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Forums - General Discussion - Communism Vs. Capitalism

damkira said:

@Soriku

You are assuming that most people are honest and hard-working. I think you'll find this is not the case. Your scenario goes against human nature.

Also, I don't think drugs cause 99% of killings. The majority of marijuana users are non-violent and pretty much like everyone else. Marijuana definitely causes problems, but no more than alcohol. It should be legalized.


Actually, as far as non-legal problems are concered (meaning health-related problems), alcohol is far worse (and far more addictive) than marijuana. The only reason why marijuana is considered such a problem is because it was made illegal. Back in the 1920's/1930's criminalizing it was a way of punishing Mexicans and black Americans. It was made illegal because of it's popularity with minorities, even after the American Doctor's Association said that it was fine.

People seem to think of drugs in very black and white terms. Perscription medication can have side effects worse than that of cocaine, but while it's fine if people take that, you're scum if you smoke a joint.

I say this completely objectively, as I have never used marijuana before in my life. Anyway, way off topic, back to the matter at hand...



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Final-Fan said:

....

 

....
Communism sucks largely because it seems to be highly vulnerable to totalitarianism.


Actually, you are being to prudent.  Communism calls for a dictator or oligarchy after the revolution.  The democratic-no government utopia is the dream at the end of the communist path... When all nations of the world are COmmunist.  (Never gonna happen)

 

from the communist manifesto:

"

Within the party at all times, and within society at large after the revolution, the role of central leadership is decisive. The working class requires a general staff that places the victory of communism above all other goals and that fights to make the party the leader of society.

After the leadership has guaranteed full and open discussion of policy, every party member and worker must develop the discipline to accept and carry out the collective decision. Even those who disagree must hold to this discipline. The effort to put party decisions into action must be united everywhere. Later we can see clearly the rightness or wrongness of decisions, and, if need be, make adjustments or scrap them. In this way, both majority and minority viewpoints will get a serious hearing.

Throughout the process of seizing, holding and expanding revolutionary power, workers need only one leading political force--the communist party. Before and during the revolution, tens of millions of workers, soldiers and students will join or support the communist party. Only a party with such a mass base can successfully lead a revolution. After the revolution, workers and their allies will not need a government separate from the party. Either such a government would be a rubber-stamp for the workers' mass party, or it would represent enemies of communism. Surely a rubber-stamp government is useless and deceptive. And workers must never again share power with class enemies. We propose that after the revolution, the party--composed of tens of millions of workers--lead society."

 



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.

Kasz216 said:
makingmusic476 said:
ItsaMii said:
makingmusic476 said:
They have this billboard that occasionally pops up near the Union on LSU's campus. It's basically there for people to write whatever they want, whatever comes to mind. One day I was walking by and saw that somebody had written, "Cuba has a 0% unemployment rate. Why can't we?" I almost died laughing. Yes, let's all live the wonderful lives of the Cubans.

It is so full of shit. In Cuba, some women sell their bodies for less tha a McDonald`s meal. Is that they idea of a job. I have heard stories that some of the prostitutes take the clients to their homes where they live with their parents and kids (in most communist countries there was 2-4 families per house).

Cuba has a lot of good things compared to the rest of Latin America (near 0% analfabetism, high life expectancy), but they are so poor that in most houses they use old newspapers as toilet paper. A medic makes less in a month than a guy who run errands into a Hotel (tips in dollars are worth a fortune).


Exactly. It's absolutely horrible. Not to mention, if it wasn't for the profit motive, we wouldn't have near the technological advancements that we have today. Cars, computer technology, medicine, etc. all comes from Japan and the US, the two most capitalistic countries in the world.

Remember this Soriku, if it wasn't for capitalism, there'd be no Kingdom Hearts. ;)


This is only, somewhat true. For example, medical technology seems to be less advanced since it's been "for profit" well not less advanced but the findings are less. We're finding less and less cures, and instead finding treatments... because treatments are far more profitable... and it's easy to make the rationale to the public because they can always use the excuse that cures are harder to find, and that treatments will be done sooner and can help the people who have the disease now. (at a tidy profit) It's hard to argue that when people will spin it that you want current people to die in pain, when in reality you just want to cure things so people don't have to deal with the disease anymore.

