Yes, that absolutely was in your first post:

"Yet the Wii still didn't get as much market as the Ps2 or Ps1 did"

When Roma corrected you on the Wii vs PS1:

Roma:  "PS2 has been sold now for over 10 years and Wii will most likely pas PS1 next year"

You then criticized Roma:

"as for ps1 sales... nice comparing a the wii that launched in 2006 to a system who launched in in 1994."

Whether the OP compared the two before you is irrelevant to my point.  My response to you was regarding you criticizing Roma for comparing the two when you made the comparison before him (Wii didn't get as much market as the PS1).  It was hypocritical.

Also, I agree, the PS360 will eventually pass the sales of the PS2, but my point again is that without the Wii, they could never eclipse the previous generation console sales (PS2, Xbox, GC), hence the point of the OP that a new hook can be a game changer.

The PS3 is currently the number one selling home console globally (and as been for a long time), and it has no "hook" at all. Hard core gamers don't care about hooks. They care about games. As long as the next systems cater to the hard core, and their games are great, those systems will sell fine.

The hook is there. Games online motion graphics ect.

@ Jay

What is mean by "hook" is a feature of the platform that appeals to the mass market. Clearly if Nintendo made Gamecube 2.0, that is just an upgraded hardware, it would have probably sold less than Gamecube. I seriously think you underestimate how significant the Wiimote was for its success. I mean, it's a console that lacked most of the major 3rd party games and had outdated hardware and still is going to be in the 100+ million club, something the 360 and PS3 will likely never be in. Moreover it was so appealing Sony and Microsoft realized it and tried to emulate motion controls.

I have more examples than than the Wii from which I draw my inference.
It has been argued that PS2 sold so well because it was also a relatively inexpensive DVD player. The DS is Nintendo's highest selling platform and probably be the highest selling gaming platform ever if it already isn't. Apparently the dual screen and touch screen was a big hook. No other Nintendo handheld has come close to selling as much as the DS.


What I mean by fail is that the 720 and PS4 will not have any impact on the mass market. It won't be a mass market console. I seriously doubt it would even sell half as much as its predecessors. Sony and Microsoft must offer something appealing - a hook to sell as much or more than their previous hardware because shinier graphics are not going to cut it especially when the consoles are going to be priced above the mass market sweet spot.

I believe Nintendo has the next gen in the bag if its competitors can't bring anything new, especially if Nintendo can get most of the multiplats.

First of all Roma hasn't corrected me on Wii vs Ps1. Wii U is about to launch and take over the Wii's spot. Secondly you said I was the first to compare when its clear it was the OP. And I have no clue how youve come to the conclusion that without the Wii the sales would have never surpassed the previous gens sales. Thats absurdity.

Its obvious that the market wanted graphics over controls hence the 60% market share. And its obvious thats what the market still wants hence the ps3360 selling at a higher rate constantly

I don't know what you mean being a "mass market console." For clarity, I'd like to ask if you think the 360 and PS3 are mass market consoles?

- If you answer yes, then my next question is: If both the X360 and PS3 can be mass market consoles without a hook, then what makes you think the 720 and the PS4 won't? If the PS360 are mass market consoles, then I see no justification that the PS4 and 720 cannot be mass market consoles.

- If you answer no, then by mass market console, you must mean a 100m+ selling console (since both the PS3 & 360 should reach 80-90m). In which case, I really cannot make any confident predictions on that. Times are definitely changing and I cannot say with any certainty what will be required by the market to sell 100m units next generation. 

I think it's interesting that you said that if the PS4 and 720 don't have a hook, then they won't sell half as much as the PS3 and 360. What is your justification for this? If the PS360 can sell with no hook, but the PS4 and 720 cannot, then there is clearly a change in the market. My question is: What evidence do you have that suggests that the market is changing so much? You have shown evidence that a hook improves a console's success. But you haven't showed evidence that a hook is necessary for a console's success.

And Lastly, if your definition of 'hook' is so broad that it includes the PS2's DVD Player, then I think it's very safe to assume both the PS4 and 720 will have a multitude of hooks anyway.

The reason the Gamecube failed was because Nintendo, up to that point, had a business structure in place that mandated direct competition. The SNES was a Genesis, only with more powerful specs. The N64 was a PS1, only with more powerful specs. The Gamecube was a PS2...well, you get the idea. When it got to the PS2 era, gaming had changed. Mario was considered "kiddy". Nintendo was considered "kiddy". They were viewed as a little kids company that made little kids games and sold purple toy like consoles. Core gamers rejected them almost entirely that gen for that reason alone. Nintendo realized this and figured out that they just couldn't compete anymore and released an entirely NEW product, aimed at an entirely NEW demograph...casuals (grandmother,sister,mother,grandfather etc.) and it worked. That's the ONLY reason the Wiimote exists. It's not because they wanted to change the industry, breath new life into it, or whatever else they told us. It was simply a smart way to stay in business.

If you look at the 360, it had no hooks. Regular hardware, regular controller etc. It outsold the first Xbox by more than 40 million units. Hooks aren't needed if the core is happy. Keep the core happy by releasing good, hard core games, with regular controllers, and you'll do fine.

@ Max

If the mass market cared so much about shinier graphics then the Wii wouldn't have outsold the 360 and PS3 by tens of millions. And I would argue more people bought a 360 or PS3 more so for the 3rd party games rather than graphics which the Wii didn't get for the most part.

If Wii U gets most of the multiplats (which I think they will) and the 720/PS4 has no hook then Wii U will dominate the console marketshare. This I have no doubt.

*sigh* 

Once more:  My comment was directed at your hypocrisy TOWARD ROMA.  You made the comparison BEFORE HIM (it had nothing to do with your discussion with the OP) and when he presented the inevitable to you, you criticized him by dismissing the comparison.  Fact. 

How is hard to understand that without Wii sales, the PS360 alone would never have surpassed the 6th gen consoles?  With even more potential customers during the 7th gen and a longer gen without successors to boot, you believe the PS360 can surpass 200m+ (PS2, Xbox, GC,DC)?  THAT is absurdity...

The "mass market" are made up mostly of people who left the building though. They weren't gamers. They were hipsters, the types that just buy whatever is "in" or "trendy". That's the reason the Wii dove off a cliff sales wise. The ipad/iphone stole those people away which left Nintendo in a position of "what do we do now"? See, they screwed up by going TOO casual. Remember the Wii Sport Resort E3 show? No? I don't blame you, it was ridiculous. They went WAY TOO FAR trying to sell casual games to casual gamers. So far, in fact, that they almost completely ignored the core demograph, the people who own PS3's and 360's. So when the casual left to buy ipads etc, who was left?

No one.

So if you think the Wii-U is going to do what the Wii did, simply because it has a different controller, you're in a for a rude awakening. It's not going to be about controllers next gen. It's going to go back to who offers the best core games and best core experiences because the core is all that's left.