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Forums - General - Is religion still relevant in modern society?

sapphi_snake said:
DélioPT said:

I`m not going to start a religious debate here, but it`s not true that religious people are free as birds to live their faith as they want. You will probably find countries where that happens.

Please, don`t take religious views as they are after you or anyone else. It`s not like that. Try to understand that it`s not personnal, it`s a result of a religious mindset and the defense of values in such mindset.
You spoke of homosexuals and stem cells.
About stem cells, i`ll admit i don`t enough about them to make a statemente, but according to this article (http://catholicism.about.com/od/thechurchintheworld/p/Stem_Cells.htm) the Catholic Church, for example, is not against all stem cell research.
About homosexuality, please, let me make it clear, the Church is NOT against homosexuals. It`s against what it calls a sin - an action or acceptance of a life perpretated by someone. Therefore, as Church defines matrimony or the sacrament of matrimon, as between only man and woman, it natural opposes unions of the same sex.

All of what you wrote above about judging and insulting, you know that that does not speak for religions themselves and should only speak for those who, wrongly, do those actions.

Yes it is. The fact that it classifies homosexuality as a sin proves that.

If being against something it considers a sin, is the same as being against the person who commits a sin, then the Church is against every single man and woman. Do you see that happening?
There is a difference: "hate" the sin, not the sinner.



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DélioPT said:

If being against something it considers a sin, is the same as being against the person who commits a sin, then the Church is against every single man and woman. Do you see that happening?
There is a difference: "hate" the sin, not the sinner.

it's still disgusting (and hypocritical) that the church condemns the 'sin' of homosexuality....when by their own faith, God created us all as he deemed fit, so Homosexuals were born that way.  Plus it doesn't harm anyone so they have no right to push their agenda.  



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Andrespetmonkey said:
Dr.Grass said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
Dr.Grass said:
Runa216 said:
Marks said:
Seriously? So its only religious people that harm others, are homophobic, are sexist, etc? I know you're like the most anti-religious guy on the site but even you can't say that with a straight face. 

What do Hitler, Stalin and Mao have in common? All strongly anti-religion. Not saying atheists are killers or anything, all I'm proving is that violence and religion don't go hand in hand. 

And do you seriously think homophobia was invented by religion? Yeah the bible is anti-gay but only in the Old Testament (before Jesus and everything). I know so many people that hate gays but none of them are due to religious beliefs, its just because gays are different. People will always hate those that are different. If homophobia ever goes away then it will just be replaced by some other form of hatred. I don't see hate in general ever disappearing from humanity. 

And just like I said with homophobia, sexism I'm sure wan't invented by religion either. Yeah I guess some religions like Islam say that men are more important than women, but do you really think sexism is suddenly going to disappear overnight if religions disappear overnight? I doubt it. 

All I've said is that religions can teach kids good values, I didn't say kids can't learn good values without religion. Big difference between those two statements. 

Ladies and gentlemen, hypocrisy 101.  I didn't say Atheism was pure or anything, I didn't try to proclaim that being an atheist would make you a perfect, flawless human being (after all, a lot of modern corporate greed has nothing to do with religion.)  all I said was that it's a logical fallacy to assume in any way that religion is in any way the source of morals, or that it 'teaches kids ethics'.  See, the bible may teach some good things, but for every good lesson they can get, there are three bad lessons to negate it, so since you're gonna be picking and choosing what morals to pass down, why not eliminate the part of the equation that assumes an invisivle man in the sky brought down rules from the heavens?  seems a bit extreme just to teach some kid not to steal. 

 

You please tell me what motivation is there for a person who has adopted the non-theistic world view to have any morals at all?

As I see it, with no value assigned to consciousness, any person who adhere's to some sort of morality is the real hypocrite. You are then the one who falls for your emotions time and time again even though such a person believes them as nothing more than electro-chemical impulses.

'' why not eliminate the part of the equation that assumes an invisivle man in the sky brought down rules from the heavens? ''

We had an interesting discussion in class today. The topic was a the future of nuclear reactors (just hang in there for a minute)... Anyway, he's from Germany where the government has recently put a complete halt on the nuclear industry. Problem is ,the people making those decisions are incredibly short-sighted and simply following the whims of the social demands presented by the public. So he made the statement:

''Once people have made up their mind about a certain belief then it's nigh-on impossible to get them to even consider an alternative''

Clearly you fall into this category. Now this doesn't mean you are wrong, BUT it does mean that there is no point for you to go into these discussions (with this attitude) since neither you nor the other party will gain anything from them.