Furthermore people still claim their scientific and medical theroes are relvant when they've been proven wrong because otherwise they will lose their funding and money. Thus wasting resources and their intellect trying to prove scientific theroes that are long defunct because they are afraid they will be out of a job it they don't, which can even lead to intelectual dishonesty in the altering a figures and results.

Scientific and Medical advances were better off in my opinion when they were a combination of state funded and driven by rich hobbists who were into science because they loved it and didn't have to worry about their funding getting pulled and could switch their ideas with their results. At least in the fields of Medicine and low profit scinces like quantum physics.

I'm sorry, but your theory is bull. It's cute that you actually believe that a cure could exist for something, but there isn't. There are only treatments and if there actually was a cure for even anything as much as the common cold, it could have teh potential to doom the human race.

People are designed to have their own immune system. Just like how we have muscles in our body for preforming tasks. In order to be able to do a lot with out muscles, we have to train our muscles by having them do work. As we work our strength and control increases. Have you ever seen a martial artist, athlete or anybody in a physically demanding field that improved their strength and skills by having someone else do the work for them?

If a cure is developed for anything, we will depend on that, our immune systems will fall into disuse, some uncontrollable factor will change in the common cold and teh "cure" will be useless and no one on earth will have an immune system strong enough to deal with it. 



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Democratic Communism:

Democratic communism is a socio-economic system with communism as the economic basis and democracy as the governing principle. This entails that the means of production would be controlled and owned by the entire population and that political power would be in the hands of the people, whether through democracy that is representative or direct.

We often think Communism as always run like the Soviet totalitarian government, but in fact it can be a democracy, these have occurred particularly in South America (e.g. Chile), but in recent times the US has undermined and stamped them out

The US government and other western governments and Corporate business would find Democratic Communism to be a real threat and challenge as it's a stable fair system of government that works outside the capitalist system of ownership which all western governments have based their societies on, such a challenge is not easily tolerated by the wealthy of the world, it would undermine their power of ownership over us

After the highly repressive right wing military dictatorship in Cuba was overthrown that the US for some strange reason had no problem with, they suddenly started attempting to assasinate Castro on a monthly basis. Ending in a CIA attempt to invade which of course led to the Bay of Pigs and almost WWIII. If Castro had dared go democratic he'd be long dead like Allende and Lumumba, etc, etc.

This video is kind of related to the topic. The Worlds Rich controlling all the worlds population and resources through our own greed and fears, this will result eventually where a few will rule the many for ever

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo&feature=related

Grey Acumen said:
Basically, the problem with Communism is that it goes against nature. In nature, the animals that are the strongest and most skilled, or use the best strategies for hunting are the ones that survive.

Fuzzmosis has the very fundamentals. in communism, every body works, and everyone gets the same amount, if they work hard, they get paid one amount, and if they don't work hard, they STILL get paid the same amount.
ZERO motivation.
People will naturally slack off or at the very least do the bare minimum. This isn't just a matter of being lazy either, this is a basic case of reinforcing behavior. Even the most dedicated person in the world is not going to be able to put forth their best effort when they are constantly being shown that they get absolutely NOTHING for that best effort.
So how does any work get done at all? Well, that's when the government begins telling you that if you don't work the way they decide you should work, they'll kill you, or take your kids away from you, or basically throw you in chains for forced labor.
And what can the people do about it? They're in a communism, they don't even own their own money, because the government is the one who decides who gets how much. You can be sure as heck certain that the government is going to outlaw guns so that they can't have a revolution too.

Capitalism isn't always pretty, sometimes it's ruthless, and most of the time it doesn't feel fair at all, but that's just how life is. Those who put forth the most effort get the most out of it. Sometimes life throws lucky breaks, sometimes people get by on other peoples effort, but no matter what happens around you, there is still that chance to change your life for the better that is always present. Sometimes it takes a lot of risk, far more time and way too many failed attempts, but you are still ultimately the one in control of your own life.

