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Forums - Politics Discussion - A debate, Capitalism Vs Communism

 

Capitalism Vs Communism

Capitalism 77 52.38%
 
Communism 36 24.49%
 
Other (if it exists) 34 23.13%
 
Total:147
shokenchi said:
there has never been any "pure" communist country in history and never will. only thing comes close to communism was native american tribes. the so called communist countries are just dictatorships with communist ideology.


Communal living can and does work on the small scale, as in families or communities of about 100 people. The "dictatorships with a communist ideology" are true communist states because that is the eventual outcome of centralizing all of the economic power within an economy.

Beyond that, at its core communism and utilitarianism are very similar ideas and can justify completely immoral acts. The loss of individual rights and the creation of immoral accounting to justify the states actions ensures that individuals will be abused for "the greater good".



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Badassbab said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Badassbab said:
SamuelRSmith said:

America got rich because it embraced capitalism in the 19th century. It decays now, because it fares away from it. The "emerging nations" are doing so because they are embracing more and more capitalism today. To argue that the way to "ruin" somewhere is to have capitalism, is to argue against history.


America got rich in the 19th century because of geography, protectionism, Europeans fighting each other and immense natural resources. State capitalism played it's part.


Geography and natural resources have nothing to do with it. Hong Kong is essentially just a big rock with zero natural resources, and yet it's one of the richest places in the world. Because of capitalism. Many places in the world are far more resource-blessed than the USA, and is still far poorer. Look at Africa and Latin America, for example.

Did Americans not fight each other in the 19th century? Best throw out my history books, then!

Protectionism, I'm not gonna dispute that America had protectionism, but it grew rich despite it. To argue that protectionism makes a country rich is to argue that a family who refused to trade with any outside individual could become wealthy through it. Have to build your own shelter, make your own clothes, grow your own food, harvest your own energy, etc... everybody would have a job! The family's employment would be 100%, they'd be billionaires! Right?

Protectionism- The US employed the highest import tariffs in it's history to protect it's domestic manufacturing base from cheaper foreign imports. Only once did they become competitive on the world market did it lower the tarrifs. E.g the average tarriff during 1870 was 44.6%, today it's less than 2%.

Except the reason the US employed those tarrifs was for revenue purposes during the Civil War... it was kept in place because it was seen as a no lose money grab.

American goods were superior internationally as early as the 1880's.

Tarrifs only persisted as a political corruption.  Politicians acting to change tarrifs to benefit their special interests to regain reelection... and reallly only damaged US growth.  

Which is why the Democrats ran on a policy of lowering Tarifs... though when elected often didn't follow through because... well special interests.



All large governments are inefficient, corrupt, and lead by a small group of a few elites.

Knowing this, hell no to Communism.



:D said:
All large governments are inefficient, corrupt, and lead by a small group of a few elites.

Knowing this, hell no to Communism.


Granted I'm not pro-communism, by your original statement there can apply to pretty much any government.

Free market, communism, etc. there always seems to be a few people that really have the majority of power and a bunch of masses below them.



What about Socialism?

I grew up being taught that was terrible, but the USA has plenty of socialism that is good. Like, our military, fire department, police, air traffic controllers. It isn't all bad.

Last we I had I guy ask me if I thought Obama was a communist. I asked why would he even call him that? His answer Obamacare. I had to explain to him about socialism, and how it was socialism though social security that he receives that is keeping him alive.

I am not sure he understood.



 

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Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!

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SamuelRSmith said:
Badassbab said:
SamuelRSmith said:

America got rich because it embraced capitalism in the 19th century. It decays now, because it fares away from it. The "emerging nations" are doing so because they are embracing more and more capitalism today. To argue that the way to "ruin" somewhere is to have capitalism, is to argue against history.


America got rich in the 19th century because of geography, protectionism, Europeans fighting each other and immense natural resources. State capitalism played it's part.


Geography and natural resources have nothing to do with it. Hong Kong is essentially just a big rock with zero natural resources, and yet it's one of the richest places in the world. Because of capitalism. Many places in the world are far more resource-blessed than the USA, and is still far poorer. Look at Africa and Latin America, for example.

Did Americans not fight each other in the 19th century? Best throw out my history books, then!

Protectionism, I'm not gonna dispute that America had protectionism, but it grew rich despite it. To argue that protectionism makes a country rich is to argue that a family who refused to trade with any outside individual could become wealthy through it. Have to build your own shelter, make your own clothes, grow your own food, harvest your own energy, etc... everybody would have a job! The family's employment would be 100%, they'd be billionaires! Right?

Geography is actually quite important for an economy, it actually held back Russia's economy for along time, although this was in the late 19th century! Landsize and climate do play their part in econmy building, which is why economies are virtually non existent in deserts or the arctic. Hell, the only reason why dubai or abu dhabi are developing like mad is because of their oil, they would be nothing without oil. 

But, America grew rich especially in the east like new york because of protectionism, instead of colonising countries like the european powers. America expanded westwards, building what it could to connect the east and west. Protectionism potentially works in bigger countries like America, it could work in China but I don't think they would have the balls to try as it would screw the global economy and China makes too much from globalisation to do so now.

@badassbab Forget the American civil war did you? The war over slavery in the 1860's? Not only that people fought each other in the wild west too



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

Zappykins said:
What about Socialism?

I grew up being taught that was terrible, but the USA has plenty of socialism that is good. Like, our military, fire department, police, air traffic controllers. It isn't all bad.

Last we I had I guy ask me if I thought Obama was a communist. I asked why would he even call him that? His answer Obamacare. I had to explain to him about socialism, and how it was socialism though social security that he receives that is keeping him alive.

I am not sure he understood.


I'm not sure you understand.

Socialism isn't about the government providing essential services to its citizens, socialism is about heavy governmental involvement in the production of goods and services within the economy for the "common good"; where the "common good" is usually defined as massive wealth redistribution from those that worked to develop the wealth to those who did not.

"Obamacare" isn't socialism though, it is a series of rules that ensure rapidly increasing healthcare costs and the eventual collapse of the system. Suppose I was selling car insurance for $6000 per year and the government mandated that you had to buy this insurance or pay a $1500 penalty, and you could buy insurance after you got into an accident and I would be forced to repair any damage that occurred; in this kind of a system would you buy insurance before you got into an accident?



Capitalism at least reflects something about the true and ideal nature of man, namely freedom and prosperity. And it's a system that benefits wealth and progress.

Communism is pure dictatorship and bad.



spurgeonryan said:
Is there not free healthcare in Europe? Do people actually go hungry in America? Communism is not freedom. I promise you all that you have more freedom than you think. We are not the only country with big brother.


Nothing is free. We pay the healthcare with huge taxes.



Kynes said:
spurgeonryan said:
Is there not free healthcare in Europe? Do people actually go hungry in America? Communism is not freedom. I promise you all that you have more freedom than you think. We are not the only country with big brother.


Nothing is free. We pay the healthcare with huge taxes.

It's better than having to pay health insurance for rip off private healthcare. Private is good, but it should not be the only choice like in america, as the poorest suffer



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018