Kaz - I think the abortion in certain cases are fine. In case of incest the chances of the baby being born deformed are pretty high. The child will never have a normal life and be a drain on society. In the case of rape... maybe some mothers will be able to love the child but if the mother can't get over what happened to her she would take it out on her child... neglect him... that child shouldn't live a life like that... and in the case for the life of the mother... well that one is obvious... the child and mother are usually at risk why risk two lives if you can save one?

My problem with it however... how do you prove you were raped? Not every women get rape kits done afterwards... How do you prove the pregnancy was due to rape if the woman is sexually active... same goes for incest... how would anyone know that the kid is due to incest other than the woman saying so

Seriously, the Electoral College is a fundimentally good idea but the number of Electoral College votes needs to be regularly adjusted. When you're dealing with large and diverse countries like the United States of America and Canada you need a system that ensures that the leader of the country has support from most of the regions within the country, otherwise your political system will devolve into regionalism; which will (probably) end up with some form of civil war and the break-up of the country.

Its to be expected, This isn't really an election the winner is already determined and it will be Obama regardless of what the mainstream news tells you about the race tightening the winner will be Obama.

@ bolded thats exactly what i was thinking during the debate.

i also dont get the stance of no abortion except for rape and incest. but Ryan has to adopt the Romney platform, since obviously Romney is the one running for president. and unfortunately the media has spun the narrative that Romney has an extreme view on abortion, while obama has been for no restrictions tax payer funded abortion on demand, late term and partial birth abortion. and also voted agianst a born alive bill, that would save babies that were born alive after a botched abotion. Now which stance is more extreme?

but i just think at least no abotion, except for cases of rape and incest is better than nothing.

See, what bothers me here is that the right will fight like hell to see that the baby is brought to term, but once it's out? Fuck you, i got mine, you care for your kid.

Either you care for human life or you don't, which is why i'm more inclined to believe that the right's stance is more about oppressing women than it is about caring for any sort of sanctity of life.

Actually i think the general response is "Put youd kid up for adoption."

Afterall if you were going to abort it anyway, you didn't want it.

People like to cite foster kids numbers, but the truth is... there is a huge baby shortage in the country.

That said, I'm still pro choice.  It just annoys me when people say they think a fetus is a baby... yet clearly don't value it like a baby.

while I think there is a huge difference between not providing a livelyhood for someone and actually actively killng a person,  i kind of agree with you here.

I do think it is the responsibility of the government to some extent to provide the basic neccesities of live for a child, if the parents cannot do so. that includes taking them away from bad/abusive parents. Since obviously children cant provide for themselves.

and i guess millions of women like opressing themselves, especially the majority of married women with kids.

So, here I am, missing both debates, but catching the buzz afterwards. My take here, based on all the spin and so on, is that it is like Biden ended up going to the other end of style from Obama. Obama comes off detached, restrained, and seeming to lack energy. Biden then decides to be energetic, perky, and engaging with Ryan all the time. It is like the opposite of what Obama did. Every bit of Biden was a discrediting of Ryan and his views, the way Obama didn't do.

Onto the third debate to see if Obama does more, and then see how the partisans spin it.

I don’t think that is a fair characterization ...

I would say that (in general) most people who are pro-life want to prevent unwanted pregnancies rather than terminate them. In general, they would argue that (if you're unable to support a child) you should abstain from sex or at least have protected sex with responsible people; and if you end up pregnant you should favour adoption.

I generally find the left's positions far more bizzarre, they will argue that having sex doesn't mean that you're consenting to have a child unless you're a man; either sex does not obligate you to be a parent and we should create legal paternal surrender laws, or it is an obligation and women should not be able to abort their children. On top of this, since wide spread birth control, abortion, and several forms of surrendering your children exist to prevent women from having to support children they can't afford we're (as society) still to pay for these women to raise these children even though they consciously decided to have them knowing they couldn't afford them; and since their financial hardship is caused by a conscience choice then welfare should be denied to single mothers.

Somewhere where we agree, what do you know

It's not opression if someone does something willingly, of course. That'd be like saying all farmers are slaves because most slaves (in the western hemisphere at least) were put on farms. But forcing a woman to make a certain lifestyle choice has been shown to be detrimental to society in a number of ways, including decreased economic advancement and an increase in poverty and crime.

Which isn't to say i'm out there advocating abortions or unlimited unprotected sex. Unwanted pregnancies should be rare, and thus the decision to abort be rarer still, depending on how the individual feels about adoption or their willingness to actually be pregnant (and go through associated social stigmas, etc etc).

My idea is that abortion is a small but necessary part of the sex and reproduction tool-kit.