Not to mention that you haven't studied any philosophies beyond the (admittedly limited) presentation of theism presented in the Bible.

So if you want to go along and assume yourself so great that you can deny the beliefs that many adhere to (where many of these people are certainly more intelligent than you), even though you have a very limited understanding of modern science then what's your motivation for coming in here and acting so self-righteous?

Science itself is a disappointment if one is looking for a coherent explanation of the universe and life. It's quite simply not a proper explanation.

As an atheist, I do have value assigned to consciousness as I think life is rare and this is the only life I have, I need to make the most of it. Which is also another source of my morals, wanting to make the most out of life, and I know treating other people like shit will make me feel like shit, it's called empathy. The best way to live is to work together in my opinion, and this means treating others the way you want to be treated. 

Just because I don't believe in the supernatural and believe that my brain is solely causing my emotions doesn't mean I don't feel those emotions. Whether you like or not, I feel love, empathy, joy and awe just as much as you do. 

You're absolutely right, with what we know scientifically at the moment we can't give a full explanation of the universe and life (although we do know a lot about life). So shouldn't the conclusion we come to be we don't fully know, so let's keep looking for the answer with the best possible method we have, science? 


BTW I know this wasn't to me, but I thought I'd chime in.


I get what you're saying, but I like playing devil's advocate with it because (a) your proposition ultimately implies that your feelings, experiences and beliefs are meaningless, (b) it usually shows that the avowed atheist (please note I'm not putting you in this bracket) is as guilty of hypocrisy as a theist, and finally that it's so much fun.

All in all I have no problem with your post (not that my opinion means anything in the grander scheme of things), but I certainly do have a problem with the majority of posts that come from that camp.

Ultimately it's not what you believe, but how you believe... And those that say they don't adhere to beliefs need to go to a mental institution - we all do.

EDIT: I find it VERY amusing that my ''bracket''+''c''+''bracket'' ended up being a '' '' considering what my point  'c' turned out to be.

I don't deny that my life is ultimately meaningless (in a sense). But what I do now, with this life, is meaningful to me.
Yup, unless you're a robot, you have beliefs. I know atheism is a belief, but I think it's a rational and defendable (is that a word?) belief to have, and in my case I can confidently say it's well thought-out. 

Although it may not seem like it right now, I actually don't give too much of a shit about these debates. And I just get on with my life and not worry about it most of the time, whilst still being a decent person, this is why it angers me when people like padib tell me I'm immoral and my atheism is immoral, and he really has no justification at all. Like most people, I'm good for the sake of being good, not because I think I'll be ultimately judged, he just can't accept that. 

What's your point of view on all this?

I just spent 2.5 days at Newlands watching the most incredible cricket match ever. You know cricket right? (from England I think?).

I think your view is fair. However, I do not consider the athestic framework to be any more rational than some of the theological systems I've studied. Certainly the Christianised world has very little access to these echelons of higher spirtual thought. Problem is, 99/100 people who claim these rather abusive views on 'religion' are looking at a very small subsection (and clearly less developed) than what actually exist.

There are several fundamental flaws in the scientific framework - consciousness being among the foremost.

''There is no kind of framework within which we can find consciousness in the plural; this is simply something we construct because of the temporal plurality of individuals, but it is a false construction... The only solution to this conflict insofar as any is available to us at all lies in the ancient wisdom of the Upanishad.''

~Erwin Schrodinger



Paul said:
Dr.Grass said:

 

 

You please tell me what motivation is there for a person who has adopted the non-theistic world view to have any morals at all?

I like my children, wife, pizza and video games. They help me lead a well balanced and happy life.

Science itself is a disappointment if one is looking for a coherent explanation of the universe and life. It's quite simply not a proper explanation.

I prefer the explanation, "god did it". I find it brings so much closure to questions about life, the universe and why your brain doesn't function. It's relatively short and you don't have to think about anything. Science is hard and you have to spend so much time observing stuff.




And what if you stop liking your wife and children? What amazes me very much is that people who claim to adhere to the most logical world-view have no answers when it comes to the basic issues of desire and pleasure.

In fact, such a veil is pulled over personhood, consciousness and mind (as a substantial entity), that the explanation for these things gets absorbed into weak arguments like:

''...I like my children, wife, pizza and video games. They help me lead a well balanced and happy life.''