Capitalism also has one other major advantage over communism, which is the creation of new wealth.
Almost every other system that addresses monetary issues is based on the principle that if you want to make money, there has to be someone else to make it from. if I want to make $10, someone else has to lose $10, and then for them to make back that $10 to break even, they in turn have to make $10 off of someone else, who will in turn do the same and on and so on.
Capitalism allows a person to consider the perceived value of an object.
for instance, in most places in America, you can find drinking fountains scattered wherever. for all intents and purposes, water is free. If someone told you to pay $50 for a bottle of water, you'd laugh at them. But what if you were in the middle of a desert, dying of a 3 day period with no water? Suddenly the price isn't quite so bad.
Now in that example, one person is taking advantage of the other. But what if both of them take advantage of each other at the same time? There's the phrase "one man's trash is another man's treasure." If you have something that is useless to you, but is the exact thing the other guy absolutely NEEDS, but he has something useless to him that YOU need, you both trade, and you both gave away something that was worth $0 and got something in return that was worth $50 -$1000. The $50 - $1000 didn't come from the other guy, it is new wealth.

so yeah, that's a pretty basic summation of why communism doesn't work in reality, and why capitalism does.

 I'm afraid you are incorrect, both on your ideas about Evolution, as its not alwyas the strongest or most skilled or even that with the best hunting strategy that survives, sometimes the smallest and weakest is best adapted for a ecological niche.

 

Secondly Saying Capitalism is unfair and leaving it at that, is a recipie for economic failure, for you end up with economic ineffieicencies,  market failures, backlash through collective action, etc.



 

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I'm not touching this thread with a 20 metre pole!





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Grey Acumen said:
Kasz216 said:
makingmusic476 said:
ItsaMii said:
makingmusic476 said:
They have this billboard that occasionally pops up near the Union on LSU's campus. It's basically there for people to write whatever they want, whatever comes to mind. One day I was walking by and saw that somebody had written, "Cuba has a 0% unemployment rate. Why can't we?" I almost died laughing. Yes, let's all live the wonderful lives of the Cubans.

It is so full of shit. In Cuba, some women sell their bodies for less tha a McDonald`s meal. Is that they idea of a job. I have heard stories that some of the prostitutes take the clients to their homes where they live with their parents and kids (in most communist countries there was 2-4 families per house).

Cuba has a lot of good things compared to the rest of Latin America (near 0% analfabetism, high life expectancy), but they are so poor that in most houses they use old newspapers as toilet paper. A medic makes less in a month than a guy who run errands into a Hotel (tips in dollars are worth a fortune).


Exactly. It's absolutely horrible. Not to mention, if it wasn't for the profit motive, we wouldn't have near the technological advancements that we have today. Cars, computer technology, medicine, etc. all comes from Japan and the US, the two most capitalistic countries in the world.

Remember this Soriku, if it wasn't for capitalism, there'd be no Kingdom Hearts. ;)


This is only, somewhat true. For example, medical technology seems to be less advanced since it's been "for profit" well not less advanced but the findings are less. We're finding less and less cures, and instead finding treatments... because treatments are far more profitable... and it's easy to make the rationale to the public because they can always use the excuse that cures are harder to find, and that treatments will be done sooner and can help the people who have the disease now. (at a tidy profit) It's hard to argue that when people will spin it that you want current people to die in pain, when in reality you just want to cure things so people don't have to deal with the disease anymore.

Furthermore people still claim their scientific and medical theroes are relvant when they've been proven wrong because otherwise they will lose their funding and money. Thus wasting resources and their intellect trying to prove scientific theroes that are long defunct because they are afraid they will be out of a job it they don't, which can even lead to intelectual dishonesty in the altering a figures and results.

Scientific and Medical advances were better off in my opinion when they were a combination of state funded and driven by rich hobbists who were into science because they loved it and didn't have to worry about their funding getting pulled and could switch their ideas with their results. At least in the fields of Medicine and low profit scinces like quantum physics.

I'm sorry, but your theory is bull. It's cute that you actually believe that a cure could exist for something, but there isn't. There are only treatments and if there actually was a cure for even anything as much as the common cold, it could have teh potential to doom the human race.

