@Soriku

 You are assuming that most people are honest and hard-working. I think you'll find this is not the case. Your scenario goes against human nature.

 Also, I don't think drugs cause 99% of killings. The majority of marijuana users are non-violent and pretty much like everyone else. Marijuana definitely causes problems, but no more than alcohol. It should be legalized.

Soriku said: Here's what my friends (and I) came up with: If we had Communism, we'd have to make it sorta similar to how the Native Americans lived. ie. A system of trade. And you can't basically steal something because no one owns it. Here I go: Communism, in my mind, would be a system of trade. For example, if a person wants to become a vet, let them be a vet. A cook, let them be a cook. Now say for example there is a farmer, OK? There is also a vet. If one of the farmer's animals get sick, the vet tries to make the animal well again. In exchange for the vet's services, the farmer gives the vet food in exchange for healing his animal(s). Sound fair enough? Heh what if everyone wants to be the vet, heck or the farmer? Whos to say how much food is worth the exchange, and what type of food? Now for the labor: Everyone has to do work to accomplish something. If you don't do work, or are lazy, well you don't get anything in return. This system if trade is, well, complex. You don't do your share as you're supposed to, you don't get anything. If you want to live, and don't want to starve to deah, you do your work and if you don't do it then no one gives you anything in return. It's that simple. Communism is based on everyone getting the same, even if everyone works, what happens to the people who work harder do they get anything in return? This is the benefit of capitalism usually the harder workers are the ones who succeed. Your example of how if you dont work you starve is capitalism. Now for the people who CAN'T work due to problems they have: Someone takes care of them. A doctor, perhaps. If someone is good at doctoring, let them be a doctor. You don't want a novice/amateur, you want someone who is devoted and is responsible and smart enough to take the job. Now the doctor and their family takes care of them, and for the doctor's service, the family trades something of their specialty for their service. Sound fair? I think this would also stop war. There might be trouble, but that's why you have the military. Instead of bringing the whole military in, branch them off to small groups we now call "police" or back then, the "knights." They take care of things. If someone is being an idiot, causing MAJOR (I mean MAJOR) and maybe even killing, well, you shoot them. But why would you kill in this situation? (IIRC) 99% of the killings in the US is due to people getting high and taking drugs. Make drugs illegal. No not really, doesnt change anything in difference in believes in country, i dont see how this works AT ALL Now for the bad: I don't think we'd have such a modern society as we have now. We might not be as advanced. Communism is now an extinct thing BECAUSE we've been using Capitalism for hundreds of years. Communism sucks now. --- Anyone share opinions? Your opinions look good on paper soriku and thats as far as they go

 

ssj12 said: damkira said: Ron Paul supporters are really overdoing it... there are Ron Paul signs everywhere and I've already gotten calls from him. Overcampaigning to the point where its realy annoying to people will backfire, you can ask Howard Dean. (I wasn't talking about ssj12 in my post but rather a lot of people I know)   what state do you live in.. Florida has a ton of supporters but they dont do phone calls.. yet.

 I live in Virginia, which is odd because we have a very late primary. I think it may have to do with the fact that all registered voters can cast ballots in either primary and a lot of independents and Democrats are supporting Paul. I'm not sure they were from the campaign, though.

 

makingmusic476 said: ItsaMii said: makingmusic476 said: They have this billboard that occasionally pops up near the Union on LSU's campus. It's basically there for people to write whatever they want, whatever comes to mind. One day I was walking by and saw that somebody had written, "Cuba has a 0% unemployment rate. Why can't we?" I almost died laughing. Yes, let's all live the wonderful lives of the Cubans. It is so full of shit. In Cuba, some women sell their bodies for less tha a McDonald`s meal. Is that they idea of a job. I have heard stories that some of the prostitutes take the clients to their homes where they live with their parents and kids (in most communist countries there was 2-4 families per house). Cuba has a lot of good things compared to the rest of Latin America (near 0% analfabetism, high life expectancy), but they are so poor that in most houses they use old newspapers as toilet paper. A medic makes less in a month than a guy who run errands into a Hotel (tips in dollars are worth a fortune). Exactly. It's absolutely horrible. Not to mention, if it wasn't for the profit motive, we wouldn't have near the technological advancements that we have today. Cars, computer technology, medicine, etc. all comes from Japan and the US, the two most capitalistic countries in the world. Remember this Soriku, if it wasn't for capitalism, there'd be no Kingdom Hearts. ;)

 This is only, somewhat true.  For example, medical technology seems to be less advanced since it's been "for profit" well not less advanced but the findings are less.  We're finding less and less cures, and instead finding treatments... because treatments are far more profitable... and it's easy to make the rationale to the public because they can always use the excuse that cures are harder to find, and that treatments will be done sooner and can help the people who have the disease now. (at a tidy profit)  It's hard to argue that when people will spin it that you want current people to die in pain, when in reality you just want to cure things so people don't have to deal with the disease anymore.

