VXIII said:
SvennoJ said:
VXIII said:
Look around you , your PC was made by logical cause-effect processes , was there someone behind it or was it by chance that some materials formed the parts such as motherboard and ram -because some kind of explosion- , and the all parts somehow got together perfectly, then also by chance a DVD was formed and has some kind of data that happened to run perfectly on that PC so you'd be able to play Half-Life2. chance can't make a perfect and precise system . I really hope that I made my point clear
BTW that of course brings a very valid question "How God was created then?", the answers to that are always personal conclusions , that God isn't bound by the the same natural laws that we have in our reality , cause-effect process must have been started at some point , that point is God
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Hope you don't mind me dropping in, but that's a perfect example of the problems you run in to when you are just looking at the end product. Man did not sit down and design the modern pc to play half-life 2. First we started playing with electricity, then figured out how to put switches in succession and how to make automatons. As well we figured out how to capture sound waves onto rolls of wax. From there it's evolution on steroids, going a million times faster. Good ideas thrive, while bad ones quickly become obsolete.
Chance is only a small part of evolution, competition is key.
A bit more on topic "cause-effect process must have been started at some point , that point is God" Does that mean you are calling the big bang, God? As far as science goes the questions what was before the big bang or where did the big bang happen are meaningless, since the current theory is that space and time were formed in the big bang leading to cause-effect processes.
I don't believe in god personally but also believe whether there is or is no God can't be proven. I think the same applies to free will and determinism. How can you be sure that 'you' are making decisions or that cause-effect is making them for you based on external influences adding up until you take action. The brain is evolved to find patterns and explanations to lead to better predictions and planning for better survival. Are we just witnissing this process or do you actually make decisions. How can you prove one or the other. Is there a difference.
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Even if the big bang did happen it's still an effect ,what was the cause? that's definitely not a meaningless question ,no answers even in theories ,as I said cause-effect process must have been started at some point ,that point is the cause of all causes which isn't bound by the natural laws, the ultimate Mind/power/free will ..that's what I mean by God. I won't say this is the only explanation that makes sense because that's just me
About what you said about our free will. I think you just need to make it more simple. If I offered you two kinds of fruit , an orange and a mango , let's say you pick the orange , do you really think that you couldn't pick the mango whatsoever because there is an unbreakable process that determines everything ?. I think what troubles you that we lose our free will as soon as we choose something, you can no longer choose the mango after you've chosen the orange, look at it while you can still choose not after you've made the choice.
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To be honest I have no idea how the big bang happened, or it is really was a start. Time goes funny near singularities. In another thread about black holes someone explained to me how it would be possible for black holes to be portals without our universe ever noticing any loss of mass. While reaching a black hole time stretches to infinity. Before you reach it from your perspective, our universe will be in infinitely in the past. Maybe something similar applies to the big bang.
My question about free will is not whether we have it or not, but how can you prove it. What's the difference between you choosing between an orange or a mango based on your current inner state, and a computer choosing between 2 alternatives based on a set of internal rules. You can think you could have chosen the alternative, but you didn't.
Without the added benefit of memory humans react pretty much the same way, when faced with the same stimuli. Even with memory it still happens. For example I made some home videos of our 1 year old son, and while we're watching it, my wife and I make the exact same statements at the same time as captured on the video. It's creepy. Sure the next time we watch we remeber and resist the urge but it's still there.
