sieanr said: I'm just guessing that you really have no idea what the RGB setting actually does since in no way is limited RGB "crippling the color capabilities of the PS3" Essentially the option is there to compensate for the different ways a TV handles brightness vs a monitor and some HDTVs. What the setting is actually doing is changing the output from 7.5 IRE to 0 IRE - a setting which changes the black level of the output and in no way changes the "color capabilities". Also setting RGB to full on a set that defaults to 7.5 IRE would result in crushing and make the picture look worse. Microsoft added this option to the 360 because people where complaining about washed out colors over VGA. Could you guess why they were seeing washed out colors over VGA and not any other output? Not to mention that the TVs gametrailers use could be like 95% of TVs made and display a picture that looks fine on limited. Hey they can optimize both consoles for a fair comparison. If you cant optimize it any better, it already reached its potential dont you agree? the Xbox360 is optimized, can you say the same for the ps3? as i have said, we are comparing the builds of the game. they crippled one version and showed washed out colors when all they had to do was change RGB to full. A common knowledge process that doesnt even take 30 seconds to do, you dont even buy anything, its right there.if you set it to limited of course your gonna get washed out colors, your not using the full capabilities of your machine... also remember comparison videos are for the customers, so what they are showing is basically misinformation. Once again you don't know what you're talking about. For starters outside the internet few people are going to have a clue about what the hell "full RGB" means. Furthermore most people aren't going to see a difference unless they are using a computer monitor with their PS3. Remember, most sets display the default output just fine and don't get washed out colors. And these comparison videos aren't meant for customers at all. Just think about it; how many people outside of the "hardcore" look up comparison videos? Hell, how many people actually own both consoles, because last I checked, these vids are pretty useless for a person who only owns one system. The fact of the matter is these comparisons are meant for "console warriors" Shit like this gets hits to the site and people talking, and thats what matters, not making the games look pretty. Now you can keep complaining about the difference in color, but it doesn't change the substance of the AC video at all, namely the tearing, pop-in and framerate issues. You know, the things that actually matter in the comparison. Oh, and the color looks identical on the DMC video. I guess GT took people like you seriously.

only matters on a monitor? you my friend are sorely mistaken.
yeah i do have a bravia XBR4....( i never mentioned super white)
let me tell you, There is a big difference when i tried limited and full.
I noticed a big difference in color firsthand which is why i was surprised when i saw the big difference in the video.

I didnt go by that video i tried it myself, that video mightve looked crushed because its a youtube video captured with a camera, or like you said, the guy doesnt know how to set up his display. but the game doesnt have "severe black crush" on my set.

yes i admit the only knowledge i have with RGB is the ones ive experienced myself, and i notice a big color difference when i set RGB to limited. Crippling mightve been too strong an adjective, nonetheless setting it too limited is detrimental to the picture quality in that game.

"Not to mention that the TVs gametrailers use could be like 95% of TVs made and display a picture that looks fine on limited."

funny, didnt you mention video capture cards?

"Once again you don't know what you're talking about.
For starters outside the internet few people are going to have a clue about what the hell "full RGB" means. Furthermore most people aren't going to see a difference unless they are using a computer monitor with their PS3. Remember, most sets display the default output just fine and don't get washed out colors.

And these comparison videos aren't meant for customers at all. Just think about it; how many people outside of the "hardcore" look up comparison videos? Hell, how many people actually own both consoles, because last I checked, these vids are pretty useless for a person who only owns one system. The fact of the matter is these comparisons are meant for "console warriors" Shit like this gets hits to the site and people talking, and thats what matters, not making the games look pretty."

weird why you would bold my sentence

"also remember comparison videos are for the customers, so what they are showing is basically misinformation."

just to make it clear i am going by John Lucas' definition of "customers", consumers would not know the difference but customers will. ever heard his line "always a customer never a consumer"?

"Now you can keep complaining about the difference in color, but it doesn't change the substance of the AC video at all, namely the tearing, pop-in and framerate issues. You know, the things that actually matter in the comparison."

they dont show tearing, pop in or framerate issues in comparison videos like these... 

