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Forums - Politics - More evidence that rights-based ethical systems have flawed foundations.

richardhutnik said:

Pretty much anything that isn't simply resolved comes about when you have rights in conflict.  When everything is merely framed in context of rights, there is a lack of yielding or seeing a larger collective good picture.  In short, you can't build an optimal ethical structure on rights alone or even one based mainly on rights.

Rights are conflicting, yes thats very old wisdom. But that doesn't mean you can't build an ethical structure based on rights, you only have to prioritize them.

You could say the same about rules: rules are conflicting with each other. Even if they come from a rules-system, like the 10 commandments from the bible: you can always build situations where these things are conflicting with each other. So - that's your point?



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Mnementh said:
richardhutnik said:
Mr Khan said:
It's ultimately a moot point. We should have universal health coverage, and the gutless government is doing so in a way that happens to force religious institutions to betray some of their values.

The Obama Administration shouldn't be doing this, but the "why" of it has little to do with religion.

Another example I could of used is how a homosexual activist forced a Christian film development studio to develop a promotional film for homosexuality, by means of the courts.  The activist argued they had a right to not be denied service, and pitted that said right against the owners of the company to say they didn't want to be involved with anything they saw as promoting sin.

EHarmony.com ran into another one.  They offered their service for heterosexuals only, as their market.  They were sued in court to require offering their matching services for homosexuals.  To placate these requirements, eharmony.com ended up setting up a separate service.  I know of eharmony, because Dr. Warren targeted his research at churches in the beginning.

Again, you see over and over what people considered rights in continual conflict with other people's rights.  And these rights end up individual or collectively.  The rights-based ethical systems don't provide any answers for prioritizing.

Both examples are again persons against non-persons. Again, if you prefer personal rigths it's clear which side wins.

And yes, rights of one side always can conflict with other rights. That's normal. We usually have priorities defined.

People were arguing a case that rights NEVER conflict ever.  In this argument, the rights actually got reduced to one, liberty, and that being one of choice and coersion.  Anything not coerced is right, and anything coerced is always wrong.

And what I had initially brought up is that rights-based ethics systems run into a problem with prioritizing.  When in conflict, it is hard to get people to agree to what should have the higher priority.  Rights-based ethical systems run into the opposite problems that Utilitarianism does, which is that conflicts go unresolved.  Utilitarianism will come up with a formula and calculate the greatest good, and not respect basic rights, which pretty much need to be absolute, in order to be respected.  And this goes into a reason why the foundation of rights-based ethics systems fall short.

Another one is sins of omission.  People here are arguing they don't exist, and reduce moral wrongs to what you do to someone and fail to account for things one can do, but don't:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin_of_omission



Mnementh said:
richardhutnik said:
Soleron said:
It's easily solved by saying no one's rights have priority over any others, so your right to religious belief that contraception is wrong doesn't extend to stopping others' right to access contraception.

Religious rights are not special, they are a specific case to freedom of thought and speech, but that doesn't mean freedom of action or a right to dictate how things are going to be.

The issue isn't that the Catholic Church is trying to ban insurance period for covering birth control, just that Catholic employers MUST provide it.  It goes from religious beliefs to property rights issues.  Do employers have a right to do what they want with their own property or not?

You can't take the easy way out by say no one's rights have priority over any other, because in this case, the issue requires one person's rights to have priority over another one.  And you ended up placing religious rights lower than other rights.

If one person has the right to use contraception it doesn't violate another persons right to not use contraception (because of religion or whatever). And the catholic church as employer is no person, so the concept of personal rights doesn't apply here.


Here is a question ...

Since everyone has the right to bear arms would it be reasonable for a government to mandate that an company has to provide their employee with a weapon if they can not afford one?



Mnementh said:
richardhutnik said:

Pretty much anything that isn't simply resolved comes about when you have rights in conflict.  When everything is merely framed in context of rights, there is a lack of yielding or seeing a larger collective good picture.  In short, you can't build an optimal ethical structure on rights alone or even one based mainly on rights.

Rights are conflicting, yes thats very old wisdom. But that doesn't mean you can't build an ethical structure based on rights, you only have to prioritize them.

You could say the same about rules: rules are conflicting with each other. Even if they come from a rules-system, like the 10 commandments from the bible: you can always build situations where these things are conflicting with each other. So - that's your point?

Part of the point.  The other part is that rights-based ethics systems end up with advocacy groups arguing for certain rights, and a conflict approach to end up resolving them.  You win the conflict and gain the ability to exercise your rights, at the expense of others.  Because of this arguing for rights, on one wants a certain right to have lower priority than another one.  The battle is over this right or that being superior.  Libertarians place Liberty above others (even to the extent of denying other rights exists).  You will see progressives placing the quality of life of individuals above others, including property rights.   Conservatives will place the right to preserve tradition above others.  Individuals who are capitalistic end up placing property rights above every other right.



richardhutnik said:
Mnementh said:
richardhutnik said:

Pretty much anything that isn't simply resolved comes about when you have rights in conflict.  When everything is merely framed in context of rights, there is a lack of yielding or seeing a larger collective good picture.  In short, you can't build an optimal ethical structure on rights alone or even one based mainly on rights.

