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Forums - General Discussion - What does being athiest mean to you?

Netyaroze said:
@sapphisnake

No you totaly misunderstand what falsifiability means. I am consistent its not my fault if you dont get it. Falsifiability doesnt apply to god. It doesnt mean that god doesnt exist because he is not falsifiable IT JUST MEANS ITS NOT SCIENTIFIC. Not everything that cant be falsified is wrong. Evolution for example CANT be practically falsified but is still right.

Now you say: " You said if something is unfalsifiable its not scientific"

Yes I said that and in 99% of all cases its true but if lot of things back up your theory it will be sooner or later regarded mainstream.

But even when there is no sign that your theory is right and its unfalsifiable it still doesnt mean its wrong. But scientists cant work with it because there is nothing to work on.

Religion didnt invent god its the same as saying the first human who used fire invented fire. Besides even tens of thousends of years ago humans buried their dead instead of leting them lie were they died. So long before there was any religion people had some sense of afterlife and probably god. God is a fundamental question. Everywere where there is intelligent life there is the question how did it all start.

To the article i could pick other ones but the point was the survey not the article. Scientists are less inclined to believe in god that doesnt mean they cant because it would be unscientific.

Lets recap falsifiability doesnt determin if something is wrong or right. Meaning something unfalsifiable can still be right. What it does determin is if scientists can work with it or not. Unless the concept is backed up by things that indicate its correct (like fossils). Even without indication a theory could still be right.

Thus scientist never say: "God is not real from a scientific standpoint" Because it would be stupid to say that there is nothing to back that claim up. And there never will be. Thus Scientists are allowed to believe in god without discrediting science.

Hopefully this was clear enough this time. I am practically saying the same thing over and over again. Besides do you think I dont know what I am talking about ? Do you think I would bring this stuff up when I am not sure that I am right ?

I've understood what falsifiability is really well. You appearently have not. And you seem to be terribly inconsistent. You link this whole concept, and when you realzie you have not understood it, and it actually goes against what you were arguing, you try to discredit both it and me. Also, evolution CAN be falsified:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objections_to_evolution#Unfalsifiability

There goes your argument.


But even when there is no sign that your theory is right and its unfalsifiable it still doesnt mean its wrong.

Really now? This theory would be just baseless guessing, which obviously holds no scientific value.

Religion didnt invent god its the same as saying the first human who used fire invented fire.

Bad analogy, as it's obvious that fire exists in nature. There's no proof god exists outside of human imagination. A more proper analogy would be religion invented god the same way people invented computers.

Besides even tens of thousends of years ago humans buried their dead instead of leting them lie were they died. So long before there was any religion people had some sense of afterlife and probably god. God is a fundamental question. Everywere where there is intelligent life there is the question how did it all start.

Burying dead bodies doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the afterlife. People started (erroneously) believing in the ideea of an afterlife when they started practicing agriculture, and they practiced burials way before that. Also, I don't see how believing in the existence of an afterlife proves that such a thing exists, when it's obviously just wishful thinking, and the incapability to accept human mortality. And god isn't a question, it's a made-up answer to a question that humans can't answer. And, other than humans, what other intelligent life you've seen ask such questions? Do dolphins ask such questions? Have you ever met aliens?

To the article i could pick other ones but the point was the survey not the article. Scientists are less inclined to believe in god that doesnt mean they cant because it would be unscientific.

People can believe whatever they want. Scientists generally try to avoid believing in things they know are not true, unlike most people. They still are people though.

Lets recap falsifiability doesnt determin if something is wrong or right. Meaning something unfalsifiable can still be right. What it does determin is if scientists can work with it or not. Unless the concept is backed up by things that indicate its correct (like fossils). Even without indication a theory could still be right.

You're recaping your own misuderstanding of this concept? What good will that do?

Thus scientist never say: "God is not real from a scientific standpoint" Because it would be stupid to say that there is nothing to back that claim up. And there never will be. Thus Scientists are allowed to believe in god without discrediting science.

Actually, scientists do say that. Heck, even one of the christian scientists mentioned in the article you provided says that. And it's already been  that god is an unfalsifiable concept, meaning that it can't possibly be considered true, from a logical/scientific standpoint.

