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Forums - General Discussion - Jesus Christ of Nazareth loves you!

ninetailschris on 22 September 2012
setsunatenshi said:
ninetailschris said:
setsunatenshi said:
ninetailschris said:
setsunatenshi said:
richardhutnik said:
pezus said:
richardhutnik said:
pezus said:
"Deuteronomy 22:28-29
28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives."

Did you miss this?

In that culture he gained the legal obligation to take care of her.  He had to treat her as a wife, if he went and did that.  If you are going to comment on this, and put it out there, do you care to show what it was like in that culture and comment on what happened to a woman who was made to no longer be a virgin?  Please feel free to, since that verse interests you so much.

I took it from Jay, who found it. Why did you and ninetails not comment on it when he put it forth? This makes one wonder whether the Bible is not just horribly outdated.

Anyone attempting to apply Old Testament laws, without understanding historical context is asking for trouble.  From a Christian perspective, it would be suggested HIGHLY that Old Testament texts are viewed through what the New Testament says.


That kind of proves the point that this god character didn't really create humans, humans have created this god. And 'his' oppinions seem to always reflect the morals and oppinions of the society that creates it.

In the example above if instead treating the woman as damaged good  this god character would say 'if you rape a woman you shall be punished. a woman who was raped is no less than she was before. virginity is not a quality in which you should value someone as a person, instead only take into consideration how well they treat themselves and others'

Now if this god character actually said something to this effect... maybe you could at least have a point for good advice

" And 'his' oppinions seem to always reflect the morals and oppinions of the society that creates it. "

Or....it could mean they got there way of living from God like the Commmandments. Like what they folloe and interact with. I don't even know how you twisted that into what you said. Because obvivious if you do some looking into how these people lived they lived exactly how they were told to live by God.

"In the example above if instead treating the woman as damaged good  this god character would say 'if you rape a woman you shall be punished. a woman who was raped is no less than she was before. virginity is not a quality in which you should value someone as a person, instead only take into consideration how well they treat themselves and others'"

So, you want to him to say something that he goes in to contradiction to what he says for you feel happy?  That would go against everything he says to say virginity is important because seperate us from some common dog on street humping anyone dog. The reason for virginity being quality is it's suppose to sarcred between man and woman in commintment to God in marriage. This suppose to be taken very seriously even though you think it is.  "consideration how well they treat themselves and others" Um why because that makes you feel good?  There steps to make marriage a contact between two genders to become one with God. It's not about do what every you feel like because it's meaningless then. Hell I could say have sex with children  as along as treat yourselfs and others good. It's just your own personal opinion on something which has nothing to with the point. 

"Now if this god character actually said something to this effect... maybe you could at least have a point for good advice"

Again why because it makes you feel good? You gave no reason but I want God to act the way i want him to and not like God. You using a entitlement argument where you think God is entitled to think like you who would be vasing inferior to a mind of God. It's like rat trying to tell me advise on how to be a man you don't understand percent of God knows yet you can teach him something? It's a circular argument. 

Just because God doesn't do what you think doesn't make him God it just make you seem to believe to know more then you actually do.


The problem is, I'm more moral than your god.

It was pretty disgusting seeing you implying that a woman losig her virginity means she's broke. You can damn well be sure that doesn't make me feel good.

But like I said before, it's really heart warming seeing religions strugling so much nowadays compared to any time in the past. The power of science is pushing the religions further into a corner and I'd be surprised if by the next turn of the century religion in the advanced world won't be something studied in a history class.

tic-toc-tic-toc...


1 sentence. One that is a subjective opinion it's like me saying blue is better than red. Your own moral system is based on your personal desires and thoughts not based on objective terms.

"It was pretty disgusting seeing you implying that a woman losig her virginity means she's broke. You can damn well be sure that doesn't make me feel good."

That's how rules are because sex is suppose to be sacred thing be for the God and the couple. This prevents sexual dieases and makes marriage more important. If you thing sex is for just pleasing yourself and you like that fact there men today have children and leave there wifes with no support. But again the most important is that sex is giving meaning with marriage. If your some type one night stand guy you will never understand this because you're animal and not human/man. If you just threw your body in that time that was considered not honorable and showed you had no self-respect/control. The society was the exact opposite of the societies nearby where you had child riturals,animal sex, and lot's corruption. The law  also helped it from having woman become posititutes and sex slaves.

