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Forums - Politics Discussion - Time for gun law reforms in the USA?

the2real4mafol on 06 August 2012
thranx said:
the2real4mafol said:
HappySqurriel said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
I disagree. Every citizen should have equal rights to be randomly killed by maniacs.

Seriously though, in my opinion guns should be banned altogether. Less people would die that way (I believe. Feel free to prove me wrong here), and I don't give a fuck about some ancient old 'rights'. Sure, removing guns from people (at the exchange of currency) would not be a simple task, but isn't it worth it even if only one single person is saved as a result?

But yeah, I don't live in America so obviously my opinion doesn't really matter. It's their country, not mine.

Baltimore has one of the strictest gun control laws in the United States, and one of the highest homicide rates in the country ...

If you can't prevent criminals from getting their hands on tons of drugs, what makes you believe that you can prevent criminals from getting their hands on tons of guns?

The only people gun control prevents from owning guns are law abiding, honest and mentally stable individuals; the people who are unlikely to use them to commit a crime with them.

is gun laws decided by state rather than government in america then?

state government is still the government, just not the federal government. Yes some laws are left up to the states to decide. The problem in america with guns comes down to criminals. The best way to lower current gun deaths would be to legalize drugs so gangs do not have access to so much money that they can finace the buying and using of weapons against each other. Not to try to restrict legal gun owners rights. You probably have to legalise prostitiution also as i am sure thats where the gangs would get their money after that.

Some statistics for you comparing the US crime rate  to the Netherlands, were gun laws are quite restrictive where you must be part of a sport or hunting club to obtain a license to get a gun AND most drugs are legal and prostitution is also legal.

 United StatesNetherlands
Prisoners 738 128
Murders 4.3 1.1
Assaults 756.9 268.9
Car thefts 387.9 233.6
Burglaries 710.0 555.5
Embezzlements 5.8 47.6
Frauds 125.7 120.0
Rapes 301.3 100.4
Robberies 138.8 113.5
Teen Suicide (15-24 years) 13.7 6.8

These are per 100000 people in both countries.

As, you can see prison population is much lower, due to a liberal drug policy

While, murders, assaults and bulgaries are lower due to a tougher gun law

and Rape is only 1/3 that of the US arguably because of legal prostitution

although, congress is probably to ignorant to do this, despite such success in the Netherlands



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'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

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Mr Khan on 06 August 2012
thranx said:
Mr Khan said:
thranx said:
Mr Khan said:
 

I've said before, these city-by-city bans won't work because of the loose laws within driving distance. It's easy to buy a gun legally elsewhere and simply drag it back into town. A nationwide ban would make it different.

Like the nationwide ban on drugs? Or would it be the same as now, criminals would buy their guns from the same people they buy their drugs. If you can't stop drugs from coming in what makes you think you can stop guns?

The key difference is that guns aren't addictive (though the way people in America act, you wouldn't think so), and if guns had the kind of markup drugs did, they would be much harder to buy in any event.

Nor is it a valid argument to say that "just because the criminals have them, we should get them." It's as egregious as the argument for nuclear deterrence, and more dangerous (because individuals are less stable than governments)

its a valid argument if you want to protect yourself from said criminals. The police can not be at your house to prevent a shooting, they are their after the fact.

Being addictive has nothing to do it. Any number of banned things are smuggled into the US addictive or not. If its banned there is a black market for it that no one controls but the criminals. Better to have them legal and have some control over it, than ban things and let the gangs have control of it. It didn't work with alcohol, it isn't working for drugs and it won't work for guns. Black markets just give criminals another avenue of income.

 

Why should guns be banned?

Because guns kill. That's all they're good for, and thus should only be in the hands of trained professionals. You don't need guns to defend yourself, or at least not lethally-enabled guns.

The evidence is there that these "law-abiding citizens" (and by god do i hate that term. It's as arrogant and fallacious as the anti-choice movement calling itself "pro-life") are more likely to injure themselves or a family member (accidentally or on purpose) than stop a crime.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

IIIIITHE1IIIII on 06 August 2012
lt_dan_27 said:

There is no way to judge that you idiot. You're right if we had a way to judge someone was about to become a criminal then we shouldn't give them a gun. But we also shouldn't let them have a knife, a car, things that can light on fire. Do you know why? BECAUSE YOU CAN KILL A PERSON WITH ANYTHING! It is also really easy to obtain guns illegally. God I am tired of people that think they have the answers. Even though THE1 has no solution. He says law abiding citizens should have guns unless they will become criminals? good luck figuring that one out

 

>User was moderated for this post [RH]


I never said/implied that anyone but the police should have guns, how did you reach that conclusion?

