TruckOSaurus said:
Presented that way, that's actually a much better point. Might I suggest, you included all that info in the OP because as it is, it's very misleading and imcomplete. |
Updated in the OP.
RolStoppable said:
I would argue that this revised point is still misleading, because it doesn't take into account a checklist for what makes games sell.
If you were to list all hardcore games (as by the criteria laid out in the OP) for Nintendo home consoles over the past three generations, the list of games from known IPs that were good mainline games and had a proper marketing push would be incredibly short. So the question that needs to be answered is if it is the Nintendo userbase that is at fault or if we are actually looking at self-inflicted wounds by third parties.
|
I don't view it as misleading because it's just cold hard data.
I'm not assigning blame to any party. I just think certain trends are interesting, like for example the N64 having more success with these types of games at only 33 million consoles over the Wii with 96 million. It's not like the N64 had a ton of third party support either. Hard to argue against the data.
How you want to spin the numbers is up to you.
Soundwave said:
|
You're going to have to add a couple of Dragon Quest games to the Snes too, then. Unless Chorono Trigger somehow lists as hardcore, while the Dragon quests don't.
I think you're attempting to do something interesting here, but that it's ultimately not going to tell a lot because it's too hard to set criteria that make the list interesting.
For instance, if you were to make the list for the X360, you'd more or less end up with nothing but Halo, Gears of War, Fable and arguably Forza above 3 million. This is troublesome, because that counts to less than 10 games, while including multiplats would lead the number up to over 30.
As such, a large reason of the drop from N64 to Gamecube is simply that games were no longer either one console or the other, but rather usually multiplats. This means that if you were going to apply your definitions to the Playstation consoles, you'd most likely see a massive drop from Ps1 to Ps2, due to games going multiplats.
Part of the reason you're seeing the trend you are, is that your definition makes it seem that the industry changing from exclusives to multiplats is increasing the trend a lot.
Soundwave said:
We already know that Mario games sell well on Nintendo consoles, that doesn't really mean much if you're developing say ... Zombi U or Ninja Gaiden. This list is intended to remove that and look at things from the POV of a publisher who doesn't have the luxury of putting Mario or Mickey or Lego, etc. into their games, by looking at the historical record of what games like that have sold on Nintendo platforms from 1995 onwards. One of the interesting trends that becomes visible is that it's very hard to sell more than 3 million copies of a game without benefit of Mario/Zelda or a kids-friendly brand on the last three Nintendo game consoles (15-16 year period). |
You already see two games 'marioified' their Wii U lineup. Tekken and Scarbblenauts developers know their games wont be able to stand up on their own against nintendo's own lineup so they have to include characters (or look alikes) to be revelant.
Pineapple said:
You're going to have to add a couple of Dragon Quest games to the Snes too, then. Unless Chorono Trigger somehow lists as hardcore, while the Dragon quests don't. I think you're attempting to do something interesting here, but that it's ultimately not going to tell a lot because it's too hard to set criteria that make the list interesting. For instance, if you were to make the list for the X360, you'd more or less end up with nothing but Halo, Gears of War, Fable and arguably Forza above 3 million. This is troublesome, because that counts to less than 10 games, while including multiplats would lead the number up to over 30. As such, a large reason of the drop from N64 to Gamecube is simply that games were no longer either one console or the other, but rather usually multiplats. This means that if you were going to apply your definitions to the Playstation consoles, you'd most likely see a massive drop from Ps1 to Ps2, due to games going multiplats. Part of the reason you're seeing the trend you are, is that your definition makes it seem that the industry changing from exclusives to multiplats is increasing the trend a lot. |
The only DQ games released on a Nintendo console 1995 or after are DQVI and DQX which I could add.
There isn't a massive drop from PS1 to PS2 actually. There's an increase.
I think by and large it's hard to argue that games of this nature (more realistic or violent) tend to have a much bigger market on Sony/MS platforms.
The SNES did deal with multiplatform titles on the Genesis too.
Leaving multiplats off helps Nintendo in this case, because multiplats generally don't sell all that great on Nintendo platforms.
TruckOSaurus said:
Check my previous post to Soundwave. |
I like it.
| Soundwave said: I just listed some of the better selling exclusive/premiere "hardcore" games off the top of my head, but it gives you a comparison to other platforms: |
Then you have your criteria:
'The Criteria: The games have to have been exclusive or have premiered on a Nintendo home console from 1995 onwards. No Mario/Zelda games are included, nor are any games using mascots (sorry Sonic, Kirby, DK, etc.), no kids-centric brands (no Pokemon, Disney/Mickey, Lego, etc.), and no fitness/dance/mini-game fests (nuh uh to Just Dance, Wii Sports, Carnival Games, etc.)."
If that is your critira then why are you listing grand turismo, uncharted for playsation and why are you listing halo and gears of war games for xbox?
arnt the characters and franchises of these as iconic to those console owners as much as mario and zelda are to nintendo owners?
| RolStoppable said:
I would argue that this revised point is still misleading, because it doesn't take into account a checklist for what makes games sell.
If you were to list all hardcore games (as by the criteria laid out in the OP) for Nintendo home consoles over the past three generations, the list of games from known IPs that were good mainline games and had a proper marketing push would be incredibly short. So the question that needs to be answered is if it is the Nintendo userbase that is at fault or if we are actually looking at self-inflicted wounds by third parties.
|
More data always helps, but OP is a good start. I agree that it would really help to consider those factors too.
Cobretti2 said:
'The Criteria: The games have to have been exclusive or have premiered on a Nintendo home console from 1995 onwards. No Mario/Zelda games are included, nor are any games using mascots (sorry Sonic, Kirby, DK, etc.), no kids-centric brands (no Pokemon, Disney/Mickey, Lego, etc.), and no fitness/dance/mini-game fests (nuh uh to Just Dance, Wii Sports, Carnival Games, etc.)."
If that is your critira then why are you listing grand turismo, uncharted for playsation and why are you listing halo and gears of war games for xbox? arnt the characters and franchises of these as iconic to those console owners as much as mario and zelda are to nintendo owners? |
It's not based on "icon-ism". Anything can be iconic to a platform. It's based on whether a game has a family-friendly aesthetic or not. We're looking at games that don't have the benefit of family-friend art style/design/character design and are generally aimed an older audience.
If you want to make a separate thread comparing how Nintendo thrashes Sony/MS in Mario, Pokemon, Animal Crossing, etc. Vs. LBP Vs. Crash Bandicoot Vs. Viva Pinata, feel free to do so.
RolStoppable said:
Your data is massively flawed which was already highlighted by the PS1-PS3 example. What you have presented may be cold, hard data on the surface, but ultimately it is pretty much the same as the stats I am using in the NFL thread to troll other people. I am cherry-picking actual data and putting my spin on it, just like you are doing in this thread. Whether you are doing this deliberately or not, the outcome is the same: It's a flawed way to look at things. |
The point of the thread is to look at Nintendo platforms, the PS1/2/3/PSP/360 data is just added for fun and is unfair to those platforms as I'm not going to spend 5 hours researching each one of those systems so those lists are incomplete. It took long enough to do N64-Wii essentially (that's 15+ years, lol).
I think it's relatively well known that these types of games tend to sell better on Sony/MS platforms anyway, I just wanted to look at Nintendo in specific and see what were the best selling games in this categorey and on which Nintendo system did they thrive best.
Also fun to look back at some older games like Eternal Darkness or Excitebike 64 and see where they all stack up against each other.
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