"Oh, and the color looks identical on the DMC video. I guess GT took people like you seriously."

funny how you resort to name calling that quick.
pretty good indirect try though, first you call fanboys arguing in GT "console warriors"
a paragraph later you try to lump me as one of them...

why dont you read the whole thread again and see where i stand in this matter.
the only reason i mentioned GT and AC was because endimion would not believe that GT gave an
inaccurate comparison before.

 

 

If you figured out where I stand in this matter...

and if you dont mind i would like to end this pointless squabble and move on to a more meaningful and lighthearted thread, where people enjoy themselves while discussing the things they like.

Like the pornstation3 thread! that threads the bomb!

unless

you have something that you must get off your chest, I would still be willing to discuss.

with that said, nice talking too you, and enjoy the rest of your day.

You my friend are sorely mistaken. It does cause detrimental effects to the picture most of the time, even if you fail to realize it. It has nothing to do with the game that is in use and I honestly can't see why this is hard to grasp.

Most sets handle brightness a certain way, and Full RGB is meant for computer monitors or TVs that can handle signals differently than a tv - and that is the only reason Full RGB was added. You can debate this till the cows come home, but thats a fact. Hell, for shits and giggles try adjusting the saturation and brightness settings and you're tv when the PS3 outputs limited - you'll be able to get a picture that is the exact same as full rgb.

Read this and you might learn something; http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6518336&postcount=1417



What I meant was their PS3 games look fine when they play them on a tv. Why would they think it'd be any different on a capture card? Remember that if you have things on the TV set correctly it wont look washed out.



And this changes who the videos are targeted at how? Oh right, it doesn't.



Those three things show up in comparison vids all the time. Then again, they don't exactly point it out for you.



Where did I resort to name calling?

The fact of the matter is you don't understand what the RGB full setting actually changes, yet you think that explains why the colors look different. Furthermore you argue that its an unfair comparison when all they're doing is capturing the default output.

sieanr said: You my friend are sorely mistaken. It does cause detrimental effects to the picture most of the time, even if you fail to realize it. It has nothing to do with the game that is in use and I honestly can't see why this is hard to grasp. Most sets handle brightness a certain way, and Full RGB is meant for computer monitors or TVs that can handle signals differently than a tv - and that is the only reason Full RGB was added. You can debate this till the cows come home, but thats a fact. Hell, for shits and giggles try adjusting the saturation and brightness settings and you're tv when the PS3 outputs limited - you'll be able to get a picture that is the exact same as full rgb. Read this and you might learn something; http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=6518336&postcount=1417 funny, didnt you mention video capture cards? What I meant was their PS3 games look fine when they play them on a tv. Why would they think it'd be any different on a capture card? Remember that if you have things on the TV set correctly it wont look washed out. just to make it clear i am going by John Lucas' definition of "customers", consumers would not know the difference but customers will. ever heard his line "always a customer never a consumer"? And this changes who the videos are targeted at how? Oh right, it doesn't. they dont show tearing, pop in or framerate issues in comparison videos like these... Those three things show up in comparison vids all the time. Then again, they don't exactly point it out for you. funny how you resort to name calling that quick. pretty good indirect try though, first you call fanboys arguing in GT "console warriors" a paragraph later you try to lump me as one of them... why dont you read the whole thread again and see where i stand in this matter. the only reason i mentioned GT and AC was because endimion would not believe that GT gave an inaccurate comparison before. Where did I resort to name calling? The fact of the matter is you don't understand what the RGB full setting actually changes, yet you think that explains why the colors look different. Furthermore you argue that its an unfair comparison when all they're doing is capturing the default output.

I enjoyed reading the link you provided,
and yes from andrewfee's tests i found out my set does support full RGB.
So for what its worth, thanks, you gave me piece of mind about that issue.

Andrewfee:

"Here's a test for people to see whether or not their display supports the new full range option or not.First, save this image, and put it on a memory card or something so that you can view it on the PS3:http://sr-388.net/images/patterns/Brightness.jpg

With the option set to limited, adjust the brightness control on your TV until you can see most/all of the boxes. There are 12 boxes there, but you might not be able to see them all. You should hopefully be able to see at least 9/10 of them.

Now switch it over to Full range. Can you still see all the boxes? It's very likely that you will only see a full black screen now if you're using a HDTV rather than a DVI monitor.

If you can turn up the brightness control and see the same number of boxes again, then it seems your display does support the full range. If it stays black, or you can't see as many boxes as before, your TV does not support the full range option and you should be using limited.

