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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Why do developers act like Nintendo fans are obligated to buy their shitty games?

RolStoppable said:
gumby_trucker said:

No, but a service should do as much as possible to promote transparency in order to help a product find its audience. Games that are scored 8-10 in reviews are more likely to sell based on the review alone. But games scoring 5-8 are more likely to be treated with caution by the informed consumer, as well as be ignored more often by the remaining consumers due to little word of mouth.

I'm sure every one of us has been in the situation where a demo of a niche game persuaded us to purchase it, despite not looking particularly appealing based on screenshots or reviews. Many times a product is released that is mediocre due to time/budget constraints, but even a small level of success could be enough to allow the developer to make a higher quality game next time, not to mention invest some of that profit into patching and polishing the already released game, which is something you can't even do on Nintendo platforms...

The hard-headed mentality of "only excellent developers are welcome here" does very little to encourage growth on Nintendo platforms. If you're already an excellent developer, chances are you're doing fine on an alternate platform and have been for some time, in which case you don't NEED Nintendo's silly restrictions... These restrictions are only useful if they help create new markets, but new markets don't usually start out with AAA levels of success.

I think this why many small developers see Nintendo environments as hostile, and I can't really blame them.

But the thing is that developers can put up demos of their games, they just choose against doing so. Why that is I have already outlined in the post you originally quoted. Also, WiiWare (and Virtual Console) games have received patches. Of course those were only about fixing obvious bugs like crashes and not about rushing a game to market only to fix, for example, some glaring balancing issues later on.

The biggest problem of WiiWare is actually the Virtual Console. Developers have to compete with some of the best games of all time.

Out of interest, what are some developers that deserved better, but didn't get the sales due to the way WiiWare is set up?

Nintendo have allowed demos as well as patches on a few rare occasions, but like anything Nintendo isn't determined to do, it was a classic half-assed case of 'too little, too late'.  Developers still have nearly no control whatsoever of the amount of exposure their games receive on the service, as well as no option to respond to criticism and demands from the market. Tying their hands in such a manner is simply absurd, and counter productive to everybody, including the consumer.

Examples of developers that deserved better include Way Forward with their game LIT - this is a game that was released with some control issues early on in WiiWare's life. It was clearly a game that had effort put into it, but due to some of its problems was not recommended by some reviewers. The European release, which came a bit later, actually had many of these problems addressed, but Nintendo wouldn't allow the team to patch the American release to include the improvements made later down the line. This is a silly and stupid decision, considering the quality of the product and level of commitment the developer has to Nintendo platforms.

Another example is of course Team Meat - say what you will about them, but at the end of the day these are two really inexperienced developers who apparently made a superb game, and deserve to reap the rewards from it! A classic example of what Nintendo had in mind when they created WiiWare to begin with. But instead of the filesize limit helping to level the playing fields between smaller and larger developers, it worked against them in this case, as I'm sure it did in the case of many other developers who weren't as vocal. The idea that lesser experienced developers can be just as good at squeezing their game into a minuscule forty megs as more proficient ones is also absurd and counter productive if any thought is given to it!

Another example of a committed developer who wasn't given the freedom it deserved was Tell Tale. These guys released no less than TEN (!) good quality games on WiiWare, and obviously where held back by the size restriction. As if that wasn't enough, while they could offer sales and even reduce the price of their games on any other platform, they had no control either of initial pricing or changes in price according to market trends on WiiWare. This created the ridiculous situation where you could buy their games on PC or PS360 and get a better experience for LESS MONEY! Why anyone would purchase them from WiiWare at this point is beyond me... Obviously, sales suffered as a result.

Yet another committed developer who was given the shaft when it came to WiiWare was High Voltage with the game 'Animales de la Muerte'. Once again, your personal opinion about the developer or the game matters not, this was a product with a following who was eager to play it and the game was practically finished!

I can go on and mention other cases of games that offered something interesting and had effort put into them, but could have used a few additional months of polish in order to live up to their potential (HoopWorld, 3D Pixel Racing, etc) but I think you get the general idea.

Not every bad game released on the system was made by EVIL DEVELOPERS out to screw over Nintendo or the innocent consumer. Some of the games that failed commercially generated actual interest from fans, but where gimped in one way or another that was either out of the developer's control, or where not allowed to be repaired once the criticism was more obvious.