Rights are conflicting, yes thats very old wisdom. But that doesn't mean you can't build an ethical structure based on rights, you only have to prioritize them.

You could say the same about rules: rules are conflicting with each other. Even if they come from a rules-system, like the 10 commandments from the bible: you can always build situations where these things are conflicting with each other. So - that's your point?

Part of the point.  The other part is that rights-based ethics systems end up with advocacy groups arguing for certain rights, and a conflict approach to end up resolving them.  You win the conflict and gain the ability to exercise your rights, at the expense of others.  Because of this arguing for rights, on one wants a certain right to have lower priority than another one.  The battle is over this right or that being superior.  Libertarians place Liberty above others (even to the extent of denying other rights exists).  You will see progressives placing the quality of life of individuals above others, including property rights.   Conservatives will place the right to preserve tradition above others.  Individuals who are capitalistic end up placing property rights above every other right.


I would like to see examples of people arguing for one negative right at the expense of another negative right ...



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HappySqurriel said:

Here is a question ...

Since everyone has the right to bear arms would it be reasonable for a government to mandate that an company has to provide their employee with a weapon if they can not afford one?

Has everyone the right to bear arms? Not here in europe. But take a society, where this right is given. No, that doesn't imply, that the government has to force the employees to arm you. But such a force wouldn't violate PERSONAL rights either (as companies and the like are not persons), so such a force is not against a rights-based-ethics.



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richardhutnik said:

Part of the point.  The other part is that rights-based ethics systems end up with advocacy groups arguing for certain rights, and a conflict approach to end up resolving them.  You win the conflict and gain the ability to exercise your rights, at the expense of others.  Because of this arguing for rights, on one wants a certain right to have lower priority than another one.  The battle is over this right or that being superior.  Libertarians place Liberty above others (even to the extent of denying other rights exists).  You will see progressives placing the quality of life of individuals above others, including property rights.   Conservatives will place the right to preserve tradition above others.  Individuals who are capitalistic end up placing property rights above every other right.

We have a common set of personal rights that are globally mostly accepted: the human rights charta. These rights are well-defined. Also these rights have mostly accepted priorities, so the right of life is higher prioritized than other rights for instance. But even without this priorities these rights seldom conflict.

And yes, nobody said rights would never conflict. I think you make up a strawmen here. Rights can conflict.

And as said, other ethical systems can conflict internally too. You could argue the same way, that living following the ten commandments is ollogical, because you can construct situations in which these rules conflict.

And sorry, many things you call rights, are definitely no personal rights. 'Conservatives will place the right to preserve tradition above others.' As long as it doesn't have any effect on others it's fine. But what you mean if you let them conflict is, that conservatives want to force their traditions on others. But at that point they are no longer in the area of PERSONAL rights. The right to preserve tradition is only as long a PERSONAL right, as it only involves you. So, if your tradition says, you have to tatoo yourself, it's a personal thing. If your tradition says to kill all people of different skin-color, than it's not a personal right.



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HappySqurriel said:
richardhutnik said:
Mnementh said:
richardhutnik said:

Pretty much anything that isn't simply resolved comes about when you have rights in conflict.  When everything is merely framed in context of rights, there is a lack of yielding or seeing a larger collective good picture.  In short, you can't build an optimal ethical structure on rights alone or even one based mainly on rights.

Rights are conflicting, yes thats very old wisdom. But that doesn't mean you can't build an ethical structure based on rights, you only have to prioritize them.

You could say the same about rules: rules are conflicting with each other. Even if they come from a rules-system, like the 10 commandments from the bible: you can always build situations where these things are conflicting with each other. So - that's your point?

Part of the point.  The other part is that rights-based ethics systems end up with advocacy groups arguing for certain rights, and a conflict approach to end up resolving them.  You win the conflict and gain the ability to exercise your rights, at the expense of others.  Because of this arguing for rights, on one wants a certain right to have lower priority than another one.  The battle is over this right or that being superior.  Libertarians place Liberty above others (even to the extent of denying other rights exists).  You will see progressives placing the quality of life of individuals above others, including property rights.   Conservatives will place the right to preserve tradition above others.  Individuals who are capitalistic end up placing property rights above every other right.


I would like to see examples of people arguing for one negative right at the expense of another negative right ...

One of the ultimate entities that would fully manifest the exercising of negative rights is a rock.  A rock sits there, minds its own business and doesn't do anything.  Of course, it is not living and has no needs and doesn't bother anyone.  But it is not alive.