Furthermore people still claim their scientific and medical theroes are relvant when they've been proven wrong because otherwise they will lose their funding and money.  Thus wasting resources and their intellect trying to prove scientific theroes that are long defunct because they are afraid they will be out of a job it they don't, which can even lead to intelectual dishonesty in the altering a figures and results.

Scientific and Medical advances were better off in my opinion when they were a combination of state funded and driven by rich hobbists who were into science because they loved it and didn't have to worry about their funding getting pulled and could switch their ideas with their results.  At least in the fields of Medicine and low profit scinces like quantum physics.

damkira said: ssj12 said: damkira said: Ron Paul supporters are really overdoing it... there are Ron Paul signs everywhere and I've already gotten calls from him. Overcampaigning to the point where its realy annoying to people will backfire, you can ask Howard Dean. (I wasn't talking about ssj12 in my post but rather a lot of people I know)   what state do you live in.. Florida has a ton of supporters but they dont do phone calls.. yet.  I live in Virginia, which is odd because we have a very late primary. I think it may have to do with the fact that all registered voters can cast ballots in either primary and a lot of independents and Democrats are supporting Paul. I'm not sure they were from the campaign, though.

its was probably all for the straw poll. Ron won 20/41 straw polls last I heard. 

fkusumot said: What happened to socialism? Communism as a system is considered debunked right now because of world events in the last 20 years. There's always the argument that communism can't succeed until capitalism is destroyed but it looks like that theory isn't going to be tested soon. Unenlightened despotism is on the rise all over the place.

Here's a man who knows what he's talking about.

Looking over these forums, I saw a couple people who seem to fall into the unenlightened despotism camp themselves.

People who advocate unfettered capitalism don't seem to realize that that doesn't work either. It's called fascism, and it has never fared any better than communism. The way we've worked out our societies, we're going to require both, because if all we focus on is the economics, very few people will do well while the masses suffer (which always ends bad for the fat cats). Conversely, like I said earlyer, human nature will always prevent communism from working.

It's funny that this should come up, I am a "Political Science: International Affairs" student.

Cuba actually admits to unemployment around 2%, however this is deceptive because many people don't go to their assigned jobs because they can't survive off the wages so they work in the black market economy. Prostitution is not as prevalent as many US politicians make it seem. It is there, but it is less than the US number of prostitutes per capita. People in Cuba who try to work an honest job can not get enough to eat, unless they drive a taxi or work in tourism. Housing is as bad as Itsamii says.

Soriku, I thought you were a Republican? Republican is as far as you can get from Communist. Not fascism, because both are authoritarian.

The following descriptions are just a simple outline, there are exceptions and variations within each example.

Republican is open market w/minor regulation, low-social support (far right wing of the GOP would be no social support), and representative-democracy.

Democrat it is almost the same = open market w/minor regulation, low-social support (far left wing of the Dems would be moderate to high social support), and representative-democracy

Socialist (moderate, non-revolutionary) = open market w/ high taxation and moderate regulation, high level of social support, and representative-democracy or parliamentary

Fascist/Nazi/Radical Right = government controlled or assigned production but open or mostly open market pricing, some comprehensive social programs (usually infrastructure, food, and medicine) but some areas left completely unattended/underfunded or misused (prisons, mental health, public information), authoritarian (Usually associates with a religious entity)

Revolutionary Socialist/Communist = closed market, some comprehensive social programs (usually infrastructure, food, and medicine) but some areas left completely unattended/underfunded or misused (prisons, mental health, public information), authoritarian. (Also, discourages or eliminates non-party influences like other parties or religions) (note: Infrastructure, food and medicines under these gov'ts are usually lacking because of the lack of profit motivator)

takeru51 said: fkusumot said: What happened to socialism? Communism as a system is considered debunked right now because of world events in the last 20 years. There's always the argument that communism can't succeed until capitalism is destroyed but it looks like that theory isn't going to be tested soon. Unenlightened despotism is on the rise all over the place. Here's a man who knows what he's talking about. Looking over these forums, I saw a couple people who seem to fall into the unenlightened despotism camp themselves. People who advocate unfettered capitalism don't seem to realize that that doesn't work either. It's called fascism, and it has never fared any better than communism. The way we've worked out our societies, we're going to require both, because if all we focus on is the economics, very few people will do well while the masses suffer (which always ends bad for the fat cats). Conversely, like I said earlyer, human nature will always prevent communism from working.