Most HDTVs should have it set to limited."

yes, my set passed that test.

"If your display has the option to choose between "PC" levels (full range) and "Video" levels, then you would want 0-255 for both. If you're using full range on a display that does not expect full range over HDMI, you then completely lose shadow details, as pictured above.
You're best using full if you can see all the boxes on it. It should, in theory at least, give you slightly smoother gradients."

So Full is better, so how is it detrimental again?

"Good to know. Full range is always best to use if you have the option of displaying it properly though."

uh huh

those are all quoted from Andrewfee, the guy you linked me too.

 

 

now quotes from you:

"What I meant was their PS3 games look fine when they play them on a tv. Why would they think it'd be any different on a capture card?

so my ps3 game looked fine on my tv yet it looks washed out on their capture card?

"Remember that if you have things on the TV set correctly it wont look washed out.""

i agree, so why is it washed out on their video capture card?

About the customer thing, you declared customers wouldnt notice a difference, i just corrected you
by stating what definition of customer i meant when i said they would know the difference.
i for one would consider myself a customer from JL's definition not a consumer.
I research before i buy.

"Those three things show up in comparison vids all the time. Then again, they don't exactly point it out for you."

why arent we mister high and mighty, oh im sorry i didnt see the pop-ins and the tearings or the jumpy framerate, maybe if you pointed it out for me i would know... -_-

"Where did I resort to name calling? "

i just explained it in my other post, first you call the fanboys arguing at GT "console warriors"
calling the comparison video ammo for their little battle.
and then you try to lump me along with them...
yeah indirect name calling is no different than name calling...

"The fact of the matter is you don't understand what the RGB full setting actually changes, yet you think that explains why the colors look different. "

from what i have read, it gives deeper colors but not deeper blacks.

 

i think youre also very confused with RGB yourself.
saying you lose shadows, and it crushes blacks, which basically only happens when your set doesnt support full RGB.

seriously bud, you need to lighten up, It a friendly discussion...

 

I am completely backing iclim here. A game should be displayed as it looks at its best on all systems. Do we bitch about Super Mario Galaxy videos being in 480p and 16:9? Of course not, because that's the best it can look. Small optimizations like changing color from limited to full are hardly difficult to execute and could certainly be found in the operations manual of the PS3. I don't think this is Gametrailers bias or anything, but they should know enough about the systems to know how to properly display games. That said, it seems that although they won't be correcting the old videos they HAVE adjusted color to full for this video. The PS3 version doesn't have the washed look it would have if they hadn't.

I bolded the part of his post you clearly didn't read. BTW full range is Full RGB, in case you just didn't understand what he said.



Not entirely true.

It in no way changes how "deep" colors are, just what level black and everything else is set at. Again, if you have a set that expects black to be 0 and its outputting 16 then you're "black" isn't really black, however the PS3 doesn't do BTB (blacker than black) like most high end equipment.

The reason colors would look deeper is because everything is shifted to slightly darker when black goes from 16 to 0. You can easily try this by setting the brightness lower, and it should make the colors "richer" since that is caused in part by how dark they are.



You still aren't understanding what full RGB does at all. Normal TV sets expect black to be at a certain level (16 on a scale of 0-255) That level is what the limited option outputs, meaning the picture will look fine. Full outputs black at a lower level (0 on a scale of 0-255). Now if you have a TV that expects black to be at 16 and you set it to full, you are essentially clipping a good part of the shadow detail.

Now how this relates to the capture card is simple; their tvs expect black at 16, thats what the PS3 outputs, and it looks fine. The capture card is set to expect black at 0, PS3 outputs at 16 and everything looks lighter (aka washed out) Get it?

Oh, and funny that you now agree with me about the color being dependent on the settings on the TV when before Limited RGB was "compromising the PS3 color capabilities"



You're set likely has an option to change between "video" and "pc" mode, which will change the level teh set expects black to be at. Changing it to video will make limited look identical to full, fyi. For what its worth the PS3 is stretching the limited RGB to Full RGB, so the option really doesn't make much of a difference if you properly calibrate the display (unless you're big on bluray)



Where did I say you shouldn't use full if your set can handle it? hmm, I seem to remember claiming that most TVs cant handle it properly, and should be avoided on those.



