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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Devs: Next Xbox easiest to work with, Wii U "most challenging"

VGKing said:
RolStoppable said:
It's going to be a great E3.


That's just your opinion.

The truth is that this E3 will be the worst yet. No Apple/Zynga or Facebook? E3 is as irrelevant as ever.



Why do you point out that it's his opinion. It's of course already accepted as his opinion. Did he imply that he was speaking everyone's opinion? Did he imply that he was stating a fact? No to both.

Also, relevance =/= quality. It's ironic that you say Rol's words are 'just' opinions, yet go on to say that your opinion is the 'truth'.

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BlkPaladin said:

Sort of but not really. Let's use an RPG for an exaple. When setting up the display for a game you can set up a number of different canvases to send the information to. So the inventory screen would be on one and the game on another. In normal games you would dump the inventory canvas into reserve memory until need. With the Wii U you would have it update but by using threading you can throattle down the update of the second canvas so it doesn't use as much memory. So if it is an inventory screen ala LoZ you can have it update when either the client or the game uses it. (A new item added, changing) So the only time the contoller is using resources is when it updatesy. For things like FPS radar HUD it would be updated a little more fequently then a stationary, but not as often as the main screen.

The thing is when the TV is being used the information displayed on the controllers will never be graphically intensive. Unless you are doing some parascope type stuff with the controller screen. But at that time you can troatle down the updates to the main screen to give extra resources to the controller.

The problem here is what most developers complained about the PSP vs the DS. It is hard to make games that make use of "all" the bells and whistles of the tech the console has. The thing is you don't have to.

 

Sorry if this wasn't word correctly I just got off of work and didn't have enough sleep yesterday so my thinking is a little more abstract than it usually is.

An inventory is a dynamic list (array), either stored in a data file or memory when in use.  An array consumes memory depending upon how large it is.  The more items in the list, the more memory consumed.  So, if the Wii U controller is displaying the inventory screen, it is using up resources of the console.  From everything I understand, the Wii U is just a monitor.  A monitor is a dumb display, as opposed to a smart display which has some type of computational ability.  The Wii U tablet controller isn't streamed raw data, it's streamed graphical data much like WI-FI connected TVs.  So all the processing power and memory used to generate that information (the inventory list) is being used up on the console.  That's expensive.  Using the tablet controller will take away resources that could otherwise be used by the game to make it play or function better.

If you don't think memory is important, sit down with PS3 Skyrim players about any bugs they've encountered with that game after about 40 hours of game play.  That bug has to do with just maintaining a laundry list like an inventory too, but it can cripple the game play once you've encountered the right series of quests, skills, and magical powers.  That has nothing to even do with screen presentation, just what impact your character has on the given situation in the game.  And you think it's no skin off of someones back to keep real-time an inventory or some other display?  Anything displayed in real-time will take resources.  Will an inventory be CPU intensive as say a periscope type feature?  No, but it will require both system and graphic memory to maintain, GPU time slices to keep the display fresh, and occasionally  CPU time when the inventory is used or updated (items added or deleted).  For the most part, not having an inventory on the tablet would reduce the amount of resources used for it significantly.  The inventory wouldn't have to be persistently in memory, it a function would be activated to add or remove items to the file, but that would only ever be called when adding, removing, or using an item.  A far more conservative approach to resource management than displaying something that might get updated every ten to 15 minutes of game play. 

And no, don't kid yourself, you didn't just come up with a bad example of how to use the tablet display.  It's a good example, one I myself used earlier in a reference to Fallout and the Pip-Boy.  That doesn't mean it isn't resource intensive and game developers don't have to seriously consider whether for their game and the resources the game needs that it's appropriate to throw resources away to a game function that may not add value to the game play, but is just a neat use of the technology.

If, for example Bethesda's recent update to Skyrim to include Kinect voice commands meant the overall game suffered as a result, would it have been wise to add them and use that feature?  No, of course not. 