Which brings us to your sarcastic ''god did it'' output. You see, you may look at certain religions and the people who partake therein and extrapolate that this is what religion means. Sure, you probably have not experienced evidence that there might be a truly transcendent aspect to our existence which is only reachable by an adjustment of consciousness and a reinforcement of advanced philosophical ideas. But with the majority of the average modern person being mostly exposed to sensual impulses that are in direct contradiction to the principles behind such lofty theological ideas, you have to ask yourself whether you have actually tried to look at it objectively.

''Science is hard and you have to spend so much time observing stuff.''

You are very unfortunate if you believe all theists are this undeveloped.

And science isn't that hard.



theprof00 said:
Dr.Grass said:
theprof00 said:

Yes it is a gross misrepresentation because you equate areligiousness with strict mechanical automation.

You asked how a person without religion could have motivation for morality, then pointing out that the areligious follow cut-throat instincts. You talk as if they're a separate species.

So don't lie. That's what you actually think. Otherwise, the whole reasoning for your psot makes no sense. People do the right thing because we are social creatures, and are guided by a conscience to ensure group survival rather than individual domination. There are variances here and there, but for the msot part it is true. We are designed to work in a social environment. Even the lawless barbarian hordes are a group of brothers, no? Evil people are still morally good to their brothers. It's just the scope that's different. They have no outside morality, but in their group, they do. 

Again, it is a straw man argument because you turn humans who disagree with you (areligious) into heartless robots, and then attack a heartless robot's motivation for doing good. That is case in point, a strawman argument.

''Yes it is a gross misrepresentation because you equate areligiousness with strict mechanical automation.''

When the laws of material nature are all there is then how can this not be true?

''You asked how a person without religion could have motivation for morality, then pointing out that the areligious follow cut-throat instincts. You talk as if they're a separate species.''

Yes I did ask that, but I didn't 'point out' what you are saying there. You are building a nice straw man there yourself aren't you?

''So don't lie. That's what you actually think. Otherwise, the whole reasoning for your psot makes no sense.''

No. I believe in a different source of man's desires. There is no point in trying to cram it in here, but it is also not required for me to explain my beliefs in this context at all. I understand why you would think that the 'reasoning behind my post' doesn't make sense based on my statements before. In fact, you have seen a subtlety in my reasoning and made a rather valid assumption. Unfortunately, your assumption is wrong - my motivation stems from the fact that I cannot tolerate seeing someone being religiously against religion. ESPECIALLY if this person loses logic and common sense along the way. That is why I attack such a person, even if my method of attack seems to insinuate beliefs that are not my own.

''People do the right thing because we are social creatures, and are guided by a conscience to ensure group survival rather than individual domination. There are variances here and there, but for the msot part it is true. We are designed to work in a social environment. Even the lawless barbarian hordes are a group of brothers, no? Evil people are still morally good to their brothers. It's just the scope that's different. They have no outside morality, but in their group, they do. ''

I get this evolutionary idea, I really do. I once had to sit through 50 excruciating minutes as my computer science proffessor went on and on about the evolutionary origin of love. Yes, an explanation of the origin of these things has been found. But it's not the only explanation, and I certainly do not think it is a very good one. For me to be convinced you need to simulate the evolution of these things - that would certainly constitute proof. Anything less and you can keep your hypothesis and I'll keep my eastern philosophy (which I consider much superior).

''Again, it is a straw man argument because you turn humans who disagree with you (areligious) into heartless robots, and then attack a heartless robot's motivation for doing good. That is case in point, a strawman argument.''

No. Because you are explaining here that I'm presenting the person in a certain light - NOT his proposition. Therefore, not strictly a straw man argument.

I'm enjoying this very much btw - and I'm editing out that nasty last comment I left - it was uncalled for, and, in hindsight, possibly inaccurate.

When the laws of material nature are all there is then how can this not be true?

Because you don't understand the laws of nature. You misrepresent it. If your version was true, then your description would be true, but it's not, therefore neither are you.



Since you are supporting and objective universe, whatever laws there are are independent of my knowledge of them. Hence the laws of material nature will continue as they are meant to and you end up with an independently functioning system.

You really are circling the drain here - that was a pretty poor comment. 



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Dr.Grass said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
Dr.Grass said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
Dr.Grass said:
Runa216 said:
Marks said:
Seriously? So its only religious people that harm others, are homophobic, are sexist, etc? I know you're like the most anti-religious guy on the site but even you can't say that with a straight face. 

