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Forums - General - Mating Turtles Fossilized

If you're wondering, there is a strange dillema in the world of fossilization. Have a look. :) Keep in mind this is written from a creationist perspective. No trolling plox, this is not about science versus religion, it's about observation and explanations. Make your own conclusions.

Cheers.

Turtles fossilized while mating!

by David Catchpoole

 

Published: 21 June 2012 (GMT+10)

‘Excitement’ doesn’t even begin to describe it. The news media heralded the ‘mating turtles’ fossils even before theBiology Letters research paper1 was officially available online. The famous fossil-filled shale deposits at the Messel Pit in Germany have yielded multiple fossil treasures with great fanfare before. But this announcement of the world’s first-ever discovery of copulating vertebrates fossilized “in flagrante delicto” (as bothNature journal2 and Science magazine3put it) was a news editor’s dream.4 Even the dour (?) BBC didn’t hold back, headlining: “Turtles fossilised in sex embrace”.5

Note that it wasn’t just one aquatic turtle pair that had been found, but nine of them.6

From an evolutionary perspective, one can understand the scientists’ and media’s animation. That’s because, from their paradigm, it’s remarkable that any such fossils would be found—let alone nine. As lead researcher Walter Joyce, a fossil turtle expert at the University of Tübingen in Germany, mused, “there really is no reason to enter the fossil record while you are mating.”6

He’s right—but that’s if the traditional evolutionary millions-of-years uniformitarian paradigm is correct. As Joyce told LiveScience, “the chances of both partners dying while mating are extremely low, and the chances of both partners being preserved as fossils afterward even lower.”4 (To Discovery News Joyce said that “the chances of both partners dying at the same time is highly unlikely and the chances of both partners being preserved afterwards even less likely.”6 (Emphasis added.)

On the other hand, as we’ve pointed out on this website and in our other published works for many years, the evidence makes much better sense in light of the Bible’s account of history. These nine pairs of fossilized turtles are much better understood as a legacy of rapid burial in the global Flood of Noah’s day.

First, note their having been described as very well preserved: “incredible fossil specimens”,6 “truly exceptional fossils”,4 just like all the other “thousands of exquisitely preserved fossil creatures pulled from Messel Pit”5—fossils renowned for being “extraordinarily well preserved … [e.g.] insects and feathers that still have hints of their original colors.”3

‘There really is no reason to enter the fossil record while you are mating.’—Paleontologist Walter Joyce, University of Tübingen, Germany, 20 June 2012.

Second, note that these turtles, indentified as Allaeochelys crassesculpta, in the words of lead researcher Walter Joyce “would have looked very similar to their closest living relative, the pig-nosed turtle (Carettochelys insculpta) from New Guinea and Australia, just much smaller.”4 That is precisely what we wrote earlier in this Creation magazine article about turtles. In other words, despite supposedly 47 million years having elapsed since the fossilization of these turtle pairs,7 they’re just the same as turtles today—no evolution. In fact, the actual time elapsed since these turtles were rapidly buried under water-borne sediment is only about 4,500 years—i.e. dating from the time of the Genesis Flood.

Third, despite paleontologists’ protestations that “it is rare for any animal to die and be fossilized while engaged in a behavior”,6 their own documentation is replete with such examples. E.g., “fish that choked on large prey items and were later found fossilized in that moment. Certain dinosaurs died fighting or while brooding over their nests.”6

No wonder that paleontologists have increasingly moved away from true uniformitarianism (‘the present is the key to the past’), and begun invoking more catastrophic scenarios. (Under no circumstances, however, must it be allowed to resemble the worldwide Genesis Flood.)

