sapphi_snake said:
Farmageddon said:
1. There sure is a big difference between disliking to see guys hook up and flat out not wanting gays around, don't you think?
And hook up is porpusefully vague. As I was pointing out, the more extreme the worse. In most cases it's not really a problem. But two guys having sex in front of me would be on one end of the spectrum, yes. Would it be ok to me not to like that though, or am I a filty homophobe for that?
2. You completely missed my point. It's not about slavery apologetics, or denying the harm done to this or that people, or pretending no one suffered and no one gained with it.
It's about the fact that people have done this kind of thing forever. Slavery, wars, they are not the invention of any race, they are human nature trhown in bigger numbers. Does that mean we shouldn't care about the suffering and fight those practices? Hell no, but understanding them and accepting that which makes them be as part of our nature, using these big brains of ours is the first step to actually changing something. But this is besides the point.
Being ashamed for something an ancestor of yours did in a time and a culture when anyone, including the offended, would have done the very same given the opportunity is just ignorant. Thinking you're entitled to something just because someone upper in your family tree suffered is just as ridiculous.
Do I mean all affirmative actions are bad? Not really, that's not what I'm saying. But not all black people today, for example, are actually considerably affected by their color. Actually, most are not in many (most?) places, so why should they still be seen as victims? And why should people who haven't, and wouldn't hurt them be seen as guilty?
Here in Brazil poor people who have also taken public education have some programs to make their access to universities easier, one of them in the form of quotas. Then black people, of all incomes and schools, have something similar and, on top of that, the two are not exclusive, so a black guy who's poor and has taken public education has a huge advantage.
Why is that? Why should he have more incentive than a white poor kid? Is there really any considerable descrimination still going on against him? Not really. Some isolated cases, sure, but are we gona have quotas for anyone who is given trouble now and then for something intrinsic to them? Because that's a lot of people, and most don't really fit in a neat little group. And what about fat kids, bullied kids, kids with too much acne or who are too shy? What's, in practice, the difference? I will tell you what it is, the latter kids get away more shit than the avarage black ones, and more constantly.
So yeah, again, there is such a thing as over-victimisation and yes, people can ride it and take benefit, and that's people from all races and religions and orientations and opinions and tastes. I really don't see how anyone could deny that.
3. Please, you're just being too sensitive. People disagree with other's virtues, that's just life. Learning to live with it is all one can do.
Simple observation shows that disagreement doesn't have to lead to discrimination, you just can't argue with that.
Also, do you realise the gay kid torments its parents just as much? Sure, it all sucks, boohoo, that's the burden of being different, and it shouldn't be a problem, a social problem that is, unless it's taken too far.
Now you're gonna tell me it has been taken too far. And it's true, but it's also got nothing to do with what I'm asserting, that such a thing as respectfull disagreement exists in practice.
4. pride
noun /prīd/
prides, plural
A feeling or deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired
- - the team was bursting with pride after recording a sensational victory
- - a woman who takes great pride in her appearance
I don't see how not being made to be ashamed of yourself gets in the way of being proud, that's all I was pointing out.
I understand it in the sense that you only "need' a movement to validate your pride (as opposed to simply celebrating it) if such pride is widely denied, and that it has been used as a way to find acceptance, and that in that sense it would make no sense to people whose pride is already validated. Granted. But that doesn't mean you can't be proud or celebrate such pride.
Personally I find it stupid to parade one's proud wither way. Besides I don't even get how anyone could be proud of something like their sexual orientation, wathever it may be. I don't buy into national pride either for that matter. So yeah, w/e :P
5. Btw, isn't it your position that people whose ancestors have "done bad" (as if that would leave anyone out) should be ashamed of it as to never repeat what has happened?
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1. Well, the thing is that I understand how that would make you uncomfortable. At the same time, straight people do it all the time. Does it bother you when a guy or a girl hook up? Remember, gays are a minority. Most of the people are straight, and the fear that they make the people around them uncomfortable is a big reason why gays often feel alienated. At the end of the day, it doesn't hurt you if you try to make them feel more accepted (you're free to dislike them having sex in front of you though  ).
2. The fact that people have practiced slavery forever doesn't excuse white people from doing it. Heck, if I shoot someone, saying 'people have been shooting eachother for centuries', isn't gonna get me off the hook, is it?
Aslo, slavery has ramifications that still affect the former slave populations even today. When your current situation is the result of the slavery forced upon your ancestors, you can be sure that you do deserve compensation of some sort from society.
3. How are gay kids 'tormenting' their parents? Because of who they are? Well, tough for the parents. Children are their own people, not some little toys for the amusement of grown ups. It's their responsability to love them and accept them for who they are. People are so selfish when they have kids...