And I stand by what I say that only the hardcore who actually know about GT and comparison vids are going to watch this. People generally go for major reviews and owner testimony, not geeky comparison vids.



Sorry for getting terse, but when you go and make a sweeping generalization like that it makes yourself look kinda bad.. especially when the video you linked to contained some of those thing... or how you continually fail to understand full rgb, which leads me too;



I think you're very confused about what I wrote, if you actually read it/understood it. So I guess I get to quote myself and bold the parts you missed.



7.5 IRE would be a TV set that doesn't support full RGB in case thats the part that tripped you up.

Also notice how I said it would have negative effects for most TVs, but would be beneficial for Monitors and HD sets, you know, the things that actually support Full rGB.

Not to mention that you wont get crushing on a set that doesn't support full RGB if you have the option set to limited. Crushing will only occur if you set it to full on a "limited" set - which is where you seem to be confused, suggesting that a non-full rgb set will see crushing.



Sorry you missed my intent.

You were claiming the video was biased because RGB wasn't set to full and that that somehow compromised the "PS3 color capabilities". Besides the hyperbole that just isn't true. I said GT gave into people like you; people who really don't know what RGB full and Super White does and claiming that they are rigging comparison videos by not enabling them.



Man, I just forgot I'm on the internet. For a second I thought everything I wrote was meant literally. Serious business dood.

@Naz: thanks man.

@sieanr:
sigh...
Okay first up did GT optimize the ps3 AC video?
you say that limited looks fine on their set, then why is it all washed out on the video?
If GT calibrated their set, AC would look a lot better than what they had shown.
If GT calibrated their set, they would be surprised that the video captured looked a lot worse than what they have seen on their set. If they were fair they would have tried to see what was wrong.
yet they deliberately showed the washed out version, is that fair i ask you?

now correct me if im wrong but shouldnt their capture cards support full range RGB.why would they set it to limited thus making the colors look washed out?
If theyre capture card doesnt support full RGB then isnt it an outdated piece of techknowledgy that is not qualified for this task?

you cant deny that the ps3 is capable of much richer colors and it would only look washed out if the set wasnt properly calibrated. i agree that color is dependent on the set, but it is also dependent on the source which is the ps3.

Like Naz,Libellule and I said the game should be played in an optimized setting.
AC in my set looked a hell of a lot better than their video, and i didnt have black crush nor did i lose shadow detail. which leads me to believe that they half-assed captured the video...

you told me Full gave detrimental effects when i told you i see an improvement on my set when i turned it on. your words:

"You my friend are sorely mistaken. It does cause detrimental effects to the picture most of the time, even if you fail to realize it. It has nothing to do with the game that is in use and I honestly can't see why this is hard to grasp. "

remember my set can handle Full so there is no detrimental effects that i failed to realize...

"Man, I just forgot I'm on the internet. For a second I thought everything I wrote was meant literally. Serious business dood."

just because where on the internet doesnt mean we can disregard common courtesy and manners...
Ive had my fill of keyboard warriors on youtube...

on a lighter note: Dood? Disgaea fan?

sigh... here we go again

Limited will look fine on a set that is expecting black to be at 16. Understand this?
Limited will look washed out on a set/equipment that expects black at 0. Understand this?

The TV expects black at 16, so limited looks fine on their TVs. The capture card is likely expecting black at 0, so since things look fine on their TV at limited



Except Full RGB doesn't make the colors any richer. All it does is change the range from dark to light.
Limited; Black is at 16 and pure white is at 236
Full; Black is at 0 and pure white is at 255
So all its doing is changing the range over which the image is outputted, understand?

Now some TVs expect the 16-236 range, and for those sets everything would look fine. Others expect 0-255 range, and everything would look fine with full. If you had outputted limited to a TV that expects limited and outputted Full to a TV that expects Full things would look identical.

You could say that the Full RGB option is better because the output range is a bit larger, which should lead to less banding. However, the general consensus on AVSforums is that the Full option is nothing more than th PS3 "stretching" the Limited option to 0-255. What this means is that there is really no actual advantage to using Full on a properly calibrated set, unless you have everything set up for a YcRcB on Bluray.



