Maybe you lost 30+ times cuz you suck at the game? IDK, just an idea though. :)

leo-j said: @CB You dont know what hardcore games, are and yes nintendo abandoned the Hardcore, in order to attract casuals.

Since you clearly didn't read a word of what I said above: Zelda TP sold more than 4 million copies on Wii, that alone means that 1/4 of the Wii owners is a harcore gamer.

Also: 1 million people bought RE4 (Wii) which is even tougher than Zelda. 

Furthermore real harcore games were already made when you were about to be made and I played Legend of Zelda, Super Metroid, Mega Man,  Mario etc...

  

leo-j said: @CB You dont know what hardcore games, are and yes nintendo abandoned the Hardcore, in order to attract casuals.

I don't think YOU know what hardcore games are leo. If HD graphics define a hardcore game than I guess we have NEVER had Hardcore before.. PS2 was statistically one of the most casual systems ever evident in it's sales and a majority of it's game library. That's right I said it PS2 started this crap you seem to be angry that Nintendos continuing it. The strategy works why the hell would ANY company fully abandon it except to say that they're far too full of themselves in the market? You can be casual and hardcore at once. Just because the games are accessible and don't support "OMG I can see his pupil from 50 feet away" HD graphics doesn't mean it's not designed for core. I dare say Metroid and Zelda are hardly known by casuals. I've yet to see much "Hardcore" come out for the PS3. A lot of sports and racing games with a few tossed in there. FPS's are not hardcore, they're mostly the same game with a new skin just like every other genre the major flaw is... most FPS are criminally EASY.

Soriku said: Game_boy said:   No, not that hardcore. For the Nintendo hardcore, I want Super Smash Bros. Brawl and Mario Kart Wii and in the UK before next summer, a real Paper Mario, a new Metroid game that isn't Prime 3 and is more like Super Metroid, and Kid Icarus. "Nintendo hardcore"? Nintendo own Monolith now. Monolith games are now Nintendo games. So technically they're still "Nintendo hardcore" games. I see where you're coming from, but still. P.S. I want a new Wii PM bad! Not SPM crap, I mean something like TTYD.

I agree. SPM was pretty good, but it was nothing when compared to TTYD.

Wii Play, Wii Sports, Rayman 2, Mario & Sonic, High School Musical & Mario Party 8

Thats 6 of the Wii's top 12 selling games this Christmas, thats the very definition of casual/braindead console. You could win at those games without even knowing how to play.

The other 6 :

Mario Galaxy - classic, but not overly hardcore
Guitar Hero 3 - non traditional game, that is played hardcore by its fans
Crossbow Training - kiddie light gun games
Lego Star Wars - kiddie
Zelda - an action game disguised as a casual RPG
Metriod 3 - hardcore shooter

So of the 12 games that sold 40K+ , only 1 is hardcore in my book. (Metriod) So Rol dont try to tell me 1 out of 4 Wii owners are hardcore gamers. Because if they are they are doing their hardcore gaming on a PS3 or XBox.

souixan said: leo-j said: @CB You dont know what hardcore games, are and yes nintendo abandoned the Hardcore, in order to attract casuals.   I don't think YOU know what hardcore games are leo. If HD graphics define a hardcore game than I guess we have NEVER had Hardcore before.. PS2 was statistically one of the most casual systems ever evident in it's sales and a majority of it's game library. That's right I said it PS2 started this crap you seem to be angry that Nintendos continuing it. The strategy works why the hell would ANY company fully abandon it except to say that they're far too full of themselves in the market? You can be casual and hardcore at once. Just because the games are accessible and don't support "OMG I can see his pupil from 50 feet away" HD graphics doesn't mean it's not designed for core. I dare say Metroid and Zelda are hardly known by casuals. I've yet to see much "Hardcore" come out for the PS3. A lot of sports and racing games with a few tossed in there. FPS's are not hardcore, they're mostly the same game with a new skin just like every other genre the major flaw is... most FPS are criminally EASY.

