HD is a gimmick, thats why is used as a selling point, games would have been exactly the same without it...its just a selling point for superficial people...
also you said HD was fresh, its good that you accept you were wrong there...;)

A fair post. Savior for Microsoft is a bit much though Haha You have to give them credit for aggressive marketing of some core games and their push for online, it all paid off. Kinect is a cash-maker, but wasn't necessary for them since they were doing pretty well in the core genre regardless.

In your second para you bind motion controls to casual, but it isn't a necessity. It's a matter of fact that the casuals embraced motion controls only because the core rejected them. The double standards became clearer when Sony released the Move and core gamers began taking interest in the tech, and embraced it as a value add since they saw the potential for Sony's IPs using it. I'm just glad we're splitting truths apart to see where things went wrong, and if ultimately the rejection of the wiimote was for reasons greater than the technology's intrinsic appeal, but that it was used to attract a casual audience, and that it was branded Nintendo (let's be honest).

Ultimately the casuals will have fueled the motion controls, but I would not be surprised if down the line core gamers will end up using them despite all the gen7 backlash.

Also, you use the term "casual controls", but imho the terminology, just being totally honest, is a product of bias. There is no reason to call motion controls casual unless a PoV was limiting itself to the use of motion controls in casual experiences. Truth is, motion controls were used in games like Time Crisis (Shake to reload), and other revolver arcade games where you have to bend over to take cover much before even the eyetoy.

Hopefully one day we'll be able to look at this in full objectivity, but since gen7 is yet at its twilight and the Wii has been a source of much controversy, the PoVs are still not yet over it enough to reach that point, imho.

HD is not a gimmick, its not novel device with casual appeal. It existed on PC before it did on consoles. Stop arguing just to argue please.

But HD falls into the definition of a gimmick you provided...it was novel on consoles, you said it was fresh, please stop contradicting yourself

also it has casual appeal because it atracts people not very into gaming with the meme "this is the best looking damn thing money can buy"

Yes but it was marketed towards the core community and was also in line with the natural evolution of gaming tech (i.e. graphics).

Motion controls are a disruptive evolution, in that it isn't a no-brainer approach, and in that sense S.T.A.G.E. is correct.

Regardless, being the natural course of action doesn't make one more legitimate than another, imho.

The casuals did not embrace motion controls because the core rejected them. The casuals don't know what the core is and they buy it for the novelty that it is, especially in America. If you have the American media in the palm of your hands the dollars will soon be in your pocket. The reason people call motion controls casual is in essence because of the fact that the most of the development for such devices haven't been mastered completely for a core experience whether it be with the  Wiimote or the Move has the potential but has very few games to support it. The Kinect is just the worst example with Microsoft selling it far before the tech gets to mature. Microsoft never created it, they bought it so they cannot gauge its value to the core, but as they say in America "bullshit walks".

Primarily, complex controls scare off people, especially todays games which have a thirteen to sixteen button learning curve. Nintendo provided me with the building blocks as a child and I played games with my mother and father and cousins. It's always been Nintendo...my family shies away from my Playstation and they've already asked me if Kinect is in the cards for my Xbox. I played Nintendo until I moved on to new experiences, new characters with in depth stories and reason to immerse myself in them. Nintendo failed to give me this unless we're talking Samus. 

It's just like how Nintendo was considered a toy by the media until Sony and  Microsoft came into the gaming industry. Sony and Microsoft definitely grabbed the older demographic who grew up with Nintendo holding onto mostly gamers from teens to fourties.

Where? Who said that High Definition is a gimmick? High definition is the standard of today. It's called a natural progression. Soon we will be watching games at  120 FPS 60 frames per eye. Are high definition televisions a gimmick? No. Is high graphics on PC a gimmick? No. Is the use of 3D in the movies a gimmick? YES! 

I don't think this viewpoint really works. What games did you play as a child? Reason I ask is that all of Super Mario Bros., Tetris, Zelda, Metroid, Kid Icarus, Punch Out!! were all experiences that catered to a younger teenager, and the TV marketing suited that.

The two-button layout of Nintendo stems from most arcade configurations iirc, and it was Nintendo that delivered 4 more buttons, 2 shoulder buttons and x & y on the SNES. The genesis released 4 extra face buttons, so Nintendo was in the game. I don't see how Nintendo is an entry-level console at this point. With the N64, things got more complex, even more complex than the playstation's 1st SNES-esque controller. All the main games on the Nintendo consoles were for older teens, from 1st party to 3rd party. It's only come the SNES that the 1st party games started to be considered less adult due to competition from Sega and Nintendo taking a more vibrant colors direction (it was the strength of the SNES over the Genesis so they were probs trying to take advantage of that).

Nintendo has always been a family console, but never can you say skilled gamers were not playing on the NES. I'm not sure how old you are, but my older brothers and cousins were very serious about their games, and very good at them. Having more buttons may make things more complex at first, but some of the most challenging games only use two buttons (Donkey Kong arcade is considered one of the most difficult games of all time).

Also, Nintendo had all the buttons you expected with the Cube (1 button less but that's not important at all, it was a design choice and they considered that so many buttons were not needed ,a bad choice imho but it has little to do with complexity iiuc). When Nintendo chose to go with the Wii, they ultimately made a choice that would distance them from traditional gaming as a whole. But you can't take that and project back over the history of Nintendo, that's revisionism.

@1st para. I didn't say casuals adopted motion controls because the core didn't. I was saying the core didn't adopt them (from Nintendo) because they were aimed at another audience, and because they were branded Nintendo, an image most traditional non-Nintendo gamers prefer distance themselves from. With that, to say motion controls are casual is a falsehood, imho. If that's not what you meant, it's my bad I misread. But that's what was written, so correct me if I misunderstood.

you guys do realise this is a forum?

if you want to debate 10 pages of what a gimmick is go somewhere else.

I come here to read relevant posts.


on a side note to STAGE:
motion controls are a natrual progression too.

your logic doesnt make sense to me buddy...so if the 3D and motion controls become the standard, are they going to be considered as hardcore and not gimmicky?
HD is the selling point, if its the selling point used to atract people to buy the product, that perfectly fits into the definition you provided...