Hopefully this was clear enough this time. I am practically saying the same thing over and over again. Besides do you think I dont know what I am talking about ? Do you think I would bring this stuff up when I am not sure that I am right ?

What is quite clear is that  you have no ideea what you're talking about. Your posts essentially proved that.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

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Look around you , your PC was made by logical cause-effect processes , was there someone behind it or was it by chance that some materials formed the parts such as motherboard and ram -because some kind of explosion- , and the all parts somehow got together perfectly, then also by chance a DVD was formed and has some kind of data that happened to run perfectly on that PC so you'd be able to play Half-Life2. chance can't make a perfect and precise system . I really hope that I made my point clear

BTW that of course brings a very valid question "How God was created then?", the answers to that are always personal conclusions , that God isn't bound by the the same natural laws that we have in our reality  , cause-effect process must have been started at some point , that point is God

Hope you don't mind me dropping in, but that's a perfect example of the problems you run in to when you are just looking at the end product. Man did not sit down and design the modern pc to play half-life 2. First we started playing with electricity, then figured out how to put switches in succession and how to make automatons. As well we figured out how to capture sound waves onto rolls of wax. From there it's evolution on steroids, going a million times faster. Good ideas thrive, while bad ones quickly become obsolete.

Chance is only a small part of evolution, competition is key.

A bit more on topic "cause-effect process must have been started at some point , that point is God" Does that mean you are calling the big bang, God? As far as science goes the questions what was before the big bang or where did the big bang happen are meaningless, since the current theory is that space and time were formed in the big bang leading to cause-effect processes.

I don't believe in god personally but also believe whether there is or is no God can't be proven. I think the same applies to free will and determinism. How can you be sure that 'you' are making decisions or that cause-effect is making them for you based on external influences adding up until you take action. The brain is evolved to find patterns and explanations to lead to better predictions and planning for better survival. Are we just witnissing this process or do you actually make decisions. How can you prove one or the other. Is there a difference.

Even if the big bang did happen it's still an effect ,what was the cause?  that's definitely not a meaningless question ,no answers even in theories ,as I said cause-effect process must have been started at some point ,that point is the cause of all causes which isn't bound by the natural laws, the ultimate Mind/power/free will ..that's what I mean by God. I won't say this is the only explanation that makes sense because that's just me

About what you said about our free will. I think you just need to make it more simple. If I offered you two kinds of fruit , an orange and a mango  , let's say you pick the orange , do you really think that you couldn't pick the mango whatsoever because there is an unbreakable process that determines everything ?. I think what troubles you that we lose our free will as soon as we choose something, you can no longer choose the mango after you've chosen the orange, look at it while you can still choose not after you've made the choice.

To be honest I have no idea how the big bang happened, or it is really was a start. Time goes funny near singularities. In another thread about black holes someone explained to me how it would be possible for black holes to be portals without our universe ever noticing any loss of mass. While reaching a black hole time stretches to infinity. Before you reach it from your perspective, our universe will be in infinitely in the past. Maybe something similar applies to the big bang.

My question about free will is not whether we have it or not, but how can you prove it. What's the difference between you choosing between an orange or a mango based on your current inner state, and a computer choosing between 2 alternatives based on a set of internal rules. You can think you could have chosen the alternative, but you didn't.

Without the added benefit of memory humans react pretty much the same way, when faced with the same stimuli. Even with memory it still happens. For example I made some home videos of our 1 year old son, and while we're watching it, my wife and I make the exact same statements at the same time as captured on the video. It's creepy. Sure the next time we watch we remeber and resist the urge but it's still there.



Hmm there is no point in arguing with you its complety useless you seem awfully sure and since I dont know what I am talking about post all you said in a science forum lets see what the folks over there say.

You are not able to grasp the concept of falsifiability I never said and noone else either on this planet that it determines whats true or not. It determins if science can work with it. Something unfalsifiable can still be theoretically right.

If god exists he existed before so my analogy was right. The greeks gave it a name way before but they didnt invent atoms just because they named it.

To burials it would be unnecessary to give the dead personal belongings without thinking they might use it later.