                                                                                                                                                                                       Yup, Guitar Hero would be great example for, being Both casual + Hardcore... ( It appeals to both >_< )

RolStoppable said: It's pretty obvious that Nintendo was never going to abandon the core gamer market. They already released sequels to quite a lot of their most popular franchises within the first year of the Wii's lifespan. These franchises are the core of the videogame market, they are around since 15+ years. The current "hardcore" gamers are people who grew up on Madden, GTA, Halo, Gran Turismo, Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy (since VII) and such games. Most of these "hardcore" won't accept and play what Nintendo offers, so it would be wasted effort from Nintendo to make games that appeal to these "hardcore" (these people don't like the "genre" Nintendo games). Besides, they aren't really an as important group for the market as they think. If they were, they would be able to support 3rd parties enough, so that they would actually post profits. Core gamers (the people who don't restrict themselves to only a couple or a handful of genres) are much more important for Nintendo (and 3rd parties), they buy games from all genres and they buy a lot of games. That's why Nintendo will never abandon them and that's why Nintendo has already released sequels to a lot of their core games for the Wii (and more are in the works alongside with new IPs).

 

I agree with you that, yes, it may be obvious that Nintendo had never planned (nor has no plans) to abandon the core gamer market. I do, however, believe that concern of the gaming market as a whole making the switch is a valid one and is, indeed, worth considering a possibility that none of us, of any fanicity (I made that up) would be entirely pleased with.

I would say this situation could be analogous to music. Take both metal an rap. Both started out as very niche markets, both were quite high in quality in their 'younger' years as well. After hitting the mainstream, they degraded in quality but became more profitable and popular than ever before.

So when the 'hardcore' claim that nintendo is killing the industry (which I disagree with, by the way- I would say that this revolution, if you will, is! Nintendo games, for the most part, still kick ass), they do not mean that in terms of quantity (because as we are seeing the casual games seem to be more profitable) but that the standard of quality that was once needed to be a successful game is lowering. And that is something that should be of major concern to anyone who calls themself a gamer.

 

@ Happy Squrriel

I also hate both terms, 'hardcore' and 'casual'. But there is no doubt that there is indeed something needed to distinguish between the different types of gamers. If you look at most words, there is so much ambiguity with them. The word racism means completely different things to a person growing up in a white community than to a black kid growing up in Compton, but yet, it is a term we use often.

Everyone has their stereotypes. Take Rolstoppable for example. He claims that the current group of self-proclaimed 'hardcore gamers' are those "who grew up on Madden, GTA, Halo, Gran Turismo, Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy (since VII) and such games". Funny, I would consider myself hardcore, but I grew up with Mario, Final Fantasy (NES, SNES) and Zelda, and I still enjoy the 'Nintendo genre'. Kinda hypocritical that he would attempt to blast those for categorizing themselves by categorizing them, don't ya think? But, of course, my definition of 'hardcore gamer' would be the same as his 'core gamer'.... only, uhh, harder! (kidding)

But the point being that, these terms exist for a reason. But I would say that the term 'hardcore gamer' is a much more accurate and less ambiguous term than 'hardcore game', as both types gamers, casual and hardcore, are quite capable and likely (if they are not fanboys) to enjoy any game, if it is fun.

I stopped reading after They will, trust me...

leo-j said: @CB You dont know what hardcore games, are and yes nintendo abandoned the Hardcore, in order to attract casuals.

 Nintenod defined the definition of hardcore games when it came to consoles so don't give me that bullshit.  IN reality Nintendo games was the definition of what the hardcore gamers played.

RolStoppable said: The "hardcore" are the most vocal group of gamers on the internet, that's probably why Microsoft and Sony (and most 3rd parties) listened to their desires how the 7th generation has to be.

I don't know about Microsoft but I would doubt Sony built it's PS3 with just hardcore gamers in mind but the fact they benefit in sales in both games,HDTV and movies, thus building a system around the latest Blu-ray tech. I seriously doubt they took little if any advice from the internet  with the huge $600 price tag.