In the case of these turtles, the scenario favoured by Joyce and his colleagues is that the turtles were preserved in a volcanic lake. “The mating turtles tell us that the surface waters of Messel Lake were hospitable enough to allow turtles to live and mate, but that animals would die accidentally when they sank during mating into relatively shallow, poisonous subsurface layers,” said Joyce.2 “Many animals enter a trance-like state when mating or laying eggs, and it is possible that these turtles simply did not notice that they were entering poisonous waters before it was too late.”2

That’s beautifully creative storytelling, but there’s a fatal flaw in the story, as Nature reported:

“Edwin Cadena, a doctoral student in palaeontology at North Carolina State University in Raleigh, agrees that the study shows ‘strong evidence to consider this the first case of coupling captured in the fossil record of vertebrates’. More controversial, he says, is the interpretation of what the Messel lake was like. The notion of a stratified lake works as an explanation for the turtles’ fate, Cadena says, ‘but not so well for other fossils found at Messel, for example bats or birds or even other small mammals’. If the upper layers of the lake were inhabitable, Cadena asks, then what caused the death of airborne and terrestrial animals? The turtles are just part of an ongoing fossil mystery.”2

Actually, it doesn’t even work that well for the turtles, i.e. if there were no other fossils found at Messel. One would have to believe not only that the same mysterious set of events befell all nine of these allegedly entranced turtle couples, but that all of them were later mysteriously protected from decay and predation.

The ‘ongoing fossil mystery’ is, however, much easier to explain when one views Genesis as straightforward history. The evidence for the year-long planetary cataclysm it describes is all around us and under our feet. The best explanation for not only these turtles, but the many other beautifully preserved creatures in the Messel Shale Pit, is rapid burial in one of the many catastrophic sedimentary events occurring during that Genesis Flood. What a pity that so many either don’t know, or won’t know.



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*Doesn't read creationist propaganda article*

That's pretty awesome. Mating pairs of turtles being fossilized... That sort of death is the death 98% of men dream of (without the fossilization part...)



wfz said:
*Doesn't read creationist propaganda article*

That's pretty awesome. Mating pairs of turtles being fossilized... That sort of death is the death 98% of men dream of (without the fossilization part...)

Yup, there were 9 of them in the same find. They are having a very hard time explaining it from an evolutionary standpoint.

Since I need to censor it for you, here's part of the article quoted from a non-creationist source (I know, I shouldn't but it's as far as some of us are ready to go):

As Joyce told LiveScience, “the chances of both partners dying while mating are extremely low, and the chances of both partners being preserved as fossils afterward even lower.”4 (To Discovery News Joyce said that “the chances of both partners dying at the same time is highly unlikely and the chances of both partners being preserved afterwards even less likely.”6 (Emphasis added.)

Some points from the article you missed, censored so you can read it:

. The article offers the alternative of rapid burial due to catastrophic events.

. The turtles look identical to modern-day turtles (yes possible in an evolutionary model but to me unlikely within the evolutionary model due to ever-present odds of mutation even to the smallest degree).



It would especially be interesting to determine breeding season and see if this lines up with the period of the year where the flood took place. :B



lol I don't see how this find of a bunch of dead mating turtles in any way is for or against evolution. That's just stupid. (yes I read the article)

Of course there was some event that killed a bunch of them at the same time and it must have been mating season. But to use this to prove/disprove any theories is just dumb fanboy-like behavior.

lol at this having anything to do with any biblical story lol (I am Muslim and do think a large flood of some type happened at some point).



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superchunk said:
lol I don't see how this find of a bunch of dead mating turtles in any way is for or against evolution. That's just stupid. (yes I read the article)

Of course there was some event that killed a bunch of them at the same time and it must have been mating season. But to use this to prove/disprove any theories is just dumb fanboy-like behavior.

lol at this having anything to do with any biblical story lol (I am Muslim and do think a large flood of some type happened at some point).

He's just saying, that the scientific community is having a difficult time explaining it because in the scientific community at present fossilization is usually during a process of non instant death (like a sick animal dying). To involve cataclysm is a difficult step for the community because the flood proponents hold that position.

It's just human nature that's all.