Did people in that time had to worry about sexual disease? No.

Did they have to worry about people cheating? No, if they did they would be punished so people rarely did it, unlike today where you have millions.

Did this indirectly advertise safe-sex? YES! 

Did this prevent from woman having babies with some random stranger? YES

Did this teach self-control and later rewards from doing so? Yes, look at what happens when after getting married the woman you suppose to treated with respect and giving happiness for a whole MONTH. The guy can't even work doing this because he must treat his wife with happiness.

Did this strengthen family structure? Yes, because no one had to worry would there child would have sex with a man and ruin the family with money problems.  The women were CLASSIER because of this. You wouldn't hear about how cool it was to have sex with 5 men. 

Did this prevent marjority of kids from making bad decisions that could ruin there lives? Yes.

Now please tell why this was bad? The woman did a crime to herself, to God, her family or anyone else if she did something as careless as that. If she is raped then obviously like I stated eariler they solve the problem without punishing her because she didn't do anything. This was all taken very seriously they all agreed to never break this rules like any law.

No one at the time would even consider dating a woman like that because she already is telling everyone I don't care about what society says I will do my own thing. I don't care about my parents or God I know more than them. But guess what? Society isn't going to want to accept someone like that because there to busy trying to survival. By not following these laws you are already telling people all they need to know and therefor God doesn't even need to say anything becasue to people themselfs will be  disgusted.  Self-control and thinking about your society must be shown to want to continue in the society.

The fact is the society was better of because of the law than the opposite.

Good luck arguing against this because I know you will avoid it like last time.

"But like I said before, it's really heart warming seeing religions strugling so much nowadays compared to any time in the past. The power of science is pushing the religions further into a corner and I'd be surprised if by the next turn of the century religion in the advanced world won't be something studied in a history class."

Science and Christian goes as far back as Newton Isacc and the apple and even he believed in God and Science. Fast forward to today we see people who study evolution to how the world started and are Christians. I wouldn't be greatly surprised if you ever read a book on anything not forced on you from school. Science has never been a enemy of Christian on the fundmentalist believe that and goes for both atheists and Christians.

in your view having sex is a crime to yourself, to your family and to your magic sky daddy?

if anything this shows exactly how religion can twist and really destroy someone's humanity. i doubt you'll  ever understand it, but my point was never to convince you of that. my point was exactly to give you enough rope so you'd display full on how sickening those views are and how much we evolved as a society.

it's ok though... i think i can find a good solution to you. maybe go live in saudi arabia or  Uganda. They seem like the kind of societies in today's world whose accepted views seem to be on par with your own.


i'm still fighting to control the vomiting reflex i got from reading your post. the conversation will be over after this, it's enough. i'll reply no more.

 

tic toc tic toc

"in your view having sex is a crime to yourself, to your family and to your magic sky daddy? "

One: Learn to read. Safe-sex is what I'm saying and not just having sex for selfish reasons.  No where did I say sex is bad because I said marriage and sex is the best way which I gave my case which you couldn't counter. Like I predicted :).

Two: God isn't a sky daddy because .... he isn't in the sky.... only someone is who is uneducated and ignorant you would say he is. Your trolling is failing bad because of your lack of reading ability. For him to be a sky he would have to be a physical enity he isn't that takes up space which he doesn't. Look uo Omnipresent you may educate yourself.

"if anything this shows exactly how religion can twist and really destroy someone's humanity. i doubt you'll  ever understand it, but my point was never to convince you of that. my point was exactly to give you enough rope so you'd display full on how sickening those views are and how much we evolved as a society."

 

You just make claims without backing it up. You basically playing the crybaby card were you cry about how you don't like something but won't defend it because how simple minded it is. If anything YOU are hurting humanity because you don't have the ability to actually defend anything you just cry. You sound like when you talk to gangster about how a police officers are all not bad people but you keep repeating to yourself that there all bad but will ignore all argumentd against it. Your a typical whiner some who complains but doesn't like when someone puts some attention on you. Counter my arguments don't cry behind "oh I don't agree so therefor your wrong". Seems you admit defeat.

"it's ok though... i think i can find a good solution to you. maybe go live in saudi arabia or  Uganda. They seem like the kind of societies in today's world whose accepted views seem to be on par with your own."

