By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - UK threatens to cut aid over gay rights

dark_gh0st_b0y said:
it's way better for them to have no rights, i mean, the point is to consider them as normal people, not give them rights because they are ''different''

WOW, did you think you'd fool anyone with that? They are different. 'Different' and 'normal' aren't antonyms though. Them having rights means they're accepted as a legitimate group in society.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Around the Network
SamuelRSmith said:
zuvuyeay said:
SamuelRSmith said:
zuvuyeay said:
i doubt many will agree with me but the time for aid to asia is over isn't it,they should be giving it to us in 10 years time,i thought that india had a 600 million strong middle class,shanghai is the capital of the world,aliens will meet chinese people in space not the white westerner,

the rich arabs should sort out the poor muslim africans/asians more

corrupt african leaders have as much to do with the poor african as the nasty white man,i'm afraid the truth hurts

corporate profits rule everything in the end

on india i read that it will overtake china in population and economy one day,just wow,it's funny because india is like victorian england i think now but on a huge scale,i wonder how long it will be before she decides to lift its poor out of the slums and i wonder what gandhi would think

i saw a piece on our posh news that we export alot of tandoor ovens back to india,lulz,

between the USA and India,little england should be alright in the future

Both India and China's economic models are severely flawed... the West (USA) will still be the first country to make deep space... make contact with aliens? By that point I don't think race will even be an issue.

What do corporate profits have to do with Africa? The very problem with Africa is that the continent is too unsafe to invest in, Africa's problem isn't corporate greed, it's the lack of it.

why are they severely flawed?

are you saying no global corporations have their fingers in the african pie?

http://www.dnaindia.com/money/interview_china-s-investment-led-growth-a-time-bomb_1245641
http://www.china.org.cn/business/2010-02/02/content_19356083.htm
http://fistfulofeuros.net/afoe/chinas-looming-demographic-problem-moves-steadily-up-over-the-radar/
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/chinas-overhang-of-empty-apartments-2010-08-03

There are a shit tonne more articles, it's becoming more and more evident that China's massive growth over the past decade has really just been a string of massive bubbles, and they are going to need to collapse.

---

As for Africa, while there are a few companies there, namely mining companies, the amount of investment in African countries is minimal. FDI (the amount that foreign companies spend building factories, shops, infrastructure, etc) in last year across the African continent was roughly similar to just that of the UK.... and the UK had a /really/ bad year last year for FDI (it fell by half) - that's over a billion people, versus 60 million in the UK.

The problem is... if you were, say, Sony... why would you invest in Africa? Crime rates and war are major problems... no point spending billions on a new factory if it's got a high chance of being vandalised, burgled, or blown up. Once you get past that, you have an extremely-uneducated work force, meaning that you'd have to pay for all the education itself. You also can't rely on the electrical grid, or water supplies... so there's even more money that you'd have to spend, to become more independant. And how are you going to get materials into the factory/finished goods out? The roads are in poor condition, the ports and airports are outdated, under-resources, and severely lacking capacity. And, at every step of the way, you'll probably have to pay off a load of corrupt officials to keep it from happening.

The reason why you see mining companies operating in Africa is because the amount of profit they make, exceeds all of those costs I've highlighted above... very few industries offer the same kind of profit margins as oil and mining.

The only way Africa can move forward, is if they fix their governance. Fix corruption and reduce bureacracy so that the African entrepeneurs can start building businesses, end trade barriers between African nations to encourage trade, and facililate infrastructure sharing (rather than every country having to build their own world-class airports and ports), and spend money tackling crime and ending militant activity.

Couldn't of put it better myself.

I mean hell, not only is there way more people in Africa, there is just way more oppurtunity and resources.

Take the risk out of it, and you'd probably see a massive change for the better.

Emerging markets are all the rage now afterall.



dark_gh0st_b0y said:
it's way better for them to have no rights, i mean, the point is to consider them as normal people, not give them rights because they are ''different''


I don't get what you mean. these rights are meant to give them equal status with the rest of the population,not make them different. In some of these countries gay are threatened with death,how is this "considering them as normal people"? 



"They will know heghan belongs to the helghast"

"England expects that everyman will do his duty"

"we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"

 

SamuelRSmith said:
Player1x3 said:
SamuelRSmith said:
Player1x3 said:
SamuelRSmith said:
NKAJ said:
SamuelRSmith said:
ProdigyBam said:
He should care about persecuted christians first since most of the british people are christian and the culture is based on christian-judeo teachings, while at most 5-10% are homosexual, just saying..


His choice of protecting gay rights is clearly a movement to help him win public opinion. Protecting persecuted Christains would not do this, and would probably cause a massive media shit-storm.


Create a shit-storm where? Reading the daily mail it's pretty obvious that if anything, people were annoyed that funding would be based on gay rights rather than persecution of Christians. All I've read or heard for the last few months is people getting fed up because, in their view, minorities such as gays/muslims are given priority over the majority population.


