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Forums - Sales - Has the Wii become one of the biggest disappointments in gaming?

RolStoppable said:
Sal.Paradise said:

Too much of the same will inevitably lead to failure for some. That is my argument for the shooter situation or any "let's make this kind of game for this console, because one such game was very successful" situation. At some point the market simply can't support it anymore. Since I've just mentioned Red Faction in a previous post, I'll use it as an example here. It wasn't a big IP last gen, but it did fairly well. Now THQ could throw it to the wolves (which they did) or become the big fish on the Wii, because nobody else tried to satisfy the demand for shooters on the Wii. The shooter market on the HD consoles had become incredibly competitive which required companies to spend not only a lot of money on development to keep up with the production values, but also big bucks on advertisement.

On top of this, like I said before, this generation generated record revenues, but not record profits. A sign that the decisions that were made were not necessarily the best ones. It's like everyone in the industry had a tunnel vision which is why even some RPGs have been turned into shooters.

As for the downloadable games, I was refering to the amount of content you get. A downloadable platformer is often over in three to five hours while a boxed game gives you 10-20 hours of playtime for the initial playtrough. It's basically a snack vs. a full meal. The Wii could have gotten all the indie games in the world, but there would still have been something missing. You don't buy a dedicated gaming machine to only consume snacks, if you know what I mean.

Next point, the reception for Silent Hill: SM is all over the place. Some say it's awesome, others criticize its predictability. The game makes a clear distinction between puzzle and action sections (although action in this case just refers to running away from enemies). I haven't bought the game for this reason, because I consider the element of suspense a pretty important part in a survival horror title. As for its sales, a SH fanbase was never established on a Nintendo system before and the PS2 had a long tail. The VGC database cannot be fully trusted at this point. While I don't object to the PS2 version having sold more copies, I need to point out that the game was released day and date on the Wii, PS2 and PSP. VGC for some reason lists the Wii version as a 2009 release, but Gamefaqs (who I trust more; no offense, VGC) says otherwise. Here is a link to the SH:SM page, it just takes a few clicks to confirm what I am saying here.

Lastly, Deca Sports was riding on the popularity of Wii Sports, obviously. I don't need to tell you that such games have a far higher sales ceiling than survival horror. Don't forget though what I said at the beginning of this post: Too much of the same will inevitably lead to failure for some. Third parties rushing to make Wii Sports (and Wii Play) clones led to dozens of games that quickly ended up in the bargain bin. If nothing else, one thing is certain: Third parties could have been (much) more successful this generation, if they spreaded their games more evenly across all platforms instead of blindly chasing popular trends.

The Silent Hill game was released Jan 2010 on PS2, December 2009 on Wii, according to wikipedia. My point in saying that the PS2 version released in 2010 was not to imply it was a significantly later release btw, I was just pointing out that SW on a console from the previous generation outsold one from the current generation. I mean come on, no matter the argument that Silent Hill did not appear on Nintendo consoles before, you know you're in trouble when you're having to defend a game in 2010 selling more on a system released 10 years ago than on Nintendo's current hardware (especially when the HW sales are as high as they are for the Wii). 

I don't think that argument for shooters on the Wii holds much weight. The PS360+PC market supported a seemingly unending stream of cut and paste (and some original ones, mind you) shooters for 5-6 years, only recently (in this unprecedentedly long generation) are we seeing the more mediocre titles bring in disappointing numbers, and I don't need to tell you that now is too late to bother developing for the Wii. 

Taking your specific Red Faction example, why would their lacklustre sequel have sold better on the Wii? You say that nobody else tried to satisfy demand for shooters on the console, but I remember a highly publicized title by name of the Conduit that was positioned as a game to prove that the Wii catered to 'hardcore' gamers. I saw it on the E3 main stage after a speech about games on Wii with a 'harder edge', I saw tv adverts for it, it received attention and reviews from outlets that had begun to ignore third party Wii games, but it sold dismally compared to equally high profile releases on PS360+PC, and compared to more 'casual' games on the Wii itself. The US launch week was 72k. In terms of lifetime sales, there are 246 games on the Wii that moved higher numbers than the Conduit did. And I don't really need to talk about the sequel, do I?