I'm not saying nor implying developers won't take advantage of the Wii U hardware, I'm saying they have to consider how they take advantage of it seriously and whether it helps, harms, or hinders the game play. 



Adinnieken said:
BlkPaladin said:

Sort of but not really. Let's use an RPG for an exaple. When setting up the display for a game you can set up a number of different canvases to send the information to. So the inventory screen would be on one and the game on another. In normal games you would dump the inventory canvas into reserve memory until need. With the Wii U you would have it update but by using threading you can throattle down the update of the second canvas so it doesn't use as much memory. So if it is an inventory screen ala LoZ you can have it update when either the client or the game uses it. (A new item added, changing) So the only time the contoller is using resources is when it updatesy. For things like FPS radar HUD it would be updated a little more fequently then a stationary, but not as often as the main screen.

The thing is when the TV is being used the information displayed on the controllers will never be graphically intensive. Unless you are doing some parascope type stuff with the controller screen. But at that time you can troatle down the updates to the main screen to give extra resources to the controller.

The problem here is what most developers complained about the PSP vs the DS. It is hard to make games that make use of "all" the bells and whistles of the tech the console has. The thing is you don't have to.

 

Sorry if this wasn't word correctly I just got off of work and didn't have enough sleep yesterday so my thinking is a little more abstract than it usually is.

An inventory is a dynamic list (array), either stored in a data file or memory when in use.  An array consumes memory depending upon how large it is.  The more items in the list, the more memory consumed.  So, if the Wii U controller is displaying the inventory screen, it is using up resources of the console.  From everything I understand, the Wii U is just a monitor.  A monitor is a dumb display, as opposed to a smart display which has some type of computational ability.  The Wii U tablet controller isn't streamed raw data, it's streamed graphical data much like WI-FI connected TVs.  So all the processing power and memory used to generate that information (the inventory list) is being used up on the console.  That's expensive.  Using the tablet controller will take away resources that could otherwise be used by the game to make it play or function better.

If you don't think memory is important, sit down with PS3 Skyrim players about any bugs they've encountered with that game after about 40 hours of game play.  That bug has to do with just maintaining a laundry list like an inventory too, but it can cripple the game play once you've encountered the right series of quests, skills, and magical powers.  That has nothing to even do with screen presentation, just what impact your character has on the given situation in the game.  And you think it's no skin off of someones back to keep real-time an inventory or some other display?  Anything displayed in real-time will take resources.  Will an inventory be CPU intensive as say a periscope type feature?  No, but it will require both system and graphic memory to maintain, GPU time slices to keep the display fresh, and occasionally  CPU time when the inventory is used or updated (items added or deleted).  For the most part, not having an inventory on the tablet would reduce the amount of resources used for it significantly.  The inventory wouldn't have to be persistently in memory, it a function would be activated to add or remove items to the file, but that would only ever be called when adding, removing, or using an item.  A far more conservative approach to resource management than displaying something that might get updated every ten to 15 minutes of game play. 

And no, don't kid yourself, you didn't just come up with a bad example of how to use the tablet display.  It's a good example, one I myself used earlier in a reference to Fallout and the Pip-Boy.  That doesn't mean it isn't resource intensive and game developers don't have to seriously consider whether for their game and the resources the game needs that it's appropriate to throw resources away to a game function that may not add value to the game play, but is just a neat use of the technology.

If, for example Bethesda's recent update to Skyrim to include Kinect voice commands meant the overall game suffered as a result, would it have been wise to add them and use that feature?  No, of course not. 

I'm not saying nor implying developers won't take advantage of the Wii U hardware, I'm saying they have to consider how they take advantage of it seriously and whether it helps, harms, or hinders the game play. 

I was mostly talking about the graphics resources. But yea it is an array but it really doesn't need to be dynamic is can also be a static array that takes up a set amount of memory. Depending on how many items there are depends on whether you use a dynamic or static array. Even with arrays you don't always need it to be using system RAM/resources unless it is being used/updated. You can always dump it into storage depending on what you want to be doing. But we are getting a little technical and as said. I haven't slept yet in about 28 hours... I wish the bank would open. So I can get home and bed...



pezus said:
Argh_College said:
Obvious that Microsoft console will be the easiest to work for and the most powerfull, its microsft after all they are a software company if their console was the most difficult to program then something was very wrong.