 Fascism is not pure capitalism, Fascism is the direct or indirect (through allotment and assignment) control of the gov't over production.  Pure capitalism is no gov't control (which ends in anarchy and violence, usually follwed by a second revolution that sets up a fascist or military regime)
 

Soriku said: Here's what my friends (and I) came up with: If we had Communism, we'd have to make it sorta similar to how the Native Americans lived. ie. A system of trade. And you can't basically steal something because no one owns it. Here I go: Communism, in my mind, would be a system of trade. For example, if a person wants to become a vet, let them be a vet. A cook, let them be a cook. Now say for example there is a farmer, OK? There is also a vet. If one of the farmer's animals get sick, the vet tries to make the animal well again. In exchange for the vet's services, the farmer gives the vet food in exchange for healing his animal(s). Sound fair enough? Now for the labor: Everyone has to do work to accomplish something. If you don't do work, or are lazy, well you don't get anything in return. This system if trade is, well, complex. You don't do your share as you're supposed to, you don't get anything. If you want to live, and don't want to starve to deah, you do your work and if you don't do it then no one gives you anything in return. It's that simple. Now for the people who CAN'T work due to problems they have: Someone takes care of them. A doctor, perhaps. If someone is good at doctoring, let them be a doctor. You don't want a novice/amateur, you want someone who is devoted and is responsible and smart enough to take the job. Now the doctor and their family takes care of them, and for the doctor's service, the family trades something of their specialty for their service. Sound fair? I think this would also stop war. There might be trouble, but that's why you have the military. Instead of bringing the whole military in, branch them off to small groups we now call "police" or back then, the "knights." They take care of things. If someone is being an idiot, causing MAJOR (I mean MAJOR) and maybe even killing, well, you shoot them. But why would you kill in this situation? (IIRC) 99% of the killings in the US is due to people getting high and taking drugs. Make drugs illegal. Now for the bad: I don't think we'd have such a modern society as we have now. We might not be as advanced. Communism is now an extinct thing BECAUSE we've been using Capitalism for hundreds of years. Communism sucks now. --- Anyone share opinions?

... ... ... Soriku. That is not Communism, that's a bartering system. And it's wildly inefficient, especially in any sort of large-scale, complex economy. Also, I think you and your friends have a highly idealized and dare I say Disney-ized concept of preColumbian Native American culture. You do not recall correctly. You could not sustain a highly complex technological civilization on a system such as that you describe. Say goodbye to Kingdom Hearts. Communism sucks largely because it seems to be highly vulnerable to totalitarianism.

Basically, the problem with Communism is that it goes against nature. In nature, the animals that are the strongest and most skilled, or use the best strategies for hunting are the ones that survive.

Fuzzmosis has the very fundamentals. in communism, every body works, and everyone gets the same amount, if they work hard, they get paid one amount, and if they don't work hard, they STILL get paid the same amount.
ZERO motivation.
People will naturally slack off or at the very least do the bare minimum. This isn't just a matter of being lazy either, this is a basic case of reinforcing behavior. Even the most dedicated person in the world is not going to be able to put forth their best effort when they are constantly being shown that they get absolutely NOTHING for that best effort.
So how does any work get done at all? Well, that's when the government begins telling you that if you don't work the way they decide you should work, they'll kill you, or take your kids away from you, or basically throw you in chains for forced labor.
And what can the people do about it? They're in a communism, they don't even own their own money, because the government is the one who decides who gets how much. You can be sure as heck certain that the government is going to outlaw guns so that they can't have a revolution too.

Capitalism isn't always pretty, sometimes it's ruthless, and most of the time it doesn't feel fair at all, but that's just how life is. Those who put forth the most effort get the most out of it. Sometimes life throws lucky breaks, sometimes people get by on other peoples effort, but no matter what happens around you, there is still that chance to change your life for the better that is always present. Sometimes it takes a lot of risk, far more time and way too many failed attempts, but you are still ultimately the one in control of your own life.

Capitalism also has one other major advantage over communism, which is the creation of new wealth.
Almost every other system that addresses monetary issues is based on the principle that if you want to make money, there has to be someone else to make it from. if I want to make $10, someone else has to lose $10, and then for them to make back that $10 to break even, they in turn have to make $10 off of someone else, who will in turn do the same and on and so on.
Capitalism allows a person to consider the perceived value of an object.
for instance, in most places in America, you can find drinking fountains scattered wherever. for all intents and purposes, water is free. If someone told you to pay $50 for a bottle of water, you'd laugh at them. But what if you were in the middle of a desert, dying of a 3 day period with no water? Suddenly the price isn't quite so bad.
Now in that example, one person is taking advantage of the other. But what if both of them take advantage of each other at the same time? There's the phrase "one man's trash is another man's treasure." If you have something that is useless to you, but is the exact thing the other guy absolutely NEEDS, but he has something useless to him that YOU need, you both trade, and you both gave away something that was worth $0 and got something in return that was worth $50 -$1000. The $50 - $1000 didn't come from the other guy, it is new wealth.

so yeah, that's a pretty basic summation of why communism doesn't work in reality, and why capitalism does.