Another example is Red Steel 2, sure you could argue there was a slight barrier to entry with the Wii Motion Plus, but considering this is THE sequel to THE highest selling (and most probably highest profile, along with the Conduit) new shooter IP on Wii, and that it reviewed significantly better, seeing it struggle past the half-million line for lifetime sales is not an indication of an untapped shooter market just begging for atttention. You say that if companies had 'spread out' their efforts more evenly across platforms they could have been more successful, but I don't see any way of supporting this argument (for shooters at least) other than as wishful thinking, seeing as the numbers tell a different story. 

Your comment about record revenues as opposed to record profits sounds reasonable in some very specific cases, but I have a hard time believing it is applicable here without concrete figures. 

You're right about the download-able only games, when it comes to consoles at least. I think my muse on that was more over a missed oppurtunity to get some quality third party games in the hands of Wii gamers, rather than as a drive to revitalize the market (speaking as a former Wii owner, the cheap and accessible indie experiences on Steam/PSN seem like a perfect fit for the console).



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Gilgamesh said:

But my point is as a leading console has it performed the way a leading gaming console generally perform? No

When you put it that way...

Yes, third parties this gen have been one of the biggest disapointments in gaming.



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Gilgamesh said:

So what you think the Wii was going to continue selling at record numbers for the next couple years if Nintendo didn't aanounce the Wii-U?

If Nintendo had still been making games for the Wii, it would be doing just fine.  However, Nintendo does not have infinte resources.  They had to plan for the future, so they moved teams over to the 3DS and the Wii U.  That created the Wii "drought".

Normally, third party games pick up the slack for the market leader.  But as I said above, third parties have been a huge disapointment and failed to deliver.



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kowenicki said:

developers need an incentive to develop for a console... both financial and creative.

So the fastest selling console of all time (until the 3DS) doesn't have financial incentive?  Ridiculous.

I guess the Wii remote had no opportunities for developers to be creative either.



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theRepublic said:
Gilgamesh said:

So what you think the Wii was going to continue selling at record numbers for the next couple years if Nintendo didn't aanounce the Wii-U?

If Nintendo had still been making games for the Wii, it would be doing just fine.  However, Nintendo does not have infinte resources.  They had to plan for the future, so they moved teams over to the 3DS and the Wii U.  That created the Wii "drought".

Normally, third party games pick up the slack for the market leader.  But as I said above, third parties have been a huge disapointment and failed to deliver.

Third party has been great this year, to two consoles...they look for whoever has the most potential and make there games with them its how they make there money.

And you got to be kidding about the Wii doing fine now if the Wii-U hadn't been announced? Sales were already below PS3 and X360 before the Wii-U was announced hows that fine?



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Gilgamesh said:
theRepublic said:
Gilgamesh said:

So what you think the Wii was going to continue selling at record numbers for the next couple years if Nintendo didn't aanounce the Wii-U?

If Nintendo had still been making games for the Wii, it would be doing just fine.  However, Nintendo does not have infinte resources.  They had to plan for the future, so they moved teams over to the 3DS and the Wii U.  That created the Wii "drought".

Normally, third party games pick up the slack for the market leader.  But as I said above, third parties have been a huge disapointment and failed to deliver.

Third party has been great this year, to two consoles...they look for whoever has the most potential and make there games with them its how they make there money.

And you got to be kidding about the Wii doing fine now if the Wii-U hadn't been announced? Sales were already below PS3 and X360 before the Wii-U was announced hows that fine?

Learn to read.