What do Hitler, Stalin and Mao have in common? All strongly anti-religion. Not saying atheists are killers or anything, all I'm proving is that violence and religion don't go hand in hand. 

And do you seriously think homophobia was invented by religion? Yeah the bible is anti-gay but only in the Old Testament (before Jesus and everything). I know so many people that hate gays but none of them are due to religious beliefs, its just because gays are different. People will always hate those that are different. If homophobia ever goes away then it will just be replaced by some other form of hatred. I don't see hate in general ever disappearing from humanity. 

And just like I said with homophobia, sexism I'm sure wan't invented by religion either. Yeah I guess some religions like Islam say that men are more important than women, but do you really think sexism is suddenly going to disappear overnight if religions disappear overnight? I doubt it. 

All I've said is that religions can teach kids good values, I didn't say kids can't learn good values without religion. Big difference between those two statements. 

Ladies and gentlemen, hypocrisy 101.  I didn't say Atheism was pure or anything, I didn't try to proclaim that being an atheist would make you a perfect, flawless human being (after all, a lot of modern corporate greed has nothing to do with religion.)  all I said was that it's a logical fallacy to assume in any way that religion is in any way the source of morals, or that it 'teaches kids ethics'.  See, the bible may teach some good things, but for every good lesson they can get, there are three bad lessons to negate it, so since you're gonna be picking and choosing what morals to pass down, why not eliminate the part of the equation that assumes an invisivle man in the sky brought down rules from the heavens?  seems a bit extreme just to teach some kid not to steal. 

 

You please tell me what motivation is there for a person who has adopted the non-theistic world view to have any morals at all?

As I see it, with no value assigned to consciousness, any person who adhere's to some sort of morality is the real hypocrite. You are then the one who falls for your emotions time and time again even though such a person believes them as nothing more than electro-chemical impulses.

'' why not eliminate the part of the equation that assumes an invisivle man in the sky brought down rules from the heavens? ''

We had an interesting discussion in class today. The topic was a the future of nuclear reactors (just hang in there for a minute)... Anyway, he's from Germany where the government has recently put a complete halt on the nuclear industry. Problem is ,the people making those decisions are incredibly short-sighted and simply following the whims of the social demands presented by the public. So he made the statement:

''Once people have made up their mind about a certain belief then it's nigh-on impossible to get them to even consider an alternative''

Clearly you fall into this category. Now this doesn't mean you are wrong, BUT it does mean that there is no point for you to go into these discussions (with this attitude) since neither you nor the other party will gain anything from them.

Not to mention that you haven't studied any philosophies beyond the (admittedly limited) presentation of theism presented in the Bible.

So if you want to go along and assume yourself so great that you can deny the beliefs that many adhere to (where many of these people are certainly more intelligent than you), even though you have a very limited understanding of modern science then what's your motivation for coming in here and acting so self-righteous?

Science itself is a disappointment if one is looking for a coherent explanation of the universe and life. It's quite simply not a proper explanation.

As an atheist, I do have value assigned to consciousness as I think life is rare and this is the only life I have, I need to make the most of it. Which is also another source of my morals, wanting to make the most out of life, and I know treating other people like shit will make me feel like shit, it's called empathy. The best way to live is to work together in my opinion, and this means treating others the way you want to be treated. 

Just because I don't believe in the supernatural and believe that my brain is solely causing my emotions doesn't mean I don't feel those emotions. Whether you like or not, I feel love, empathy, joy and awe just as much as you do. 

You're absolutely right, with what we know scientifically at the moment we can't give a full explanation of the universe and life (although we do know a lot about life). So shouldn't the conclusion we come to be we don't fully know, so let's keep looking for the answer with the best possible method we have, science? 


BTW I know this wasn't to me, but I thought I'd chime in.


I get what you're saying, but I like playing devil's advocate with it because (a) your proposition ultimately implies that your feelings, experiences and beliefs are meaningless, (b) it usually shows that the avowed atheist (please note I'm not putting you in this bracket) is as guilty of hypocrisy as a theist, and finally that it's so much fun.

All in all I have no problem with your post (not that my opinion means anything in the grander scheme of things), but I certainly do have a problem with the majority of posts that come from that camp.

Ultimately it's not what you believe, but how you believe... And those that say they don't adhere to beliefs need to go to a mental institution - we all do.