Also, there is no easier way to kill anyone than with a gun. It's just one pull with the trigger and it's done. The guilt comes afterwards, not during the kill.



thranx on 06 August 2012
the2real4mafol said:
thranx said:
the2real4mafol said:
HappySqurriel said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
I disagree. Every citizen should have equal rights to be randomly killed by maniacs.

Seriously though, in my opinion guns should be banned altogether. Less people would die that way (I believe. Feel free to prove me wrong here), and I don't give a fuck about some ancient old 'rights'. Sure, removing guns from people (at the exchange of currency) would not be a simple task, but isn't it worth it even if only one single person is saved as a result?

But yeah, I don't live in America so obviously my opinion doesn't really matter. It's their country, not mine.

Baltimore has one of the strictest gun control laws in the United States, and one of the highest homicide rates in the country ...

If you can't prevent criminals from getting their hands on tons of drugs, what makes you believe that you can prevent criminals from getting their hands on tons of guns?

The only people gun control prevents from owning guns are law abiding, honest and mentally stable individuals; the people who are unlikely to use them to commit a crime with them.

is gun laws decided by state rather than government in america then?

state government is still the government, just not the federal government. Yes some laws are left up to the states to decide. The problem in america with guns comes down to criminals. The best way to lower current gun deaths would be to legalize drugs so gangs do not have access to so much money that they can finace the buying and using of weapons against each other. Not to try to restrict legal gun owners rights. You probably have to legalise prostitiution also as i am sure thats where the gangs would get their money after that.

Some statistics for you comparing the US crime rate  to the Netherlands, were gun laws are quite restrictive where you must be part of a sport or hunting club to obtain a license to get a gun AND most drugs are legal and prostitution is also legal.

 United StatesNetherlands
Prisoners 738 128
Murders 4.3 1.1
Assaults 756.9 268.9
Car thefts 387.9 233.6
Burglaries 710.0 555.5
Embezzlements 5.8 47.6
Frauds 125.7 120.0
Rapes 301.3 100.4
Robberies 138.8 113.5
Teen Suicide (15-24 years) 13.7 6.8

These are per 100000 people in both countries.

As, you can see prison population is much lower, due to a liberal drug policy

While, murders, assaults and bulgaries are lower due to a tougher gun law

and Rape is only 1/3 that of the US arguably because of legal prostitution

although, congress is probably to ignorant to do this, despite such success in the Netherlands


Please show me the cities in the netherlands that have the gang problems of LA, St. Louis, Chicago, New York, San Diego, any big city in the united states. Ntherlands is not comparable to the US in the kind of inner city crime problems, nor massive drug trades, and smuggling of illegal people in.  I dont fear gun violence becuase i dont live in a big city, but i have driven through some bad parts of la and you bet i would of felt much safer with a gun.

Better to compare similar states with varying gun laws. But even than, gun death is a result of the lack of morals in many americans and the lack of a good cohesive society. Pepople have to many differences in the United states, until that is solved there will be many conflicts. Wether guns are used, or knives, or bats, or what ever the underlying problems for the violence are there.



the2real4mafol on 06 August 2012
lt_dan_27 said:

There is no way to judge that you idiot. You're right if we had a way to judge someone was about to become a criminal then we shouldn't give them a gun. But we also shouldn't let them have a knife, a car, things that can light on fire. Do you know why? BECAUSE YOU CAN KILL A PERSON WITH ANYTHING! It is also really easy to obtain guns illegally. God I am tired of people that think they have the answers. Even though THE1 has no solution. He says law abiding citizens should have guns unless they will become criminals? good luck figuring that one out

 

>User was moderated for this post [RH]

Yes you can kill someone with a knife, a car, a rock etc. but the difference is you can only kill a couple but with an MG you could wipe out all the witnesses, they could be 1000's of people, but you could kill them all very quickly, wars in the last century proved this.

but the rest of your post does have a fair point, it wouldn't be easy to enforce

This is why debating is good for all of us, we all learn something new



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

Around the Network
Viper1 on 06 August 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Viper1 said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:


I obviously don't expect it to stop criminals from getting their hands on guns. What I do expect is for law abiding citizens to not become criminals through guns. Before criminals are criminals, they are law abiding citizens. You can't tell a man who plan to become a criminal in the future from a man who plan to be law abiding, but what they have in common is equal access to guns.

Do you know what criminals want more than anything?

Gun laws that keep guns out of the hands of law biding citizens.

 

Go ahead, make their day.


I thought there was a police force in the US?

...

So you think that the very moment guns become illegal, criminals will start robbing from people and their properties more than ever? That they will no longer fear commiting crimes just because the victims won't shoot them?

You can think again. And like I said, this reform's main purpose would not be to stop criminals from commiting crimes. A criminal already has commited crimes and isn't legally able to bear arms in the first place. This reform's main purpose would be to make it more difficult for future criminals to cary out their will. Less potential criminals is always a good thing.