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PC - Command & Conquer Remastered Collection (1995/1996/2020)

The Wii sold 65 million in its first 3 years. 80 million in its first 4 years. In the last couple of years the Wii has tanked in sales. Both X360 and PS3 outsell the Wii in yearly sales. The Wii should still be able to hold onto first place bragging rights in regards to ltd console sales.



i'd say disappointing 3rd party support. There are alot of great first party games, with waggle controls limited. The pokemon fan inside of me feels kicked in the balls for the sad pokemon stadium attempt called battle revolution. and late in the life cycle there hasn't been much to write home about. However its not a bad system, i use it alot



RolStoppable said:
Sal.Paradise said:

I'm sorry but I really think from the numbers that the market for shooters on platforms other than the Wii was just guaranteed movement to those systems, and as I said before you cannot say a third party screwed the Wii over in that area unless you blame them for trying to make money. I'd like to hear an argument against that rather long-winded post I made if you have one, but I can't see much that could be said. 

For genres other than racing/fps/tps I really cannot say, I just thought that whenever I hear about Wii games on gaming sites, apart from Nintendo games or JRPGs, they will be some sort of action adventure, platformer or 'other' genre game, off the top of my head Zack and Wiki, Epic Mickey, de Blob..well that's it.  

I will say the number of quality platformers on ALL systems has decreased this gen I believe (or at least their presence has) aside from indie games. Unfortunately, these indie games have not found their way to Wii for the most part (although World of Goo is on the Wii right?) probably due to download and internal storage limits on the Wii, something I would've liked to see Nintendo address this generation. 

"Download-only games can be a nice diversion, but they should be an addition to the retail software."

If you mean that in terms of grabbing sales and creating a market on the system, sure I agree, but if you're talking about quality, download-only games are right up there with boxed retail games by anyone's standards. There really isn't a distinction between the two anymore, other than in 90% of cases budget, and budget is no guarantee of quality. 

 

Actually I was just talking to someone about Silent Hill, and I'd like to mention that this is a franchise where a third party publisher (Konami) did bring their game to the Wii, and by all reports Shattered Memories was great (I'm super jealous you guys got it); the best since 2 and 3, I've heard most fans say. The game sold better on the PS2 (released in 2010) than it did on the Wii. Not saying this is indicative of a trend as it's just one game, but it is food for thought. In comparison, Konami found an almost 2.5 million seller on the WIi in 2008, in 'Deca Sports', whatever the fuck that is. 

Too much of the same will inevitably lead to failure for some. That is my argument for the shooter situation or any "let's make this kind of game for this console, because one such game was very successful" situation. At some point the market simply can't support it anymore. Since I've just mentioned Red Faction in a previous post, I'll use it as an example here. It wasn't a big IP last gen, but it did fairly well. Now THQ could throw it to the wolves (which they did) or become the big fish on the Wii, because nobody else tried to satisfy the demand for shooters on the Wii. The shooter market on the HD consoles had become incredibly competitive which required companies to spend not only a lot of money on development to keep up with the production values, but also big bucks on advertisement.

On top of this, like I said before, this generation generated record revenues, but not record profits. A sign that the decisions that were made were not necessarily the best ones. It's like everyone in the industry had a tunnel vision which is why even some RPGs have been turned into shooters.

As for the downloadable games, I was refering to the amount of content you get. A downloadable platformer is often over in three to five hours while a boxed game gives you 10-20 hours of playtime for the initial playtrough. It's basically a snack vs. a full meal. The Wii could have gotten all the indie games in the world, but there would still have been something missing. You don't buy a dedicated gaming machine to only consume snacks, if you know what I mean.

Next point, the reception for Silent Hill: SM is all over the place. Some say it's awesome, others criticize its predictability. The game makes a clear distinction between puzzle and action sections (although action in this case just refers to running away from enemies). I haven't bought the game for this reason, because I consider the element of suspense a pretty important part in a survival horror title. As for its sales, a SH fanbase was never established on a Nintendo system before and the PS2 had a long tail. The VGC database cannot be fully trusted at this point. While I don't object to the PS2 version having sold more copies, I need to point out that the game was released day and date on the Wii, PS2 and PSP. VGC for some reason lists the Wii version as a 2009 release, but Gamefaqs (who I trust more; no offense, VGC) says otherwise. Here is a link to the SH:SM page, it just takes a few clicks to confirm what I am saying here.

