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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Black Ops 2 Launch Guide (Wii U 720p 60fps, 360/ps3 SUB-HD)

cunger on 07 November 2012
Squilliam said:
cunger said:
Squilliam said:
The Wii U is designed to run games at 60FPS given that is Nintendo's target and this game also targets 60FPS. The game itself is quite a good match to what the Wii U is capable of. In the end however this all doesn't matter given the fact that the next gen consoles from Sony and Microsoft are considerably more powerful again.


More powerfull but will have nowhere near the same type of advantage as they had over the original wii.  The main benifit will come from the ability to have brilliant graphics and stable performance in stereo 3d but he wiiu will hang in there in 2d performance for the majority of Nintendo's 6 year lifecylce.

The Wii U is more efficient than current generation consoles yes; however it isn't outright a performance beast. Having modern shaders and 32MB of embedded memory makes it a good fit for a game which targets 60FPS as these are simply extensions of the advantages the Xbox 360 GPU bought to the table which allowed it great performance next to the PS3. When the next generation of consoles from Sony and Microsoft are out noone will care about how the Wii U outperforms the Xbox 360 and PS3 for the same reason that the idea that the Wii was more powerful than the Xbox gained little traction, if you wanted the performance you're already looking elsewhere.

When the developers finally have to start tapping the GPU to make up for the lack of performance in the CPU which is absolutely tiny to run next generation titles, people will start calling them lazy. The performance isn't free, if you take it from rendering then you won't have nearly as pretty a picture as you'd expect.


The difference here is that Sony and Microsoft are not making a massive leap like last time. Wow in 2013 the ps4 will launch with a graphics card from 2011. And secondly the wii was not more powerfull than the original xbox. It was overall slightly less. The Wiiu is twice as powerfull overall than the original xbox.  It 100% will not be the same situation. Esspecially when you factor in that the Wiiu has a decent online service and dual anolog based controllers with all the cross platform buttons.



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Player1x3 on 07 November 2012
Viper1 said:
Player1x3 said:
Viper1 said:

See the words assets and optimisations in my post above?    Those 2 games you displayed, as well as most all other multiplatform titles back then, were given enhanced assets and optimisations.

 

Bully on PS2 was released in 2006.  Bully for X360 was released in 2008 with enhancements called Bully: Scholarship Edition.
Alone In The Dark was developed on the X360 and then ported down to the PS2.


We aren't talking about any other games but CoD BO 2.  No title on the Wii U is trying to be a graphical powerhouse.    Most are direct ports (no new assets).   Others are trying to show off the GamePad rather than graphics.   Most mutliplatform titles are being developed on PS3/X360 first and then external development houses are working on porting the games to Wii U.  You're not going to get a better looking game if the assets are the exact same.  To say nothing of the fact that everybody is trying to rush to make a launch deadline rather than having the 3-4 year development cycle that most big PS3/X360 games are getting.

So you think if a game was build and designed for Wii U from the beginning, the difference would be as big as when comparing PS360 games with PS2? Or that if a game was developed for U and then ported to PS360, the difference would be noticable to be called next gen advance? 

Not as big as the jump from PS2 to PS3.  That was just an insane jump that will not likely ever be repeated.

I believe we will see a similar jump from ps3 to ps4, but that's another topic

I do know that a game designed wholly from the ground up on Wii U with the intention of being highly graphical in presentation developed by a team with some years of experience on the system with sufficient budget and resources would defintely stand out graphically above what is seen on PS3/X360.  

Ok, so why is that none of the U exclusive games look nowhere near as good as some of the best 7th gen games? On Ps3, on all launch games you could see a clear difference between last gen and next gen? That's not the case with U. That was really my original point.

Quantifying how much more is where things get difficult.  Not just in simply not knowing the peak potential yet but in the mere fact that "how much better" tends to be subjective to each viewer.

I agree.

 

Go back and read that first post you quote me on.   Read if carefully.  Notice the context of what is being said.   Then compare that circumstance to the one I just described above.  It's such a vastly different situation.  Again, they can and eventually will look better.   How much better is unknowna nd may depend on whether developers want to put in the extra work to show it.   Nintendo stated recently that the reason that NSMBU is in 720p rather than 1080p is because it would cost a lot more to develop the game in 1080 yet it wouldn't change the amount of sales at all....so why bother?   If this remains the situation for most developers on Wii U, we may not see many games that really push the system until the PS4/X360 arrive.

I agree that they will eventually look better. Im just not sure the difference would be ''generation ahead'' big, like it should be.





