth than the theories that predate it.
You also suggest that two religions sharing ideas or themes makes the one that came later false which doesn't make any sense. If everytime someone came up with a theory they had to exclude the ideas of all other theories up to that point we would never move forward as a species. At the very least we would move very slowly.
I'm not going to get to much into the religious argument as people smarter and wiser than anyone on this website have been debating it for centuries to no avail. That, and I prefere to deal with logical reasoning.
You also seem to put things into this very black and white "good and evil" setting that doesn't really make sense. What's right and what's wrong, what's good and what's evil are all up to us. It's perspective and to declare any remark made about "good and evil" as truth is foolish.
Speaking of perspective. To give you an idea of where I'm coming from I consider myself an agnostic athiest. I believe that life is part of a chain of very specific (and lucky) chemical reactions, but I willingly accept that I will never know. I find this thought freeing. Without the structure of knowing we are given a blank canvas on which we can choose how we wish to look at life.
But, you claim to know. You don't know, you cannot know. You may even be right, but you do not know. There is an arrogance in your post and in your replies. You hold on to a religion that lies outside the norm so that you can look down on those that you consider "mainstream". Trying to be different doesn't make you better, it doesn't even really make you different. It makes you insecure.