Why is this obvious? Why wasn't 360 the most powerful then?

because they needed to come out first to gain market share... that´s the only reason, yet multi are 98% better on 360 unlike last gen where Xbox 1 was miles better.



After reading the ign article I am sure that microsofts marketing machine has start with this



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crissindahouse said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
YukanaSenix said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
It's inevitable that Durango is the easiest to develop for, it's being made by a company that has specialized in developing software on PCs for decades. Also, DX11.

Sony can try their hardest, and from what I've heard about developing for PSV, making games for Orbis won't be anywhere near as hard as conquering th3 c3ll was.

As for the Wii U? I'm sure the hardware itself isn't terribly difficult to program for, it's just as others have said, making games that take advantage of the tablet controller is probably a little difficult and time consuming.


To be honest - Just fire all those noob developers,build a university and hire the Naughty Dog,Guerilla,Santa Monica Studio and so on Developers as teachers.

They showed with every game how much superior PS3 Exclusives can be compared to 360 Games.

There are many excellent first party 360 games, although I do think overall PS3's first party is better, they certainly don't dominate and 360's lineup isn't bad at all. 


The Hardware of the PS3 is easy to understand if you have the skill....Most Developers are just bad and don't understand their job.

It's not that developers are bad at their job, it's that they are not used to the PS3s complex architecture and it is very time-consuming to truly optimize for the system, time that most developers don't have. You see more first party devs optimizing for the cell because they have 2 or 3 years to put 1 game on 1 platform, third parties have 2 or 3 years to put 1 game on usually around 3 platforms.

Gonna ignore the rest..



and first party should get much better tools and always the best and newest informations directly from sony about new ways to program for that thing. it is the hardest to develop for, everyone should know that and this costs money. noone will put much more effort in a game to get graphics like uncharted if it will cost too much. only first party studios will do this.


Sony put a lot of work into sharing graphical technologies and such.  Obviously the ICE team in Naughty Dog have a lot to do with it in the USA, but SCE Studio Liverpool are pretty good at pushing the graphical boat out too, and I presume their Xdev team in Europe will help the other European Sony developers (and third parties) push the hardware a bit further.



Devs not quite ready to talk about Sony's platform yet.



Dodece said:

All the reasons you shit on were justifiable ones that were given at the time. Your problem isn't that they are wrong, but that they didn't serve your purposes. It is funny how you ignore the fact that Carts not only had less storage space, but cost a hell of a lot more to manufacture. Nintendo didn't care, because it was their proprietary format, and they didn't have to license from others to manufacture them. Same problem to a lesser extent with the GC media discs. When it comes to the Wii how does a market position dictate what a developer must do. Obviously that player base wasn't inducive enough to overcome all of the other associated costs and shortfalls.

Nintendo likes to flaunt industry standards, and dictate their own terms. It is no wonder really that the industry pushes back, and refuses to change its own tune to be in lock step with Nintendo. You talk about what Nintendo needs to do, but here is a idea. Nintendo should give the developers what they want, and they should make a wider variety of games to make their market more dynamic. It isn't the developers at fault, because frankly they don't care where they put the games they are making. Just that those games make them money. Nintendo are the ones at fault for not making a platform that can be profitable for studios that are not Nintendo.

You point to the larger install base, but the truth of the matter is this. That install base was a toxic dead zone. Developers would walk in, and come back totally poisoned from one side to the next. Nintendo had created a platform where core/hardcore games had no real chance for success. I am going to say something harsh now. The Wii was really just a fad. People bought the machine. Played a couple games on it. Then shoved it in a closet to be forgotten. What good is any game console where the vast majority of owners don't play for more then a few months.