I am sorry for you that you have to twist things you dont fully understand in a way to make it fit in your static world view. I understand people dont like to be wrong but going as far as changing reality to make it seem like they are right?

I truly hope you will get more informed about Falsifiability.

Besides evolution is unfalsifiable the main problem is the interpretation you can interprete it in a way that makes it hard to say iif its unfalsifiable. A lot of creationists do to declare it as unscientific which ofcourse dont work because its plausible:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Disproving_evolution

But THAT DOESNT MAKE IT WRONG EVOLUTION IS RIGHT.

What your problem is is that your conclusion you make is valid but the argument with via Falsifiability is wrong. You can t say God cant be true because you cant falsify him. Because thats factually wrong Falsifiability doesnt determin if something is wrong or right.

HOWEVER you can say this:

"An unfalsifiable theory makes no predictions. There?s nothing you could ever observe that would be inconsistent with it. In other words, the world where the theory is true appears exactlyidentical to the world where the theory is false. The theory tells you nothing about the world, and nothing in the world tells you about the theory. So, there is no reason to believe."

There is no reason to believe, note on atheism forums most people would never argue like you did because its logically wrong.

"Really now? This theory would be just baseless guessing, which obviously holds no scientific value."

IYes its baseless guessing and holds NO scientific value I said that million times by using the term unscientific. You cant say if its wrong or right THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF FALSIFIABILITY. God CAN still exist there is just no reason to believe in him same as there is no reason NOT TO believe in him. If there would be a reason not to believe in him then it means god was falsified but you cant do that because he is not falsifiable and out of reach for science thus it allows scientists to believe in god.



Netyaroze said:
Hmm there is no point in arguing with you its complety useless you seem awfully sure and since I dont know what I am talking about post all you said in a science forum lets see what the folks over there say.

You are not able to grasp the concept of falsifiability I never said and noone else either on this planet that it determines whats true or not. It determins if science can work with it. Something unfalsifiable can still be theoretically right.

If god exists he existed before so my analogy was right. The greeks gave it a name way before but they didnt invent atoms just because they named it.

To burials it would be unnecessary to give the dead personal belongings without thinking they might use it later.

I am sorry for you that you have to twist things you dont fully understand in a way to make it fit in your static world view. I understand people dont like to be wrong but going as far as changing reality to make it seem like they are right?

I truly hope you will get more informed about Falsifiability.

Besides evolution is unfalsifiable the main problem is the interpretation you can interprete it in a way that makes it hard to say iif its unfalsifiable. A lot of creationists do to declare it as unscientific which ofcourse dont work because its plausible:

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Disproving_evolution

But THAT DOESNT MAKE IT WRONG EVOLUTION IS RIGHT.

What your problem is is that your conclusion you make is valid but the argument with via Falsifiability is wrong. You can t say God cant be true because you cant falsify him. Because thats factually wrong Falsifiability doesnt determin if something is wrong or right.

HOWEVER you can say this:

"An unfalsifiable theory makes no predictions. There?s nothing you could ever observe that would be inconsistent with it. In other words, the world where the theory is true appears exactlyidentical to the world where the theory is false. The theory tells you nothing about the world, and nothing in the world tells you about the theory. So, there is no reason to believe."

There is no reason to believe, note on atheism forums most people would never argue like you did because its logically wrong.

"Really now? This theory would be just baseless guessing, which obviously holds no scientific value."

IYes its baseless guessing and holds NO scientific value I said that million times by using the term unscientific. You cant say if its wrong or right THATS THE WHOLE POINT OF FALSIFIABILITY. God CAN still exist there is just no reason to believe in him same as there is no reason NOT TO believe in him. If there would be a reason not to believe in him then it means god was falsified but you cant do that because he is not falsifiable and out of reach for science thus it allows scientists to believe in god.

I don't twist anything to fit my worldview, you do, as evidence by the link you provided, which essentially says that evolution CAN be falsified, not that it's accepted because it's 'plausible'. Honestly, do you even read what you link? And that's  not the only thing wrong with this massive and horrendeous post. IOut of  all the people I've ever talked to on this site, you seem to be by far the least deserving of any attention. Have a nice life.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

Nice life to you too.