when comparing on track experience it's non negotiable, GT5 offers far more than Forza 4, Forza has better "fluff" but the sim aspecs is pushed far greater in GT5 considering the vast amounts on track content. No amount of car paint and Jeremy Clarkson can change that, no one is saying it's and arcade racer though, even though it has been proven to have permanent steering assist, and the lack of full 900% wheel rotation. It's good (played a bit at a friends house the other day) but not on the technical level of GT5. Raced around the ring in Forza 4 and I gotta say it isn't half as rough as it is in GT5.

and that's not including, GT5's Rain and Snow on tarmac/asphalt/dirt, Dirt road racing, Snow road racing, with the many different classes of cars non of which is provided in Forza 4. It just does so much more. You can't deny that

I just plain disagree. The way Forza 4 feels compared to GT5 is huge. Both feel like Sims, but the steering, traction, and performance feel better simulated in Forza 4 to me, and by a lot, not a little. I really don't car for weather, night racing, and watching sunsets in game. I care about how well the game performs under race conditions, and it's non nagotiable, Forza 4 does it without a drop in FPS, and without screen tearing.

I just plain disagree on the technical level. Had a friend who plays a lot of GT5 over today and he kept spinning out and crashing in an M3, a really easy car to drive in Forza 4. So obviously Forza 4 is a much more difficult game (and I say better sim) then GT5. Plain and simple.

In GT5, although I drive the same as I do in Forza 4, and replays show drama, I never feel it or have to nagotiate it. In Forza 4, when my MR car is drifting, I know it's drifitng, and have to catch the drift or I spin out. I just don't see that in GT5.

ethomaz thinks of Forza as an arcade racer. He has said many times that you can corner in Forza 3 without braking, which is just false.

GT5 has other game modes, but I only car for track simulation. GT5 does have rally driving, but it's less integrated then in previous GT games, and I'm sorry 630 Japanese cars? Forza has more cars from the rest of the world, in almost every region, country by country. I really don't care for low end Japanese sports cars from the 90's and the GT-R. GT5 has more content, but a poor car selection (Do I really need a 1972 Honda Odyssey?), and I've always been a quality over quantity type of person, so to me Forza 4 offers more because it does everything spot on.

Remember this isn't Forza 3 were talking about, it;s a whole new ball game.

Forza motorsport has 500 cars (rounded)

GT5 has 1000 cars (rounded)

subtract 630 from 1000 and you got 370

subtract 120 from 500 and you got 380

Forza has 10 more cars from other regions than GT

now stop bringing that up, seriously it's fucking annoying

edit: and what YOU don't care about in a racing sim =/= what the collective racing sim community doesn't cares about in a racing sim.

I just have to put in my 2 cents on the 1000 vs 500 cars thing.

F4 may have 500 cars and a good variety to choose from all over the world but because GT5 has a 1,000 cars it can afford to have a massive amount of Japanese cars whilst still having a lot of room for more variety. When it comes down to it i'm sure the variety of cars is about the same in both games, GT5 just has a lot more from certain regions.

Germany and Japan eh?

So? Whats wrong with Japanese cars? You have something against Japanese cars? I like Japanese cars.. I like japanese sports cars from the 90s and GT-R.

Just because YOU dont like it its instatly sucky? 

Watch it bro, your not only coming out as Biased but racist as well...

And Italian cars and we got teh Holy Trinity

HAHAHA! I forgot about that!

What an epic coincidence.

Although Italian cars probably aren't as common as French or US cars, still, they are considered the best of the best.

In my experience with the demo of F4 with all assists of, it is easier then GT5 with tire grip set to real. (which you don't get in the campaign btw) F4 is a lot more forgiving when you go over the edge of the track with 1 or 2 wheels.

I don't know what cars or pp range you drive Micheal-5, but I have to catch my drift all the time while racing online. The 400 degree turn on Cape ring is like balancing a knife on it's edge, that little transition half way all too easily puts your car off balance into a spin.

Anyway I find them pretty equal when on the track, GT5 more difficult when you touch the side of the track and of course when the track is accumulating water.

There's only a few cars in the demo to compare however, I'll get to F4 after the holiday season. The biggest draw to F4 for me are the tracks that GT5 doesn't have. Always looking for more tracks to race on.

Add 62 cars to GT5 with Spec 2.0 and DLC, and add 30 cars to Forza 4 (plus 10 cars a month).

All 410 of those non Japanese cars are premium quality in Forza 4, where over half the ones in GT5 are standard. It's a big deal. I'm a huge car nut and I'd like to race all the cars I like, not just a few of them.

I mean when you really get into GT5, you are missing a lot of really important cars. They don't have the 400HP V8 2009 Mustang (which is odd because it was a year old when the game released), You gon't have a single premium Aston Martin, Saleen, or Bugatti. No Aston Martin DBS or One-77, the Audi RS4 is 10 years old at newest, no Bugatti EB 110 S (The second hallmark Bugatti), no Cadillac CTS-V, Only 12 Ferrarri's (No F50, no FXX, F430, GTO, etc), Only 3 Mustangs despite nearly being on the market for 50 years, a severe lack of classic musscle cars, Not a single Koenigsegg, Only 7 Lambo and no Reventon, No Masarrati MC12 (The other car based on the Enzo), No benz DTM C Class (one of the fastest benz's), no black edition benz's, No street Panoz, No Saleen Raptor, and believe me I can go on.

GT5 has a really disspointing car roster if you ask me, and that's far more important then the inclusion of rain.

BTW, does it ever model snow on a track course, or just rally tracks?

Stop bringing up weather, and night racing it's a annoying. Right back at ya :P

Clearly we have different preferences in the game, that is why I always tried to drive the fact that Forza 4 and GT5 are similar quality. Get into the game, both are excellent sims, and both satify car enthusiasts in different ways. GT5 has different game types and some more dynamic gameplay features (weather, night, etc) while Forza 4 has a better car roster.

As for the sim itself. What I want is a responsive feel IMHO from playing both games a good amount.

• GT5 models FF car behaviour better, In Forza 4 small FF cars are too planted, and don't feel as front heavy until you corner fast.
• Forza 4 models MR car behaviour better. In MR cars, you need to mildly drift any wide turns to take advantage of the rear pushing usually 60/40 split weight difference. In GT5 and Forza I drift in both games mildly, but in GT5 I only notice it in engine stress, in Forza 4, you really need to apply counter steer at the right angle, and even then the tires are screeching. You do the drift just a bit wrong, and you can really slow down or spin out, but in GT5 it's more forgiving.
• Forza 4 also models FR cars better. The but end should come out when you corner and then apply throttle. That's how you initiate a drift. In GT5 you get a lot of leeway before you drift.
• GT5 models cornering while braking better. You feel the weight distribution make a bigger affect on braking then in Forza 4. However..
• Both games model braking equally well, but Forza does make a better noise when braking (you can hear the traction off independent tires more clearly, and there is brake pad squeel, which varries from car to car, and is loudest on old muscle cars.
• As for traction, both games have a real time tire deformation model, so it's probably about the same. I'd argue Forza is better as it's been touched up on for the last 5 years, but whatever
• and I guess the last thing is engine sound, which is much betteri n Forza, but this doesn't affect the cars behaviour so doesn't really count.