EDIT: I find it VERY amusing that my ''bracket''+''c''+''bracket'' ended up being a '' '' considering what my point  'c' turned out to be.

I don't deny that my life is ultimately meaningless (in a sense). But what I do now, with this life, is meaningful to me.
Yup, unless you're a robot, you have beliefs. I know atheism is a belief, but I think it's a rational and defendable (is that a word?) belief to have, and in my case I can confidently say it's well thought-out. 

Although it may not seem like it right now, I actually don't give too much of a shit about these debates. And I just get on with my life and not worry about it most of the time, whilst still being a decent person, this is why it angers me when people like padib tell me I'm immoral and my atheism is immoral, and he really has no justification at all. Like most people, I'm good for the sake of being good, not because I think I'll be ultimately judged, he just can't accept that. 

What's your point of view on all this?

I just spent 2.5 days at Newlands watching the most incredible cricket match ever. You know cricket right? (from England I think?).

I think your view is fair. However, I do not consider the athestic framework to be any more rational than some of the theological systems I've studied. Certainly the Christianised world has very little access to these echelons of higher spirtual thought. Problem is, 99/100 people who claim these rather abusive views on 'religion' are looking at a very small subsection (and clearly less developed) than what actually exist.

There are several fundamental flaws in the scientific framework - consciousness being among the foremost.

''There is no kind of framework within which we can find consciousness in the plural; this is simply something we construct because of the temporal plurality of individuals, but it is a false construction... The only solution to this conflict insofar as any is available to us at all lies in the ancient wisdom of the Upanishad.''

~Erwin Schrodinger

Yeah I know cricket haha, don't watch it though, it's not really that popular over here believe it or not.

I think it is, but I have my own reasons and I think some atheists are just as irrational as some theists. And just for the record, the only religions I really have a problem with are abrahamic ones, and only when the people following them are preaching to me or making ridiculous claims, otherwise, for the most part, I have no problem with religion.

I don't see these as flaws, because the scientific framework is not something that is complete. Or I guess I could call them temporary flaws, because we are discoving new things everyday and I'm sure we'll eventually fully understand conciousness in a scientific sense. Even if we have no idea of where it comes from, we also had no clue as to what the building blocks of the universe are a couple hundred years ago. Now we know. Maybe it is spiritual, I'm not saying it isn't, but until proven, I'll stick to saying I don't know.




Dr.Grass said:
theprof00 said:
Dr.Grass said:
theprof00 said:

Yes it is a gross misrepresentation because you equate areligiousness with strict mechanical automation.

You asked how a person without religion could have motivation for morality, then pointing out that the areligious follow cut-throat instincts. You talk as if they're a separate species.

So don't lie. That's what you actually think. Otherwise, the whole reasoning for your psot makes no sense. People do the right thing because we are social creatures, and are guided by a conscience to ensure group survival rather than individual domination. There are variances here and there, but for the msot part it is true. We are designed to work in a social environment. Even the lawless barbarian hordes are a group of brothers, no? Evil people are still morally good to their brothers. It's just the scope that's different. They have no outside morality, but in their group, they do. 

Again, it is a straw man argument because you turn humans who disagree with you (areligious) into heartless robots, and then attack a heartless robot's motivation for doing good. That is case in point, a strawman argument.

''Yes it is a gross misrepresentation because you equate areligiousness with strict mechanical automation.''

When the laws of material nature are all there is then how can this not be true?

''You asked how a person without religion could have motivation for morality, then pointing out that the areligious follow cut-throat instincts. You talk as if they're a separate species.''

Yes I did ask that, but I didn't 'point out' what you are saying there. You are building a nice straw man there yourself aren't you?

''So don't lie. That's what you actually think. Otherwise, the whole reasoning for your psot makes no sense.''

No. I believe in a different source of man's desires. There is no point in trying to cram it in here, but it is also not required for me to explain my beliefs in this context at all. I understand why you would think that the 'reasoning behind my post' doesn't make sense based on my statements before. In fact, you have seen a subtlety in my reasoning and made a rather valid assumption. Unfortunately, your assumption is wrong - my motivation stems from the fact that I cannot tolerate seeing someone being religiously against religion. ESPECIALLY if this person loses logic and common sense along the way. That is why I attack such a person, even if my method of attack seems to insinuate beliefs that are not my own.