4. The reason why sexual orientation is something to be 'proud' about is actually the fault of heterosexuals. They're the ones who took people's sexual preferences and labeled their own as 'good', and those who were not their own as 'bad'. Ultimately, I think that who you're attracted to should be just a big a deal as what type of fruit you like to eat. Sadly, the world is what it is, and sexual orientation ( a concept invented in the 19th century to further asses the superiority of those who are attracted to the opposite sex, and the inferiority of who don't) is a major point used to differentiate humans, and ignoring this fact doesn't make it go away.
The entire point of gay pride is the coutner the persecution homosexuals have recieved. 'Straight pride' is pointless, because heterosexuality has been and still is constantly elogiated, every single day. 'Straight pride' is not only a pleonasm, but a form of heterosexualism and gay bashing.
5. Yes, it is. Why do you ask?
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1. Thanks, I was afraid you might not allow me even that :P
But no, i'm not generaly unconfortable with heterosexual sex being made in front of me. I loose points for that don't I?
Of course it doesn't hurt to make people, any one, feel more accepted. But it's simply to naive for anyone to expect it to be his right that nobody dislikes anything about them. Just because it concerns a "minority" it's sudenly much more important when the same thing can apply to much more people not defined that way.
Actually, it's funny that minorities can't be too small if they are to get all this special treatment. I can see the practical side of that, but truth is we'll always have differences and that's why I think it's stupid to try and frigthen and shame people for specific feelings about an specific issue while there are many, many more nameless minorities out there.
The focus should simply be tolerance. Dislike as much as you please, but respect and behave. No one should feel entitled to give anyone else shit for not wanting to be friends, that's just fricking ridiculous. Thankfully though, most people don't really have a problem having gay friends, so it's even more ridiculous, it's giving people shit for disliking an aspect of a part of something you are while still holding you in high regard. Shit, that describes how I feel about every single friend I have, why does it have to become a big deal when it comes to defined characteristics?
I realise these characteristics have been specifically harassed and since they create a relatively big group with a huge anti-group that felt strong about it the situation goes to new levels. But the problem has never been the dislike itself, but the way people acted on it. And they didn't act just because they disliked it, but out of shock and fear and ignorance. The thing that should stop those from happening, of course, is an open, tolerant mind, not shame.
I think it's important here to remember that the situation as I see it today and the situation as it was in the not so distant past are two very different beasts, and that most of what I say refers to the former.
2. Have you even read what I wrote? I opened with:
"You completely missed my point. It's not about slavery apologetics, or denying the harm done to this or that people, or pretending no one suffered and no one gained with it."
You opened your rebutal with:
"The fact that people have practiced slavery forever doesn't excuse white people from doing it."
oO
No it's not ok for you to shoot anyone, but should your grandchildren be made to feel ashamed of who they are if you do that? Are they guilty? And say you shot a guy who also intended to kill you, should this guy's grandchildren be seen as poor santified victims?
When you have very little discrimination, the effect comes from starting conditions. It comes from being born poor and that's it. Now sure, they were born poor in that location in part because of the intervention of slavers. I guess they'd be much better off in Africa.
Everyone's life is a consequency of history, if we start repaying for things that happened to people who are not even alive, done by people not even alive, we're never stopping. Everyone will be paying and receiving. We shouldn't try to be so politicaly correct and intangible, but more practical, tackling problems that actually exist right now and the reasons for them to be instead of some ghost.
See, if you take a white kid who has studied in a shity private school for just a few years in early grades, but had an abusive father who beat him and his family down all the time and maybe raped his siter now and then before eventually being arrested, leaving his mother an alcohoolic whore until she comitted suicide, this kid has ZERO right to the quotas I mentioned earlier.
Now take a rich black kid, son of doctors, who has never really been discriminated or ostracized and always studied in the best schools and had the best preparatory courses avaiable. He has acces to those quotas.
Now, tell me, how is this fair again?
We're fucking capitalists. We have a social debt with EVERYONE not rich for that matter.
But again, my main point that you seem to have missed was simply victims are not always that pure, so if you want go get people guilt ridden, you'd better be careful not to be hipocritical.
3. I guess when you have a deep conviction rooted in your being that your beloved kid is bound to spend the rest of eternity suffering beyond imagination that might be just a bit tormenting. But what do they know right, they're just religious nuts, let's pretend what they feel is any less real because of that.
Of course that's just a single exemple, and I do agree people are selfish and not always great parents.
Anyway, the main part of this point, which you haven't addressed in the last reply, has kind of been fused with point one, so let's try to cut this down shall we? :P
4. Yup, I was just point out requesting acceptance of one's pride and being proud are two different things.
5. first you tell me people can only have "something pride" if thry are first made by others to feel bad about it. Then you tell me people whose ancestors did anything wrong - and ancestors shouldn't be read strictly, as in just blood mattering - should be made to feel ashamed. I believe you know where I'm going with this :P
