Andrespetmonkey said:
Dr.Grass said:
Andrespetmonkey said:
Dr.Grass said:
Runa216 said:
Marks said:
Seriously? So its only religious people that harm others, are homophobic, are sexist, etc? I know you're like the most anti-religious guy on the site but even you can't say that with a straight face.
What do Hitler, Stalin and Mao have in common? All strongly anti-religion. Not saying atheists are killers or anything, all I'm proving is that violence and religion don't go hand in hand.
And do you seriously think homophobia was invented by religion? Yeah the bible is anti-gay but only in the Old Testament (before Jesus and everything). I know so many people that hate gays but none of them are due to religious beliefs, its just because gays are different. People will always hate those that are different. If homophobia ever goes away then it will just be replaced by some other form of hatred. I don't see hate in general ever disappearing from humanity.
And just like I said with homophobia, sexism I'm sure wan't invented by religion either. Yeah I guess some religions like Islam say that men are more important than women, but do you really think sexism is suddenly going to disappear overnight if religions disappear overnight? I doubt it.
All I've said is that religions can teach kids good values, I didn't say kids can't learn good values without religion. Big difference between those two statements.
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Ladies and gentlemen, hypocrisy 101. I didn't say Atheism was pure or anything, I didn't try to proclaim that being an atheist would make you a perfect, flawless human being (after all, a lot of modern corporate greed has nothing to do with religion.) all I said was that it's a logical fallacy to assume in any way that religion is in any way the source of morals, or that it 'teaches kids ethics'. See, the bible may teach some good things, but for every good lesson they can get, there are three bad lessons to negate it, so since you're gonna be picking and choosing what morals to pass down, why not eliminate the part of the equation that assumes an invisivle man in the sky brought down rules from the heavens? seems a bit extreme just to teach some kid not to steal.
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You please tell me what motivation is there for a person who has adopted the non-theistic world view to have any morals at all?
As I see it, with no value assigned to consciousness, any person who adhere's to some sort of morality is the real hypocrite. You are then the one who falls for your emotions time and time again even though such a person believes them as nothing more than electro-chemical impulses.
'' why not eliminate the part of the equation that assumes an invisivle man in the sky brought down rules from the heavens? ''
We had an interesting discussion in class today. The topic was a the future of nuclear reactors (just hang in there for a minute)... Anyway, he's from Germany where the government has recently put a complete halt on the nuclear industry. Problem is ,the people making those decisions are incredibly short-sighted and simply following the whims of the social demands presented by the public. So he made the statement:
''Once people have made up their mind about a certain belief then it's nigh-on impossible to get them to even consider an alternative''
Clearly you fall into this category. Now this doesn't mean you are wrong, BUT it does mean that there is no point for you to go into these discussions (with this attitude) since neither you nor the other party will gain anything from them.
Not to mention that you haven't studied any philosophies beyond the (admittedly limited) presentation of theism presented in the Bible.
So if you want to go along and assume yourself so great that you can deny the beliefs that many adhere to (where many of these people are certainly more intelligent than you), even though you have a very limited understanding of modern science then what's your motivation for coming in here and acting so self-righteous?
Science itself is a disappointment if one is looking for a coherent explanation of the universe and life. It's quite simply not a proper explanation.
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As an atheist, I do have value assigned to consciousness as I think life is rare and this is the only life I have, I need to make the most of it. Which is also another source of my morals, wanting to make the most out of life, and I know treating other people like shit will make me feel like shit, it's called empathy. The best way to live is to work together in my opinion, and this means treating others the way you want to be treated.
Just because I don't believe in the supernatural and believe that my brain is solely causing my emotions doesn't mean I don't feel those emotions. Whether you like or not, I feel love, empathy, joy and awe just as much as you do.
You're absolutely right, with what we know scientifically at the moment we can't give a full explanation of the universe and life (although we do know a lot about life). So shouldn't the conclusion we come to be we don't fully know, so let's keep looking for the answer with the best possible method we have, science?
BTW I know this wasn't to me, but I thought I'd chime in.
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I get what you're saying, but I like playing devil's advocate with it because (a) your proposition ultimately implies that your feelings, experiences and beliefs are meaningless, (b) it usually shows that the avowed atheist (please note I'm not putting you in this bracket) is as guilty of hypocrisy as a theist, and finally  that it's so much fun.
All in all I have no problem with your post (not that my opinion means anything in the grander scheme of things), but I certainly do have a problem with the majority of posts that come from that camp.
Ultimately it's not what you believe, but how you believe... And those that say they don't adhere to beliefs need to go to a mental institution - we all do.
EDIT: I find it VERY amusing that my ''bracket''+''c''+''bracket'' ended up being a '' '' considering what my point 'c' turned out to be.
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I don't deny that my life is ultimately meaningless (in a sense). But what I do now, with this life, is meaningful to me.
Yup, unless you're a robot, you have beliefs. I know atheism is a belief, but I think it's a rational and defendable (is that a word?) belief to have, and in my case I can confidently say it's well thought-out.
Although it may not seem like it right now, I actually don't give too much of a shit about these debates. And I just get on with my life and not worry about it most of the time, whilst still being a decent person, this is why it angers me when people like padib tell me I'm immoral and my atheism is immoral, and he really has no justification at all. Like most people, I'm good for the sake of being good, not because I think I'll be ultimately judged, he just can't accept that.
What's your point of view on all this?
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