If you take a look at how these kinds of issues are handled on Steam, for example, the difference is like night and day!

Patching is simple, pricing is flexible, sales are frequent and every game has its own dedicated forum which the developers visit often in order to hear complaints from fans and issue fixes accordingly. This translates into better sales in the short term, and better communication between devs and consumers in the long term, both of which are essential in maintaining a healthy, growing market.

To conclude, let me just state that this was obviously also a symptom of retail games both for Wii and DS (and no, DS demos don't count if you have to buy a $250 console to experience them yourself!), and that creating such high levels of fear and doubt amongst developers and publishers can go against common business sense if taken to the extreme. Of course all of this doesn't mean 3rd parties don't have a lot to be blamed for too, but that topic has been discussed to death.



Until you've played it, every game is a system seller!

the original trolls

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one more thing I forgot to mention about VC, is that I don't recall seeing any numbers backing your claim that VC is more popular than WW, or that the sales are better. Correct me if I'm wrong.

At least this is a matter Nintendo are FINALLY addressing with the removal of the two separate categories. Why they can't do this on Wii as well I can only attribute to cluelessness and/or laziness.



Until you've played it, every game is a system seller!

the original trolls

Wii FC: 4810 9420 3131 7558
MHTri: name=BOo BoO/ID=BZBLEX/region=US

mini-games on consoles, cinematic games on handhelds, what's next? GameBoy IMAX?

Official Member of the Pikmin Fan Club

gumby_trucker said:
one more thing I forgot to mention about VC, is that I don't recall seeing any numbers backing your claim that VC is more popular than WW, or that the sales are better. Correct me if I'm wrong.

At least this is a matter Nintendo are FINALLY addressing with the removal of the two separate categories. Why they can't do this on Wii as well I can only attribute to cluelessness and/or laziness.

I think it would be a matter of course that VC sells better than WiiWare. All three Super Mario Bros games, all the major Zelda games (i think, is Adventure of Link on there?) Metroid and Super Metroid, the NES classics, Mario Kart 64, the Genesis Sonic titles and some classic Bomberman games are both far more recognizable and out-and-out better games than anything that ends up on any of the three digital services today



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Because people buy their shitty games on the other 3 platforms as well.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

RolStoppable said:
Mr Khan said:

To be fair, the article was only part of one example, and we fast went off-topic to discuss the treatment of retail developers, who deserve many of the harsh words given here. Nintendo's online service is poorly developed with the threshold system (though given how much people bitch about "how much shovelware there is on Nintendo systems" it's hard to wonder that they're not imposing punitive quality controls somewhere), but i would agree that the bigger issue is the utter lack of promotion that WiiWare games receive, both in promotional pricing and just in awareness creation altogether

It is hard to understand why Nintendo can't just copy what they see the competitors are doing, at least when the competitors practices are actually beneficial (and not just core-beneficial), which is definitely the case when you compare WiiWare to XBLA or PSN Games

The biggest issue are third party developers themselves. Nintendo made it possible to put up demos, but that chance was of course only used by developers this could have been beneficial for, in other words the few who actually made good games. If you ever paid attention to WiiWare, you will have noticed that out of the available demos more than 90 % were for games that fall in the top 10 % of quality that is available on WiiWare. Developers like Icon Games would not provide demos, because they are dependent on people buying the cat in the bag. For such developers it is for the best if people know as little as possible about the quality of their game and a demo is completely counterproductive.

If there really was a serious problem with WiiWare, then how come that the good developers who were right there from the start are still here today? Obviously because they managed to succeed. Why? Because over time the shovelware got increasingly ignored and the actually good games garnered the sales. That's the exact same thing that happened in the retail sector.

I dont know what games you've been playing but i played alot of crap demos on WiiWare. some generic weak kart racer, a horrible fishing game, a so-so platformer starring a damn sentient ball of something. The only thing i can see that was actually quality was the bit trip games. Unlike the other services they have games for just about every game they release online AND retail. THe fact is that there are very little WiiWare demos in the first place. Forget the retail games. And if there not that much demos and Ninty percent of those demos were of high quality then the WiiWare service has a truly abysmal line up of actual good games



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RolStoppable said:
gumby_trucker said:

Nintendo have allowed demos as well as patches on a few rare occasions, but like anything Nintendo isn't determined to do, it was a classic half-assed case of 'too little, too late'.  Developers still have nearly no control whatsoever of the amount of exposure their games receive on the service, as well as no option to respond to criticism and demands from the market. Tying their hands in such a manner is simply absurd, and counter productive to everybody, including the consumer.