Player1x3 on 07 November 2012
cunger said:
Squilliam said:
cunger said:
Squilliam said:
The Wii U is designed to run games at 60FPS given that is Nintendo's target and this game also targets 60FPS. The game itself is quite a good match to what the Wii U is capable of. In the end however this all doesn't matter given the fact that the next gen consoles from Sony and Microsoft are considerably more powerful again.


More powerfull but will have nowhere near the same type of advantage as they had over the original wii.  The main benifit will come from the ability to have brilliant graphics and stable performance in stereo 3d but he wiiu will hang in there in 2d performance for the majority of Nintendo's 6 year lifecylce.

The Wii U is more efficient than current generation consoles yes; however it isn't outright a performance beast. Having modern shaders and 32MB of embedded memory makes it a good fit for a game which targets 60FPS as these are simply extensions of the advantages the Xbox 360 GPU bought to the table which allowed it great performance next to the PS3. When the next generation of consoles from Sony and Microsoft are out noone will care about how the Wii U outperforms the Xbox 360 and PS3 for the same reason that the idea that the Wii was more powerful than the Xbox gained little traction, if you wanted the performance you're already looking elsewhere.

When the developers finally have to start tapping the GPU to make up for the lack of performance in the CPU which is absolutely tiny to run next generation titles, people will start calling them lazy. The performance isn't free, if you take it from rendering then you won't have nearly as pretty a picture as you'd expect.


 Wow in 2013 the ps4 will launch with a graphics card from 2011.


Huh?



slowmo on 07 November 2012

In other news, the sun will rise tomorrow...

Surely this is expected. The Wii U version will still struggle to compete with the online multiplayer imo, this will hurt sales, especially the legs.



Viper1 on 07 November 2012
Player1x3 said:
Viper1 said:

Not as big as the jump from PS2 to PS3.  That was just an insane jump that will not likely ever be repeated.

I believe we will see a similar jump from ps3 to ps4, but that's another topic

I do know that a game designed wholly from the ground up on Wii U with the intention of being highly graphical in presentation developed by a team with some years of experience on the system with sufficient budget and resources would defintely stand out graphically above what is seen on PS3/X360.  

Ok, so why is that none of the U exclusive games look nowhere near as good as some of the best 7th gen games? On Ps3, on all launch games you could see a clear difference between last gen and next gen? That's not the case with U. That was really my original point.

Quantifying how much more is where things get difficult.  Not just in simply not knowing the peak potential yet but in the mere fact that "how much better" tends to be subjective to each viewer.

I agree.

 

Go back and read that first post you quote me on.   Read if carefully.  Notice the context of what is being said.   Then compare that circumstance to the one I just described above.  It's such a vastly different situation.  Again, they can and eventually will look better.   How much better is unknowna nd may depend on whether developers want to put in the extra work to show it.   Nintendo stated recently that the reason that NSMBU is in 720p rather than 1080p is because it would cost a lot more to develop the game in 1080 yet it wouldn't change the amount of sales at all....so why bother?   If this remains the situation for most developers on Wii U, we may not see many games that really push the system until the PS4/X360 arrive.

I agree that they will eventually look better. Im just not sure the difference would be ''generation ahead'' big, like it should be.



I'll give a full reply to this later.  Just marking it now so I know to come back when I have time.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

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DieAppleDie on 07 November 2012

this is the very least we should get
the WiiU is at least 1.5 more pwerfull than the PS3, that should be noticeable from DAY 1
devs are trying to pull a GC situation, where the most powerful hw gets the downport, that should be all the way round my friends!!!!!



Mr Puggsly on 07 November 2012
pezus said:

This thread is talking about Black Ops 2 graphics, and he saw fit to compare them to Killzone's.

Exactly! Its a thread talking about Black Ops 2! This is a discussion about which port will look the best, not what is the best looking FPS. In that case Halo 4 would have been mentioned instead.



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curl-6 on 07 November 2012
Player1x3 said:
curl-6 said:
Player1x3 said:
curl-6 said:
Player1x3 said:
curl-6 said:

The PS3 and 360 primarily run on dual analogue controllers almost identical in design to the original PS1 dualshock released in 1997.

Even IF the Wii U isn't that much more powerful than the PS3/360, I'll take 7th gen graphics with an 8th gen controller over 7th gen graphics with a 5th gen controller.


Wait, hold on a second. What do controllers have to do with the price of green tea in southwestern part of Indonesia ??? I think you're going off topic here a bit

The point is that you seem to be implying the Wii U isn't next gen because it's not a clear graphical leap, (yet) but graphics are no longer the defining factor in what generation a console belongs to.


Technical advance is the only thing that defines next generation of hardware.

And the tablet controller is such an advance, as was the Wii remote.


Where exactly have I stated that U isnt next gen?

I said you seemed to be implying it,  not that you stated it. 