Lastly, Deca Sports was riding on the popularity of Wii Sports, obviously. I don't need to tell you that such games have a far higher sales ceiling than survival horror. Don't forget though what I said at the beginning of this post: Too much of the same will inevitably lead to failure for some. Third parties rushing to make Wii Sports (and Wii Play) clones led to dozens of games that quickly ended up in the bargain bin. If nothing else, one thing is certain: Third parties could have been (much) more successful this generation, if they spreaded their games more evenly across all platforms instead of blindly chasing popular trends.


I think that is actually up for debate.

The profits were more concentrated this gen but I don't think they were any less...

For first party Nintendo + Sony + Microsoft together did better in term of profits than last gen...( Nintendo did a lot better, Microsoft did a lot better, Sony did a lot worse).

Activision broke every record for profits and operating margin this gen for third parties ( which means they stole a lot of profits from other companies). That includes a 1 billion$ profit in 2011...

When all is said and done Take Two will probably do better this gen than last gen ( if GTA5 releases this fiscal year as they are planning).

EA did a lot worse..

Ubisoft did a little worse but in the same ballpark than last gen.

THQ did a lot worse.

Bethesda probably did a lot better ( hard to say by how much  as we don't get detailed numbers as they are owned by ZeniMax).

One would think Epic Games did a lot better ( between unreal royalties and Gear I think it's a given).

Bungie did a tonn better.

Valve did better ( they had few releases last gen on HD consoles but some good hits this gen with the orange box, portal and  portal 2).

Most smaller studios did worse.

Most Japanese studios did a lot worse ( exception might be Konami, hard to say as their video games results are merged with slot machines results and the slot machine business has been steadilly failing). Capcom I believe did decent. Square Enix was a lot worse...

 

I haven't computed the exact number but I think in 2011 Activision did more profit than all the others 3rd parties combined. That is the reality right now. Last gen those profits were more shared. And Activision might have been more involved in the Wii at the start of the gen with guitar hero but they aren't anymore now........

 



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

Ail said:


I think that is actually up for debate.

The profits were more concentrated this gen but I don't think they were any less...

For first party Nintendo + Sony + Microsoft together did better in term of profits than last gen...( Nintendo did a lot better, Microsoft did a lot better, Sony did a lot worse).

Activision broke every record for profits and operating margin this gen for third parties ( which means they stole a lot of profits from other companies). That includes a 1 billion$ profit in 2011...

When all is said and done Take Two will probably do better this gen than last gen ( if GTA5 releases this fiscal year as they are planning).

EA did a lot worse..

Ubisoft did a little worse but in the same ballpark than last gen.

THQ did a lot worse.

Bethesda probably did a lot better ( hard to say by how much  as we don't get detailed numbers as they are owned by ZeniMax).

One would think Epic Games did a lot better ( between unreal royalties and Gear I think it's a given).

Bungie did a tonn better.

Valve did better ( they had few releases last gen on HD consoles but some good hits this gen with the orange box, portal and  portal 2).

Most smaller studios did worse.

Most Japanese studios did a lot worse ( exception might be Konami, hard to say as their video games results are merged with slot machines results and the slot machine business has been steadilly failing). Capcom I believe did decent. Square Enix was a lot worse...

 

I haven't computed the exact number but I think in 2011 Activision did more profit than all the others 3rd parties combined. That is the reality right now. Last gen those profits were more shared. And Activision might have been more involved in the Wii at the start of the gen with guitar hero but they aren't anymore now........

 

Valve did ridiculously well this gen but I doubt much of that can be attributed to the consoles. They're effectively a platform holder now with Steam and gaining royalties for digital purchases.