Pretty much when you argue negative rights, you are saying that what you do doesn't infringe upon me in any way.  One area this can happen is in the area of freedom of speech and freedom to not listen.  In a common area, an individual can say they are free to say what they want, and not have this right infringed upon.  Another person says they have a right to not hear what someone says, or be offended.  They will claim to not hear something is their right, as much as the person who says they do have a right to speak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_rights



Mnementh said:

richardhutnik said:

Part of the point.  The other part is that rights-based ethics systems end up with advocacy groups arguing for certain rights, and a conflict approach to end up resolving them.  You win the conflict and gain the ability to exercise your rights, at the expense of others.  Because of this arguing for rights, on one wants a certain right to have lower priority than another one.  The battle is over this right or that being superior.  Libertarians place Liberty above others (even to the extent of denying other rights exists).  You will see progressives placing the quality of life of individuals above others, including property rights.   Conservatives will place the right to preserve tradition above others.  Individuals who are capitalistic end up placing property rights above every other right.

We have a common set of personal rights that are globally mostly accepted: the human rights charta. These rights are well-defined. Also these rights have mostly accepted priorities, so the right of life is higher prioritized than other rights for instance. But even without this priorities these rights seldom conflict.

And yes, nobody said rights would never conflict. I think you make up a strawmen here. Rights can conflict.

And as said, other ethical systems can conflict internally too. You could argue the same way, that living following the ten commandments is ollogical, because you can construct situations in which these rules conflict.

And sorry, many things you call rights, are definitely no personal rights. 'Conservatives will place the right to preserve tradition above others.' As long as it doesn't have any effect on others it's fine. But what you mean if you let them conflict is, that conservatives want to force their traditions on others. But at that point they are no longer in the area of PERSONAL rights. The right to preserve tradition is only as long a PERSONAL right, as it only involves you. So, if your tradition says, you have to tatoo yourself, it's a personal thing. If your tradition says to kill all people of different skin-color, than it's not a personal right.

If you look at the arguments in this thread, people would argue that only negative rights are rights, and they never conflict, because if everyone lived by the motto of being left alone, everyone would leave each other alone, and no one would have any rights violated.

In regards to conservatives, they will argue, for example, they have a right to raise their kids a certain way, and keep the public square clear of obscenity.  They say their rights as parents warrant this.  And there are others also.  They ARE personal rights.  For the conservative, values they have personally, also belong in society as a whole, because they are collectively shared.  Again, the value of tradition, ends up being elevated above the values that progressives have, for example.  A progressive, for example, would have little qualms going into a church and disrupting a religious service, for political or reasons of ethical concerns.



richardhutnik said:
HappySqurriel said:
richardhutnik said:
Mnementh said:
richardhutnik said:

Pretty much anything that isn't simply resolved comes about when you have rights in conflict.  When everything is merely framed in context of rights, there is a lack of yielding or seeing a larger collective good picture.  In short, you can't build an optimal ethical structure on rights alone or even one based mainly on rights.

Rights are conflicting, yes thats very old wisdom. But that doesn't mean you can't build an ethical structure based on rights, you only have to prioritize them.

You could say the same about rules: rules are conflicting with each other. Even if they come from a rules-system, like the 10 commandments from the bible: you can always build situations where these things are conflicting with each other. So - that's your point?

Part of the point.  The other part is that rights-based ethics systems end up with advocacy groups arguing for certain rights, and a conflict approach to end up resolving them.  You win the conflict and gain the ability to exercise your rights, at the expense of others.  Because of this arguing for rights, on one wants a certain right to have lower priority than another one.  The battle is over this right or that being superior.  Libertarians place Liberty above others (even to the extent of denying other rights exists).  You will see progressives placing the quality of life of individuals above others, including property rights.   Conservatives will place the right to preserve tradition above others.  Individuals who are capitalistic end up placing property rights above every other right.


I would like to see examples of people arguing for one negative right at the expense of another negative right ...

One of the ultimate entities that would fully manifest the exercising of negative rights is a rock.  A rock sits there, minds its own business and doesn't do anything.  Of course, it is not living and has no needs and doesn't bother anyone.  But it is not alive.

Pretty much when you argue negative rights, you are saying that what you do doesn't infringe upon me in any way.  One area this can happen is in the area of freedom of speech and freedom to not listen.  In a common area, an individual can say they are free to say what they want, and not have this right infringed upon.  Another person says they have a right to not hear what someone says, or be offended.  They will claim to not hear something is their right, as much as the person who says they do have a right to speak.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_rights

But the right not to be offended is not a legitimate right ... You are in control over your emotional reactions to what someone says or does, it is not up to someone else to protect your emotional reaction.

To use some examples, a racist may be offended by the presence of black people if a person has the right not to be offended then it is the obligation of the black person to resolve that situation; a homophobe may be offended by the discussion of homosexuality on television, and if a person has the right not to be offended then the television station should not be allowed to broadcast content that offends him.

Essentially, the right not to be offended is a poorly worded positive right; it is the right to have other people provide you with an emotional state of non-offence.