Banning the legal purchase of guns will not stop the illegal acquisition of guns.

 

Hell, our own government provides them.



The rEVOLution is not being televised

the2real4mafol on 06 August 2012
thranx said:
the2real4mafol said:
thranx said:
the2real4mafol said:
HappySqurriel said:
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
I disagree. Every citizen should have equal rights to be randomly killed by maniacs.

Seriously though, in my opinion guns should be banned altogether. Less people would die that way (I believe. Feel free to prove me wrong here), and I don't give a fuck about some ancient old 'rights'. Sure, removing guns from people (at the exchange of currency) would not be a simple task, but isn't it worth it even if only one single person is saved as a result?

But yeah, I don't live in America so obviously my opinion doesn't really matter. It's their country, not mine.

Baltimore has one of the strictest gun control laws in the United States, and one of the highest homicide rates in the country ...

If you can't prevent criminals from getting their hands on tons of drugs, what makes you believe that you can prevent criminals from getting their hands on tons of guns?

The only people gun control prevents from owning guns are law abiding, honest and mentally stable individuals; the people who are unlikely to use them to commit a crime with them.

is gun laws decided by state rather than government in america then?

state government is still the government, just not the federal government. Yes some laws are left up to the states to decide. The problem in america with guns comes down to criminals. The best way to lower current gun deaths would be to legalize drugs so gangs do not have access to so much money that they can finace the buying and using of weapons against each other. Not to try to restrict legal gun owners rights. You probably have to legalise prostitiution also as i am sure thats where the gangs would get their money after that.

Some statistics for you comparing the US crime rate  to the Netherlands, were gun laws are quite restrictive where you must be part of a sport or hunting club to obtain a license to get a gun AND most drugs are legal and prostitution is also legal.

 United StatesNetherlands
Prisoners 738 128
Murders 4.3 1.1
Assaults 756.9 268.9
Car thefts 387.9 233.6
Burglaries 710.0 555.5
Embezzlements 5.8 47.6
Frauds 125.7 120.0
Rapes 301.3 100.4
Robberies 138.8 113.5
Teen Suicide (15-24 years) 13.7 6.8

These are per 100000 people in both countries.

As, you can see prison population is much lower, due to a liberal drug policy

While, murders, assaults and bulgaries are lower due to a tougher gun law

and Rape is only 1/3 that of the US arguably because of legal prostitution

although, congress is probably to ignorant to do this, despite such success in the Netherlands


Please show me the cities in the netherlands that have the gang problems of LA, St. Louis, Chicago, New York, San Diego, any big city in the united states. Ntherlands is not comparable to the US in the kind of inner city crime problems, nor massive drug trades, and smuggling of illegal people in.  I dont fear gun violence becuase i dont live in a big city, but i have driven through some bad parts of la and you bet i would of felt much safer with a gun.

Better to compare similar states with varying gun laws. But even than, gun death is a result of the lack of morals in many americans and the lack of a good cohesive society. Pepople have to many differences in the United states, until that is solved there will be many conflicts. Wether guns are used, or knives, or bats, or what ever the underlying problems for the violence are there.

fair point but those gang problems exist for different reasons, they exploit the black market (mostly drugs) because it's illegal, they test the government like a kid does to their parents, they see what they can get away with. In those big cities, it is ignored, the people get on with it. The Netherlands doesn't have drugtrades like new york or los angeles because drugs are legal, and they can't rely on prostitution either because that's legal there too. so very few gangs reside in the Netherlands, it might just happen in America if drugs were legal there too (in every state).



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

IIIIITHE1IIIII on 06 August 2012
Viper1 said:

Banning the legal purchase of guns will not stop the illegal acquisition of guns.

 

Hell, our own government provides them.


If your police really can't protect you while your government provides criminals with illegal weapons I can understand why people want to bear arms.

 

God bless America



the2real4mafol on 06 August 2012

Really, only the army and specialized police forces should have guns. I don't see why citizens need guns or even the standard police forces.



Xbox One, PS4 and Switch (+ Many Retro Consoles)

'When the people are being beaten with a stick, they are not much happier if it is called the people's stick'- Mikhail Bakunin

Prediction: Switch will sell better than Wii U Lifetime Sales by Jan 1st 2018

Viper1 on 06 August 2012
IIIIITHE1IIIII said:
Viper1 said:

Banning the legal purchase of guns will not stop the illegal acquisition of guns.

 

Hell, our own government provides them.


If your police really can't protect you while your government provides criminals with illegal weapons I can understand why people want to bear arms.

 

God bless America

Did you know that the police are not legally obligated to protect you?   There have been court cases on this and it has been upheld every single time that the police have no obligation to actually protect you.  None.

And after what is happening in Anaheim, I'd rather call the criminals to protect me from the cops.



The rEVOLution is not being televised