Examples of developers that deserved better include Way Forward with their game LIT - this is a game that was released with some control issues early on in WiiWare's life. It was clearly a game that had effort put into it, but due to some of its problems was not recommended by some reviewers. The European release, which came a bit later, actually had many of these problems addressed, but Nintendo wouldn't allow the team to patch the American release to include the improvements made later down the line. This is a silly and stupid decision, considering the quality of the product and level of commitment the developer has to Nintendo platforms.

Another example is of course Team Meat - say what you will about them, but at the end of the day these are two really inexperienced developers who apparently made a superb game, and deserve to reap the rewards from it! A classic example of what Nintendo had in mind when they created WiiWare to begin with. But instead of the filesize limit helping to level the playing fields between smaller and larger developers, it worked against them in this case, as I'm sure it did in the case of many other developers who weren't as vocal. The idea that lesser experienced developers can be just as good at squeezing their game into a minuscule forty megs as more proficient ones is also absurd and counter productive if any thought is given to it!

Another example of a committed developer who wasn't given the freedom it deserved was Tell Tale. These guys released no less than TEN (!) good quality games on WiiWare, and obviously where held back by the size restriction. As if that wasn't enough, while they could offer sales and even reduce the price of their games on any other platform, they had no control either of initial pricing or changes in price according to market trends on WiiWare. This created the ridiculous situation where you could buy their games on PC or PS360 and get a better experience for LESS MONEY! Why anyone would purchase them from WiiWare at this point is beyond me... Obviously, sales suffered as a result.

Yet another committed developer who was given the shaft when it came to WiiWare was High Voltage with the game 'Animales de la Muerte'. Once again, your personal opinion about the developer or the game matters not, this was a product with a following who was eager to play it and the game was practically finished!

I can go on and mention other cases of games that offered something interesting and had effort put into them, but could have used a few additional months of polish in order to live up to their potential (HoopWorld, 3D Pixel Racing, etc) but I think you get the general idea.

Not every bad game released on the system was made by EVIL DEVELOPERS out to screw over Nintendo or the innocent consumer. Some of the games that failed commercially generated actual interest from fans, but where gimped in one way or another that was either out of the developer's control, or where not allowed to be repaired once the criticism was more obvious.

If you take a look at how these kinds of issues are handled on Steam, for example, the difference is like night and day!

Patching is simple, pricing is flexible, sales are frequent and every game has its own dedicated forum which the developers visit often in order to hear complaints from fans and issue fixes accordingly. This translates into better sales in the short term, and better communication between devs and consumers in the long term, both of which are essential in maintaining a healthy, growing market.

To conclude, let me just state that this was obviously also a symptom of retail games both for Wii and DS (and no, DS demos don't count if you have to buy a $250 console to experience them yourself!), and that creating such high levels of fear and doubt amongst developers and publishers can go against common business sense if taken to the extreme. Of course all of this doesn't mean 3rd parties don't have a lot to be blamed for too, but that topic has been discussed to death.

I can't say I have sympathy with these people, at least not in these specific cases. Steam is of course more flexible, because it's Valve's only platform.

There are hardly any numbers for download services on consoles available and the ones that are are usually based on leaderboards. That being said, I don't think it's far fetched that the bestselling VC games have crossed the 500k mark and when you have developers like Icon Games complaining about a treshold of 5k units, then it's pretty obvious that WiiWare gets crushed in terms of sales numbers. Can't blame consumers for that, because the Virtual Console has far better games for the same amount of money. Nintendo could have demos, patches and no size limits all in one place, but for third parties to be happy, Nintendo would also need to remove the VC service altogether.

I don't know where you are getting it from that VC and xWare aren't separate categories anymore. They sure still are on the 3DS.

Sorry for the comparible short reply.