Are you talking about the laws they have on woman that go directly against Bible? Like sex-slaves which I meation? Plus you just gave a comparision without tell us what your comparing it to? Tell me what you exactly saying are alike without trying to give a vague comparision. Because of I can clearly tell if you tried I would show you are wrong unlike you would probably avoid it....again.

"i'm still fighting to control the vomiting reflex i got from reading your post. the conversation will be over after this, it's enough. i'll reply no more."

Oh.... running away because I countered your points. Seems to me your just obvivously running before I exposed your illogical thinking and weak arguments. Heck you had to avoid my whole argument on how  marriage with sex when inforced lead to a better society for them. Your only argument was you just hated the idea and made you mad (I'm crying). Your logic is vomiting words on a page without anything coherence in mind it seems and not discussing anything actually being said.

Save yourself while you can.


 



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Runa216 on 23 September 2012

guys, if you are going to futilely argue with one another over something you can't possibly know, at least keep the quotes to one post at a time? When it gets to the point where there's 90% quoted material, 10% new material per post, it becomes a game of "scroll the page"

Will someone think of the scroll wheels!



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Scoobes on 23 September 2012

Yes, someone think of the scroll wheels!




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DaRev on 23 September 2012
Scoobes said:
DaRev said:

@ Bolded 1

How do you find something is irrelivant if you from the outset have absolutly no regard for it? Let's stick with the rape issue. The underlying and ultimate purpose of that rule in the Bible was to protect the victim/women. Are saying then that that underlying principle, i.e. protecting the victim/woman, is irrelivant today?

Nothing predates the historical accounts of the bible, especially the new testiment. Many civilisations, Jewish and even Muslim, today confirm the authentisity of the Bible. To say that anything predates the accounts of the Bible just says that you have no idea of Biblical civilisations and how their traditions and culture were preserved throught time. You cannot go comparing biblical HISTORY to a bards tales. Next thing you'll be telling me is that Moses and the Isrealites were never in Egypt! Did the Romans ever occupy Israel and hence Crucify Jesus, or was that just another biblical wise tale that Christians love to tell?

 

@ Bolded 2

Maybe we do agree here. But I believe that we got or moral rules from God. Listen friend, you cannot give account for any man, so if someone wants to use the bible for evil works then he will one day have to answer to God. You just need to live a life that is pleasing to God. And I will leave you with this from the Bible, Pslams 37: 

  Fret not thyself because of evildoers, neither be thou envious against the workers of iniquity.

2 For they shall soon be cut down like the grass, and wither as the green herb.

3 Trust in the Lord, and do good; so shalt thou dwell in the land, and verily thou shalt be fed.

4 Delight thyself also in the Lord: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.

5 Commit thy way unto the Lord; trust also in him; and he shall bring it to pass.

6 And he shall bring forth thy righteousness as the light, and thy judgment as the noonday.

7 Rest in the Lord, and wait patiently for him: fret not thyself because of him who prospereth in his way, because of the man who bringeth wicked devices to pass.

8 Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.

9 For evildoers shall be cut off: but those that wait upon the Lord, they shall inherit the earth.

10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.

11 But the meek shall inherit the earth; and shall delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

@ 1

On the rape issue, the purpose was to protect the woman? Then it failed miserably. The woman had a choice of financial stability and emotional torture, or both emotional torture and financial instability (and possible suicide).  All it says to me is that the rather human culture back then was brutal, misguided and immoral by todays standards. If god was seriously trying to give moral guidance then why have human views on morality changed so greatly over time? (slaves, rape, homosexuality etc.)

The bible is only a single source. You can't look at history through a single source just because some people hold it as sacred. It was still written by human beings. Do you honestly think the bible (let alone the new testament... you realise the old testament is older right?) predates all the ancient civilisations that existed and all the archaelogical evidence we have for said civilisations?

http://www.magickalshadow.com/gilgamesh.html

The Epic of Gilgamesh is dated around 2100 BC, the incredibly similar Noah's Ark story appeared around 1300-1200 BC. It's quite possible the story was passed down either through word of mouth, written tablets or both. That's not even mentioning the large body of evidence we have for the Ancient civilisations of the near-east for which we have accounts starting from around 3300 BC. The magnificent ancient Egyptian pyramids are dated to have been built during the Old Kingdom (2686-2182 BC, the Great Pyramid was built around 2600 BC). Stonehenge was completed in 2200 BC. The story of Moses on Mount Sinai is calculated to have occured between 1312 -1280 BC. I think a lot of human history predates the bible, or are the Egyptian pyramids bards stories too?