The explanations are challenged by regular folks (non-religious), like the quotes show at the end of the article. The fossils that display actions (like eating and mating) pose an ongoing problem in the question of "how did it happen?".



happydolphin said:
superchunk said:
lol I don't see how this find of a bunch of dead mating turtles in any way is for or against evolution. That's just stupid. (yes I read the article)

Of course there was some event that killed a bunch of them at the same time and it must have been mating season. But to use this to prove/disprove any theories is just dumb fanboy-like behavior.

lol at this having anything to do with any biblical story lol (I am Muslim and do think a large flood of some type happened at some point).

He's just saying, that the scientific community is having a difficult time explaining it because in the scientific community at present fossilization is usually during a process of non instant death (like a sick animal dying). To involve cataclysm is a difficult step for the community because the flood proponents hold that position.

It's just human nature that's all.

The explanations are challenged by regular folks (non-religious), like the quotes show at the end of the article. The fossils that display actions (like eating and mating) pose an ongoing problem in the question of "how did it happen?".

bullshit.

I read about these turtles a week ago and the scientific article said specifically that they all new it had to be a quick event and I know I've read about other fossilization fields with the same cause.

I think the article author is just grasping and straws and wrote a biased article that is starting with false information.



superchunk said:
happydolphin said:
superchunk said:
lol I don't see how this find of a bunch of dead mating turtles in any way is for or against evolution. That's just stupid. (yes I read the article)

Of course there was some event that killed a bunch of them at the same time and it must have been mating season. But to use this to prove/disprove any theories is just dumb fanboy-like behavior.

lol at this having anything to do with any biblical story lol (I am Muslim and do think a large flood of some type happened at some point).

He's just saying, that the scientific community is having a difficult time explaining it because in the scientific community at present fossilization is usually during a process of non instant death (like a sick animal dying). To involve cataclysm is a difficult step for the community because the flood proponents hold that position.

It's just human nature that's all.

The explanations are challenged by regular folks (non-religious), like the quotes show at the end of the article. The fossils that display actions (like eating and mating) pose an ongoing problem in the question of "how did it happen?".

bullshit.

I read about these turtles a week ago and the scientific article said specifically that they all new it had to be a quick event and I know I've read about other fossilization fields with the same cause.

I think the article author is just grasping and straws and wrote a biased article that is starting with false information.

Dude, relax. If I'm wrong just say so, no need to use the big words.

I understood it from the quote he gave, he never said so himself...

As Joyce told LiveScience, “the chances of both partners dying while mating are extremely low, and the chances of both partners being preserved as fossils afterward even lower.”4 (To Discovery News Joyce said that “the chances of both partners dying at the same time is highly unlikely and the chances of both partners being preserved afterwards even less likely.”6 (Emphasis added.)

and then:

‘There really is no reason to enter the fossil record while you are mating.’—Paleontologist Walter Joyce, University of Tübingen, Germany, 20 June 2012.

The scientific explanations afterwards account for quick event fossilization iiuc:

In the case of these turtles, the scenario favoured by Joyce and his colleagues is that the turtles were preserved in a volcanic lake. “The mating turtles tell us that the surface waters of Messel Lake were hospitable enough to allow turtles to live and mate, but that animals would die accidentally when they sank during mating into relatively shallow, poisonous subsurface layers,” said Joyce.2 “Many animals enter a trance-like state when mating or laying eggs, and it is possible that these turtles simply did not notice that they were entering poisonous waters before it was too late.”2

But then, why not the possibility of the usual cementation that is explained by the proponents of the flood? That's kind of a more fanboyish approach there I'd think, to refuse an option because it's too much like one position that some don't agree with.



Good to know that turtles were mating in the time of the Ancient Egyptians



 Been away for a bit, but sneaking back in.

Gaming on: PS4, PC, 3DS. Got a Switch! Mainly to play Smash

Well, I remember a documentary that I watched a couple of years ago where a guy became famous for discovering the graves of many biblical characters (I won't bother checking for their English names :), but he then much, much later turned out to be a fraud. Apparently, he had created all of his findings and treated them with some weird fluids that made them appear as if they were thousands of years old.

I'm not saying that the same thing has happened here, just that you need to be very careful with findings with supposed biblical connections.