But isnt that what Ninty (supposedly) did?? At least lowered the volume of games the VC service was getting??? ANd i dont think that worked out to well. People are not that stupid. If the games suck (which they do for the most part IMHO), no one will buy them. VC did not and does not have anything to do with how games perform on the WiiWare. You keep trying to downplay size limits, patches, demos and basic exposure like they dont mean anything. The fact is that the size limit sucks, the lack of demos  suck, the lack of specials suck. Ironically the other services all do well and their customers reap the benefits



Hephaestos said:

I agree with the 3rd party make no effort aspect... heck even the square outings were disappointing on Wii, when they should have had an easy time.

Capcom though I can't agree. Yes they put the Wii on the second plane... but they still released a lot more of quality titles than others.
And no RE:UC was not a test title. It came out early in the Wii's life when there weren't many rail shooters, a genre that just felt natural for the wii remote. You can't call that putting out crap on the console when they carter to a yet unchartered aspect of the console's controls. The game itself was incredibly long for a rails shooter, with some re-playability and a local 2 player mode. I'm a rail shooter fan and I liked RE:UC. The real test game for RE if there was any was RE4... which incidentally sold well.

Test games in the rail shooter genre are stuff like Dead Space... that you don't even understand why it's on Wii in the first place.


Whats not to understand, both RE rail shooters sold well, hell HOD 2&3 sold millions and that was just a dirty port. Not to mention the wiimote makes games like this much easier to make than before now that the devs dont have to worry if the customer has a guncon or whatever the hell else



Mr Khan said:
gumby_trucker said:
one more thing I forgot to mention about VC, is that I don't recall seeing any numbers backing your claim that VC is more popular than WW, or that the sales are better. Correct me if I'm wrong.

At least this is a matter Nintendo are FINALLY addressing with the removal of the two separate categories. Why they can't do this on Wii as well I can only attribute to cluelessness and/or laziness.

I think it would be a matter of course that VC sells better than WiiWare. All three Super Mario Bros games, all the major Zelda games (i think, is Adventure of Link on there?) Metroid and Super Metroid, the NES classics, Mario Kart 64, the Genesis Sonic titles and some classic Bomberman games are both far more recognizable and out-and-out better games than anything that ends up on any of the three digital services today

pretty bold statement considering you do no own all three consoles, what are you basing your opinion on??? Nostalgia??



RolStoppable said:
oniyide said:

I dont know what games you've been playing but i played alot of crap demos on WiiWare. some generic weak kart racer, a horrible fishing game, a so-so platformer starring a damn sentient ball of something. The only thing i can see that was actually quality was the bit trip games. Unlike the other services they have games for just about every game they release online AND retail. THe fact is that there are very little WiiWare demos in the first place. Forget the retail games. And if there not that much demos and Ninty percent of those demos were of high quality then the WiiWare service has a truly abysmal line up of actual good games

You've been caught repeatedly not knowing what's going on on WiiWare, so why should it be any different now?

oh please go ahead and debunk me then. THE fact is that there are little demos for the WIIWare. THere are virtual no retail demos, fact. For a long time there were no demos at ALL for WiiWare, fact. Do the research and tell me im wrong. i played some demos i found the games to be crappy, if you like em, good for you



oniyide said:
Mr Khan said:
gumby_trucker said:
one more thing I forgot to mention about VC, is that I don't recall seeing any numbers backing your claim that VC is more popular than WW, or that the sales are better. Correct me if I'm wrong.

At least this is a matter Nintendo are FINALLY addressing with the removal of the two separate categories. Why they can't do this on Wii as well I can only attribute to cluelessness and/or laziness.

I think it would be a matter of course that VC sells better than WiiWare. All three Super Mario Bros games, all the major Zelda games (i think, is Adventure of Link on there?) Metroid and Super Metroid, the NES classics, Mario Kart 64, the Genesis Sonic titles and some classic Bomberman games are both far more recognizable and out-and-out better games than anything that ends up on any of the three digital services today

pretty bold statement considering you do no own all three consoles, what are you basing your opinion on??? Nostalgia??

In the grounds of objectivity its a fairly easy statement to make. Name a game on XBLA or PSN as significant as Sonic The Hedgehog (though the genesis game is on both, i'm pretty sure)



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.