Ah, but here's the thing. Third party games do just fine on Nintendo platforms when the developer actually gives a shit. What developers like to do is take their bs excuses, use them to make half-hearted games, and then use these games to justify a further lack of support. Remember Deadly Creatures? Or even better, Resident Evil Umbrella Chronicles, where the success of the test just told Capcom to... make more tests. Companies that take Nintendo consoles seriously profit in those environments, those that do not, fail, and deservedly so, but where the ignorance comes in is when everyone blames that failure on Nintendo, when it rests squarely on the head of the lazy and unimaginative.

Which isn't to suggest that Nintendo is always perfect, but in this case the blame clearly, clearly falls to the other side.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Oh good I'm being reminded why I've started to hate this place



Dodece said:
Cobretti2 said:
Mr Khan said:
The excuses continue.

And no, this post isn't ironic.


Totally agree.

N64 = oh it still uses cartriges (yet the console had some of the best game of the generation, OOT, perfect dark and goldeneye)

GCN = oh its half a dvd we cant fit our cinematics

Wii = it isn't powerful enough even though it was the market leader. Lets use it from shovelware to stay afloat from the failures on HD twins.

WiiU = too hard to think outside the square as the controller has a screen. If I was nintnedo after reading this crap I would provide a traditional controller option  to Wii U just to see what other excuse they use. I know wii remote and classic pro will work, but I hate the cord between the two.

 

Personally I am hoping that E3 will break the mold of this crap.

If nothing changes this nextgen, Nintendo needs to get aggressive and start buying studios so they only develop for Nintendo. Look what happened with Wii. They tried to spread their releases to give windows to third party as "oh we can't compete when Nintendo games come out" excuse was always used. In the end 3rd parties did nothing except release shovelware.. Sadly some of the best 3rd party games where ports like RE4 and ironically Godfather (great wii controls IMHO).

All the reasons you shit on were justifiable ones that were given at the time. Your problem isn't that they are wrong, but that they didn't serve your purposes. It is funny how you ignore the fact that Carts not only had less storage space, but cost a hell of a lot more to manufacture. Nintendo didn't care, because it was their proprietary format, and they didn't have to license from others to manufacture them. Same problem to a lesser extent with the GC media discs. When it comes to the Wii how does a market position dictate what a developer must do. Obviously that player base wasn't inducive enough to overcome all of the other associated costs and shortfalls.

Nintendo likes to flaunt industry standards, and dictate their own terms. It is no wonder really that the industry pushes back, and refuses to change its own tune to be in lock step with Nintendo. You talk about what Nintendo needs to do, but here is a idea. Nintendo should give the developers what they want, and they should make a wider variety of games to make their market more dynamic. It isn't the developers at fault, because frankly they don't care where they put the games they are making. Just that those games make them money. Nintendo are the ones at fault for not making a platform that can be profitable for studios that are not Nintendo.

You point to the larger install base, but the truth of the matter is this. That install base was a toxic dead zone. Developers would walk in, and come back totally poisoned from one side to the next. Nintendo had created a platform where core/hardcore games had no real chance for success. I am going to say something harsh now. The Wii was really just a fad. People bought the machine. Played a couple games on it. Then shoved it in a closet to be forgotten. What good is any game console where the vast majority of owners don't play for more then a few months.


I won't argue that Nintendo is perfect. Everyone knows  that Nintendo made mistakes. All console manufacturers make mistakes.

You cnanot solely blame Nintendo for the 3rd party situation.

Lets look at it N64 even with its so called limitations etc has some of the best games of that generation. GoldenEye, Perfect Dark, Turok, Mario, LOZ: OOT, blast corps, 1080, banjo, RE, starfox  to name a few. Developers who tried got rewarded with success.

GCN - again had fantastic games. but sadly its purple colour made people think it was childish so all the cool kids at school didnt want anything to do with it.

Wii - compare capcom, EA efforts on GCN against Wii and you will see what I mean by 3rd party devs not caring about the Wii.