Squilliam on 08 November 2012
z101 said:
Squilliam said:

When the next generation of consoles from Sony and Microsoft are out noone will care about how the Wii U outperforms the Xbox 360 and PS3 

And the people didn't care that Xbox1 and Gamecube outperforms PS2.

 

Squilliam said:

When the developers finally have to start tapping the GPU to make up for the lack of performance in the CPU which is absolutely tiny to run next generation titles, people will start calling them lazy. The performance isn't free, if you take it from rendering then you won't have nearly as pretty a picture as you'd expect.

The CPU outperforms the Xbox360-CPU easily. But on top of that it will be assisted by the DSP-Unit that does all the Sound and Music processing which could easily take one 1/3 of CPU-Power in XBox360 games. On top of that you don't now how much power the PS4 and XBox3 CPUs will have. The APU10-CPU in PS4 not seem to be much more powerful than Wii U PowerPC-CPU at all.

Could be that Sony make the same mistake again they made with the Vita. The Vita tech specs sounds great on paper, but reality the graphical complex games like Uncharted or Liberation only use half screen resolution, because the Vita lacks the power.

Something to think about:

When testing our first code on Wii U we were amazed how much we could throw at it without any slowdowns, at that time we even had zero optimizations. The performance problem of hardware nowadays is not clock speed but ram latency. Fortunately Nintendo took great efforts to ensure developers can really work around that typical bottleneck on Wii U. They put a lot of thought on how CPU, GPU, caches and memory controllers work together to amplify your code speed. For instance, with only some tiny changes we were able to optimize certain heavy load parts of the rendering pipeline to 6x of the original speed, and that was even without using any of the extra cores.

Source: http://www.notenoughshaders.com/2012/11/03/shinen-mega-interview-harnessing-the-wii-u-power/

Yes the Wii U is efficient but that does not in any way make it powerful. The next generation consoles from Microsoft and Sony are going to be both more efficiently designed and more powerful than the Wii U and this is likely in the order of 4-6 times. So from this perspective it is appropriate to say that people won't really care that the Wii U is more capable than the Xbox 360 and PS3 especially given the fact that a significant proportion of the advantage will be wasted on the new development paradigms which come about as more performance is made available as a baseline. 




Tease.

Squilliam on 08 November 2012
cunger said:
Squilliam said:
cunger said:
Squilliam said:
The Wii U is designed to run games at 60FPS given that is Nintendo's target and this game also targets 60FPS. The game itself is quite a good match to what the Wii U is capable of. In the end however this all doesn't matter given the fact that the next gen consoles from Sony and Microsoft are considerably more powerful again.


More powerfull but will have nowhere near the same type of advantage as they had over the original wii.  The main benifit will come from the ability to have brilliant graphics and stable performance in stereo 3d but he wiiu will hang in there in 2d performance for the majority of Nintendo's 6 year lifecylce.

The Wii U is more efficient than current generation consoles yes; however it isn't outright a performance beast. Having modern shaders and 32MB of embedded memory makes it a good fit for a game which targets 60FPS as these are simply extensions of the advantages the Xbox 360 GPU bought to the table which allowed it great performance next to the PS3. When the next generation of consoles from Sony and Microsoft are out noone will care about how the Wii U outperforms the Xbox 360 and PS3 for the same reason that the idea that the Wii was more powerful than the Xbox gained little traction, if you wanted the performance you're already looking elsewhere.

When the developers finally have to start tapping the GPU to make up for the lack of performance in the CPU which is absolutely tiny to run next generation titles, people will start calling them lazy. The performance isn't free, if you take it from rendering then you won't have nearly as pretty a picture as you'd expect.


The difference here is that Sony and Microsoft are not making a massive leap like last time. Wow in 2013 the ps4 will launch with a graphics card from 2011. And secondly the wii was not more powerfull than the original xbox. It was overall slightly less. The Wiiu is twice as powerfull overall than the original xbox.  It 100% will not be the same situation. Esspecially when you factor in that the Wiiu has a decent online service and dual anolog based controllers with all the cross platform buttons.

The rumours point to Sea Islands based consoles which is the upcoming 2013 AMD graphics architecture along with their very good low power Jaguar cores and 8GB of RAM for Durango but less is known about Orbis (PS4). It would have been 7 years and 8 years respectively between console generations for the PS4/Xbox next so it isn't hard to fathom that if they're budgeting twice the cost of the Wii U internal hardware at $399 for a base console on a completely newer process node without the constraints of fitting it into such a small box that the overall console won't be a significant leap over the current generations.

I never claimed anything significant about how the 3rd parties will support the Wii U so why do you infer that I did?



Tease.