The Daily Mail moan all the time, that's what they do as a paper. No, any kind of support for Christains will cause all sorts of anger amongst the left wing institutions - The Guardian will kick off first, and the Independant will probably have a lot to say about it. The BBC would pick up the story from these outlets, and it'll be a big deal. Anything that sees the Government supporting any kind religious activity will piss off the left.

Isnt that fascist? And why do christians in your country put up with that?

Isn't what fascist? Freedom of press? And the Christains put up with it because a) they're not a big political power in the UK (no religious institution is), and b) I don't think many Christains will feel their discriminated against... religion just isn't that bigger deal.


No, i wasn't talking about it, it just seemed kinda unfair. Muslims seem to get a lot more respect and support in both political and press issues, while Christians aren't allowed to have any (like you mentioned above) Freedom of press only applies when you dont put a picture of muhammad in the paper, does it? One must not anger muslims, but can lash the shit out of christians? And aren't christians a majority in england? They should stan up, if they feel mistreated

Muslims don't get much respect in the mainstream media, maybe from papers like The Guardian, but from the likes of the Daily Mail and other such outlets, there is some Islamaphobia.

The reason why Christains don't stand up, is because they're not mistreated. There would be uproar if the Government was to openly support /any/ religious ideal or institution. This is just a part of our culture. I know for a fact that many Christains would probably be annoyed if the Government were to openly support Christianity. Although our country is built on Christain ideals, and the Church of England has a role in our insitutions, any kind of direct involvement between Government and religion would not go down well in our country.

As for papers depicting images of the Prophet Mohammad, why do people not understand that it's offensive? Any images depicting the Prophet is forbidden by the religion. There are no laws forbidding the press from printing an image, but they choose not to. If there was a specific rule on the presentation of Jesus for Christainity, or whatever, the press would hopefully choose to stick to those rules. There is no real reason to break those rules, and they only cause anger and tension when broken. What good reason is there for printing a picture of the Prophet? Other than to stick the middle finger up?


I agree with all of it apart from the last part. People are offended by everything, if they don't like it they don't have to read it. It pisses me off when people find something offensive so they go and use violence to prove their point. If anything, all they are doing is strengthening the case for those who hate islam and say that it is a religion of violence. Even better is when these protesters are trying to argue that islam is a religion of peace and then go ballistic over a cartoon, creating violence ... 

I know that sometimes it's pointless to publish something which you know will probably be offensive, but unfortunately there will always be some who choose to do so. All the massive hysteria over the Danish cartoons achieved was more negative attitudes towards muslims, even though it was just a militant minority who caused the trouble.



"They will know heghan belongs to the helghast"

"England expects that everyman will do his duty"

"we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender"

 

well thats why i said corrupt african leaders are to blame as big as anyone,i mention corporate profits as a whole not just for africa but i agree with you about africa,still someone still makes alot of money getting the minerals out of there and onto the world market when it should benefit the country instead

i read that countries all over the world that have the mineral deposits teh world wants have tied themselves up on such long bad deals with companies that it makes no sense,i struggle to understand why this would happen but obvious corruption and the shadowy people keeping things crazy where they need it to be

on india and china,i am no economic expert at all and haven't read your articles but of course they will have social and economic problems as any country does and they are so massive it can be bad but surely they are only going to get richer and richer at the top which drives most things in modern economies as far as i can tell

what economic model is any good,,i'd imagine china and india will have soem gigantic struggles and issues between rulers and general public,workforce and the elite but who hasn't



                                                                                                                                        Above & Beyond

   

Around the Network
NKAJ said:


I agree with all of it apart from the last part. People are offended by everything, if they don't like it they don't have to read it. It pisses me off when people find something offensive so they go and use violence to prove their point. If anything, all they are doing is strengthening the case for those who hate islam and say that it is a religion of violence. Even better is when these protesters are trying to argue that islam is a religion of peace and then go ballistic over a cartoon, creating violence ...

I know that sometimes it's pointless to publish something which you know will probably be offensive, but unfortunately there will always be some who choose to do so. All the massive hysteria over the Danish cartoons achieved was more negative attitudes towards muslims, even though it was just a militant minority who caused the trouble.

I agree with you 100%. My point wasn't about whether or not papers should be able to print whatever, my point was that papers are still free to print it, they just choose not to. The other poster said "Freedom of press only applies when you dont put a picture of muhammad in the paper, does it?" I'm saying that Freedom of Press still applies, I just explained why they choose not to.

Self-censorship happens all the time in the media, the images of Muhammad is just one example that people are more aware about. Another one I can think of is water-boarding in American newspapers.  When certain papers talk about China waterboarding people, they use the word "torture", however, when they talk about the USA being engaged in waterboarding, they use the term "enhanced interrogation". This isn't because the US Government has made some kind of rule, the press are still free to call it torture, if they wish. They just engage in self-censorship, because they know that calling American water-boarding torture will be offensive to many readers (those who may have lost loved ones in terrorist attacks, or at war, etc).