''People do the right thing because we are social creatures, and are guided by a conscience to ensure group survival rather than individual domination. There are variances here and there, but for the msot part it is true. We are designed to work in a social environment. Even the lawless barbarian hordes are a group of brothers, no? Evil people are still morally good to their brothers. It's just the scope that's different. They have no outside morality, but in their group, they do. ''

I get this evolutionary idea, I really do. I once had to sit through 50 excruciating minutes as my computer science proffessor went on and on about the evolutionary origin of love. Yes, an explanation of the origin of these things has been found. But it's not the only explanation, and I certainly do not think it is a very good one. For me to be convinced you need to simulate the evolution of these things - that would certainly constitute proof. Anything less and you can keep your hypothesis and I'll keep my eastern philosophy (which I consider much superior).

''Again, it is a straw man argument because you turn humans who disagree with you (areligious) into heartless robots, and then attack a heartless robot's motivation for doing good. That is case in point, a strawman argument.''

No. Because you are explaining here that I'm presenting the person in a certain light - NOT his proposition. Therefore, not strictly a straw man argument.

I'm enjoying this very much btw - and I'm editing out that nasty last comment I left - it was uncalled for, and, in hindsight, possibly inaccurate.

When the laws of material nature are all there is then how can this not be true?

Because you don't understand the laws of nature. You misrepresent it. If your version was true, then your description would be true, but it's not, therefore neither are you.



Since you are supporting and objective universe, whatever laws there are are independent of my knowledge of them. Hence the laws of material nature will continue as they are meant to and you end up with an independently functioning system.

You really are circling the drain here - that was a pretty poor comment. 

You're pathetic, and your only recourse is a typical religious demonization of the opposition.

You questioned why areligious would have any reason to be moral people, citing that according to the clinical world, it would be hypocritical to do anything but take advantage. You have no idea how humans work (a social species) and frankly this is not worth my time.

When you're ready to accept that you know less than you think you know, then we'll talk.



huaxiong90 said:
GameOver22 said:

You might have to explain that one to me. I haven't read anyhting that makes me think that the US went to war for any other reason than to defend itself or its neighbors. The goal was to eliminate a threat that possessed WMDs and was willing to use them. The only other goal was regime change, hence, why I said the other main justification for going to war was the nature of Hussein's regime.

As I said, this is the justification the US gave for going to war. The claims of WMDs turned out to be false, but that doesn't change the fact of why the US went to war. To simplify, the main reasons the US went to war was:

1. Defense

2. Regime Change (Democratization)

Now, whether or not these justifications turned out to be true, worthy of achieving, or successful is a whole different debate, and it doesn't change the initial justification for going to war.

I would answer that, but considering the insane patriotic feelings some people have, I'm better off not saying anything.

Regime Change i'd say would be the primary issue, from my perspective. There were elements in American foreign policy debate who felt that Saddam's continued reign was intolerable, and so they drummed up support by any means they could



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Runa216 said:
DélioPT said:

If being against something it considers a sin, is the same as being against the person who commits a sin, then the Church is against every single man and woman. Do you see that happening?
There is a difference: "hate" the sin, not the sinner.

it's still disgusting (and hypocritical) that the church condemns the 'sin' of homosexuality....when by their own faith, God created us all as he deemed fit, so Homosexuals were born that way.  Plus it doesn't harm anyone so they have no right to push their agenda.  

As i said before, it`s not a sin being gay, it`s living that life that is considered a sin.
Harming others is one kind of sin, harming oneself is another kind of sin. Sins aren`t just what you do to others but to yourself aswell.
And the Church isn`t here to push agendas.



Andrespetmonkey said:
Player1x3 said:
@padib
You have some patience to argue with this people. You of all people should know that its a complete waste of time. Why are you even trying? What are you hoping to achieve?

I know we had a disagreement recently (read my reply please). But you can't seriously be defending padib for some of the ridiculous things he says. Whether you're a christian or an atheist or whatever. 


Im not defending anyone. I didn't bother to read neither his or yours arguments, because really,(and I know i might come off like an arrogant asshole here) his arguments are incredibly weak in defence of theism, and yours are extremely hateful, bigoted, intolerant and misguided. Him and I, while both believe in God have COMPLETELY different views on God and Christianity. I could just as easley ask you why are you wasting your time trying to argue with him. These kinds of topics never lead anywhere, they only create bad blood between posters

I'll probably read the replay, tho i don't think i'll quote back