I was referring to your blanket statement "So Full is better, so how is it detrimental again?", hence the problems you fail to realize since your TV doesn't display them. Also keep in mind that your set should have an option for "video RGB" or "PC RGB" - which is the same as limited or Full. In other words you can see the problems of Full by setting it to Video RGB, and you can see how Limited and Full will produce identical results when thats what the TV expects.



And I think you're blowing a minor thing out of proportion.



Youtube is serious business. Disgaea owns.

sieanr said: sigh... here we go again Limited will look fine on a set that is expecting black to be at 16. Understand this? Limited will look washed out on a set/equipment that expects black at 0. Understand this? The TV expects black at 16, so limited looks fine on their TVs. The capture card is likely expecting black at 0, so since things look fine on their TV at limited you cant deny that the ps3 is capable of much richer colors and it would only look washed out if the set wasnt properly calibrated. i agree that color is dependent on the set, but it is also dependent on the source which is the ps3. Except Full RGB doesn't make the colors any richer. All it does is change the range from dark to light. Limited; Black is at 16 and pure white is at 236 Full; Black is at 0 and pure white is at 255 So all its doing is changing the range over which the image is outputted, understand? Now some TVs expect the 16-236 range, and for those sets everything would look fine. Others expect 0-255 range, and everything would look fine with full. If you had outputted limited to a TV that expects limited and outputted Full to a TV that expects Full things would look identical. You could say that the Full RGB option is better because the output range is a bit larger, which should lead to less banding. However, the general consensus on AVSforums is that the Full option is nothing more than th PS3 "stretching" the Limited option to 0-255. What this means is that there is really no actual advantage to using Full on a properly calibrated set, unless you have everything set up for a YcRcB on Bluray. remember my set can handle Full so there is no detrimental effects that i failed to realize... I was referring to your blanket statement "So Full is better, so how is it detrimental again?", hence the problems you fail to realize since your TV doesn't display them. Also keep in mind that your set should have an option for "video RGB" or "PC RGB" - which is the same as limited or Full. In other words you can see the problems of Full by setting it to Video RGB, and you can see how Limited and Full will produce identical results when thats what the TV expects. Like Naz,Libellule and I said the game should be played in an optimized setting. AC in my set looked a hell of a lot better than their video, and i didnt have black crush nor did i lose shadow detail. which leads me to believe that they half-assed captured the video... And I think you're blowing a minor thing out of proportion. just because where on the internet doesnt mean we can disregard common courtesy and manners... Ive had my fill of keyboard warriors on youtube... on a lighter note: Dood? Disgaea fan? Youtube is serious business. Disgaea owns.

"Limited will look fine on a set that is expecting black to be at 16. Understand this?
Limited will look washed out on a set/equipment that expects black at 0. Understand this?

The TV expects black at 16, so limited looks fine on their TVs. The capture card is likely expecting black at 0, so since things look fine on their TV at limited"

so you agree that GT gave the ps3 video an unfair comparison because of their settings.
since they left the ps3 at limited on a capture card that expected black at 0 thus making the picture look washed out, thus fueling the ongoing fanboy wars on their forums?

"Now some TVs expect the 16-236 range, and for those sets everything would look fine. Others expect 0-255 range, and everything would look fine with full. If you had outputted limited to a TV that expects limited and outputted Full to a TV that expects Full things would look identical."

yet they outputted limited on a machine that expected full which is detrimental to the picture quality. wouldnt you agree that that is unfair?

"I was referring to your blanket statement "So Full is better, so how is it detrimental again?", hence the problems you fail to realize since your TV doesn't display them. Also keep in mind that your set should have an option for "video RGB" or "PC RGB" - which is the same as limited or Full. In other words you can see the problems of Full by setting it to Video RGB, and you can see how Limited and Full will produce identical results when thats what the TV expects."

also remember i mentioned that the only RGB full/limited difference i have ever experienced is through my own set, which is why i said it looked better, but i guess i was wrong to assume that others would be capable of handling full, and for that i apologize.

"And I think you're blowing a minor thing out of proportion."

youve seen the comparison video of AC, would you describe the difference as minor?
even my parents could see a difference and their not techy people.

"Disgaea owns."

...... hell yeah! though i havent beaten the psp version yet.
thoses prinnies are funny ^^

On topic:

According to some resources the ps3 version will be much better.