One other example, off the top of my head, is how the Japanese media refuse to have any negative coverage of the sumo sport. Any allegation of corruption or cheating is completely ignored in the Japanese media, because they know that it could be very offensive to Japanese readers, as sumo is seen as "pure" in Japanese culture.



MrBubbles said:


and saying its forbidden in islam is like making generalizations about christianity based on the book of mormon.  also if we are going to get into it like that, the hadiths dont specifically forbid his picture.

Well, I think the key difference is that Sunni muslims make up the majority of the muslim population, whereas mormons don't. But, I'm not claiming to be some expert on Islam (I tried reading the Koran, got bored by the fifth page). I read into the hadiths, and you're right, it doesn't specifically forbid his picture.

That doesn't defract from the overall point I was trying to make, though, in response to his comment. Look at my above response to see the point I was trying to make.



NKAJ said:
SamuelRSmith said:
ProdigyBam said:
He should care about persecuted christians first since most of the british people are christian and the culture is based on christian-judeo teachings, while at most 5-10% are homosexual, just saying..


His choice of protecting gay rights is clearly a movement to help him win public opinion. Protecting persecuted Christains would not do this, and would probably cause a massive media shit-storm.


Create a shit-storm where? Reading the daily mail it's pretty obvious that if anything, people were annoyed that funding would be based on gay rights rather than persecution of Christians. All I've read or heard for the last few months is people getting fed up because, in their view, minorities such as gays/muslims are given priority over the majority population.

Really ? That's heart warming to read some people still use common sense.



PROUD MEMBER OF THE PSP RPG FAN CLUB

Kasz216 said:
sad.man.loves.vgc said:
Kasz216 said:

I think this is just a plan by David Cameron to slash the foreign aid budget.

On the one hand, it sounds like a good idea to try and force gay rights.

Though on the other hand, i worry about the Anti-UK blowback in countries where people will suddenly begin starving combined with cultures that wouldn't even recognize gay rights if they weren't ruled by autocrats.

One could even argue that by having it forced by another government, actual acceptence of such a law would take even longer.

Complicated issue.


Does he need excuses to cut foreign aid? Isn't it natural for anyone to want the money for their people? who would blame them really? sincere questions because the way you phrased it implies that he HAS TO give foreign aid.

Bolded: I agree. It's an interesting idea for sure but I don't think it will work. I mean even if it does social acceptance for such rights will require decades and decades. I also agree with the fact that forcing changes may have an opposite result. People are extremely intolerant to the westren values and they will reject them more if they get imposed upon them.

Despite all that, I say cut us off. Corruption rate in Jordan is ridiculous and we are not getting most of that money anyway.

Kind of an off-topic question (also for you Kaz)... How come forign aids are never mentioned in our books, news, newspapers or in any form? Shouldn't they let the people know that the west is actually helping us in somehow?  maybe that will help in closing gaps and raising tolerance and acceptance for the west.

1) You'd be surprised.  It could be different in the UK, but in the US only Ron Paul type libretarians want to cut foreign aid.

Republic and Democratic politicians see it as their duty as a more advanced country...

While the average voter either sees it  as needed charity work (Even a lot of below the poverty line people often give to charity)

or

Proof of America's "superiority" for the pessimistic side.

People seem more willing to give money to a starving African, then to a starving american because in general the american is perceived as at least has/had a chance.  Oddly pretty much anyone would cut Welfare programs before they cut foreign aid.

2)  Yeah, i probably agree... on both fronts as far as whether it should be cut off and whether it should help.  Applying basic civil rights for people is way more complicated then it should be, then again what isn't.

3)  There could be three reasons.  The first is... shame really.   I mean, who wants to admit they're accepting handouts from another country? 

The Second is the corruption.  Why advertise something when your stealing 90% of it. (A common foreign aid problem.)

The third is dislike of america can be a powerful tool.  In general American hate has made a great scapegoat for all kinds of rulers and their problems.

It's why I'm actually against most economic sanctions... pretty much all of them except military based ones.

All sanctions do is hurt the poor people since the rich corrupt people are rich, and can then just use the sanctions as an excuse for why things are bad for the poor.


I didn't realise you replied until now. Informative post as usual, thanks!



NiKKoM said:
Shouldn't he like... worry more about the UK first? >_>


have you been to the UK ? , not a single fuck was given to actual british citizens, only immagrants get all the love.

its a damn shame that i actually see a lot of times british hobos , begging immigrants that are drinking shisha for a couple of coins, in their own effing country , and those immigrants actually get more love from the governments that i myself can't dream of, free houses , free cars, monthly PCs, mobiles, internet services, and a job of their own choosing and a seperate salary for each child they make and each wife they have, it just piss me off, even though i am not british, i just can't tell how much  hate those hobos feel.

i don't really know the reason, but i think its because they want more of the working class.

UK is not for good ol' brits anymore, its filled with immigrants eating up the place inside out, raping it too much that you really can't tell its an english country anymore.