People are designed to have their own immune system. Just like how we have muscles in our body for preforming tasks. In order to be able to do a lot with out muscles, we have to train our muscles by having them do work. As we work our strength and control increases. Have you ever seen a martial artist, athlete or anybody in a physically demanding field that improved their strength and skills by having someone else do the work for them?

If a cure is developed for anything, we will depend on that, our immune systems will fall into disuse, some uncontrollable factor will change in the common cold and teh "cure" will be useless and no one on earth will have an immune system strong enough to deal with it.

Yeah, cause, it's not like we haven't had cures via immunization and other medicine before. Things like polio still are some of our most crippling problems.

The truth is, modern treatments deal with the symptoms and not the cause instead of worrying about the cause. There are some things are immune systems can't do, because there are some diseases people don't get cured from. Therefore our immune systems are no use in the first place.

 If polio was a probelm now, instead of a vaccine we'd have treatments that would make the symptoms less bothersome, because it would be far more profitable that way.



Soriku said:

Now for the labor: Everyone has to do work to accomplish something.

---

Anyone share opinions
 

Right there you just showed why your idea fails.  Who defines "accomplish something"?  From here you can say any dissent does accomplish something. 

Anyone trying to an idea that others think won't work or is stupid will also be labeled as not accomplishing anything.

Honestly, I can forgive you since your 13.  But you're  advocating a system that has killed millions, upon millions of its own people in Russia, and the most people by percentage in Cambodia.  

Basic college level economics shows that most (though not all) types of government economic actions create a deadweight economic loss to society, especially the main sorts of price controls that centrally planned economies use.  Again, you're 12, so its fine that you don't know this but to most anyone with an college education, economics has shown that communism fails in theory and history that it fails in fact.

 



Rab said:
Democratic Communism:

Democratic communism is a socio-economic system with communism as the economic basis and democracy as the governing principle. This entails that the means of production would be controlled and owned by the entire population and that political power would be in the hands of the people, whether through democracy that is representative or direct.

We often think Communism as always run like the Soviet totalitarian government, but in fact it can be a democracy, these have occurred particularly in South America but in recent times the US has stamped them out

The US government and other western governments and Corporate business would find Democratic Communism to be a real threat and challenge as it's a stable fair system of government that works outside the capitalist system of ownership which all western governments have based their societies on, such a challenge is not easily tolerated by the wealthy of the world, it would undermine their power over us the people

 

This video is kind of related to the topic. The Worlds Rich controlling all the worlds population and resources through our own greed and fears, this will result eventually where a few will rule the many for ever

http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=vuBo4E77ZXo&feature=related

 Socialism in the US is unpopular for several reasons. 

1. People who live here choose to, and choose to because they believe they can do better in a profit motivated system.

2. US citizens may not have the highest median income world-wide but they have the highest 2nd quartile.  This means that the 2nd quartile lives better than in any other country, while the 1st quartile is poorer in some respects they still are pretty split (see #1).

3. People above the median income (the 3rd and 4th quartiles) are the ones who run the country.  The US gov't, the States, and municipalities are very big, pretty much anyone from the top half can get a position in gov't if they wanted to.  They don't want to because of the profit motivator. The poorer half can get jobs in government pretty easily; actually Police, Military, Education, Public Health are all desparate for workers.

Revolutions (peaceful or violent) only happen when the richer half of society is still opressed by a separate political class.  In Russia and China, the only major Communist revolutionary instances, happened with considerable outside influence and world war in countries with almost no middle class.



I would cite regulation, but I know you will simply ignore it.

Communism vs Capitalism. Technically it seems Capitalism works better, yet can't work without government control or trusts, monopolies, corruption, ect will arise as we saw in America in the early 1900's. That's the main problem with capitalism is sometimes competition doesn't necessarily always fuel the integrity but combines forces.

While with Communism in theory it sounds good, but has never been executed correctly do to most governments in general being pretty bad at carrying out anything.

As for what would the world be like without money? It'd probably be exactly teh same as some other form or type of thing like money would arise. It's not money that corrupts or empowers people, but the natural human state. Unavoidable.