That's without going into how the texts in the New Testament were collated by a group of Eastern Romans in 325 AD who chose what to include and what to ignore/claim as heretical. So humans, corruptable, fallible humans decided what to include in the New Testament 325 years after Christ. How much did culture, politics and personal preferences influence which gospels and writings to include and which to burn? How do you know that those texts that were discarded were truly heretical and not the true teachings of Jesus considering it was a group of men that decided this? Just today a piece of papyrus was revealed describing how Jesus supposedly had a wife:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-19645273

So the material in the bible is, from a historical perspective, only a single piece of evidence in a growing database of artifacts, scrolls and tablets. Biblical canon and true history aren't the same thing.

@ 2

If god gave morals to man then what's happened with clinical sociopaths who are incapable of feeling empathy for others? Your morals come from a mix of genetics and your upbringing. You were raised to believe in the morals of the bible, but what about kids who are raised by racist and homophobic parents who use the contents of the bible to preach hate? Their morals are shaped by the people who raise them and are influenced by the people around them.

Morality isn't static, it changes depending on the culture/society you live in and the people you have around you. Its also shaped by your genes, especially in the case of sociopaths.

Sorry for the late response.

@1

Yes God protected the woman and God's way of doing that is still very relevent today. it appears to me that you have no concept of how life was back then, or is even today in some cultures.  As I mentioned before God's rules then and now, and long after your bones have turned to dust will be (1) Love God, and (2) Love your fellow man. So, how is that not relivant today? With regards rape, if you love your fellow man, you wouldn't go around raping people or hurting them in any way. That is Gods rule, so how is that not relivant today?

My bible begins with 'In the Beginning', now I don't know when your other historical ccounts start but mine/the bible starts from the beginning. Consider for example the geneology of Jesus, which in those days geneologys were maticulously recorded by the Jews. Whole sections of the Bible are dedicated to geneology of the Jews, and the need to record this as Historical fact. So consider how they recorded the geneology of Jesus:

Jesus, (A)when he began his ministry, was about (B)thirty years of age, being (C)the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, (D)the son of Zerubbabel, the son (E)of Shealtiel,[a] the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of (F)Nathan, the son of David, 32 (G)the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 (H)the son of Jacob, (I)the son of Isaac, (J)the son of Abraham, (K)the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.

So this is just one example of how the History in the Bible goes back further than anything MAN by himself, as oppse to GOD through man, has recorded. So while I agree that the Bible is not THE ONLY source, it is most certainly the MOST AUTHRITATIVE source of such historical events.

So your trying to tell me that if other historical sourcse talk about stuff like ancient Eygypt and the Pyramids you can believe them, but when the Bible talks about the same stuff but adds characters like Moses and before him Joseph, you cannot believe the Bible?


@2

Agreed, but regardless of whose morals a person was raised on. It doesn't negate the fact that God's morals exist, i.e. (1) Love God, and (2) Love you fellow man. So my friend, if someone wants to go out there and kill, rape, steal or whatever, such doesn't mean that there is no God.

And God might agree with your last statement as well, because the Bible says that we're all sinners, no man is 'good'. Jesus even said to one man, don't call me/Jesus good, for only God is good. In principle, we're all in the same boat friend, so don't think that you or I are any better than the sociopaths, killers, or rapists, because we all have the propensity to do evil, ultimately this is why we all need God.

You know, you sound like you would make a good Christian my friend.



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gigaSheik on 23 September 2012

Muhammad and Buddah love you too.



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lestatdark on 23 September 2012

And so does the goddess



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Kawaiix33 on 03 October 2012

Jesus is awesome and a perfect God



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Runa216 on 03 October 2012



Just something I like to share in the middle of god debates. carry on.



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sales2099 on 03 October 2012

Now I am Catholic and I have the utmost respect for my religion, but the OP just seems.......too into it.

"He invites you to get to know Him personally. Seek Him and you will find Him." Im sorry but this sounds like your a cult leader and your getting us pumped up to drink the special punch bowl.

As a modern Christian, I live my life to the principles and thank God for my blessings. But to take it to the point of such zeal.....I dont know. Doesnt sit right with me.

But then again, to each their own, fellow Christian.



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