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Forums - General Discussion - Atheism and morality

Morality is not the act of doing something good, it's the act of conducting yourself in accordance with what your society thinks is good. If in your society, your expected to rape little boys, and you rape little boys, and do all the other things expected of you, your acting in a moral way. 

I think what you really mean when you say Morality, is Ethics.

The founder of Ethics, was Socrates. And by most accounts, he was not religions.

So, I would say without a doubt that someone who do not believe in god can value another persons life, and conduct themselves accordingly. Being the person who first came up with that idea in the first place didn't follow a god.



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"Morals" is at best a waste of time in a world with no God. If there is no God(or even gods), then we really are just lumps of flesh brought about by a random(and lucky) sequence of events billions of years ago. We are then just animals who think at a more advanced level. If all this is true, then the idea of "morals" is just that, an idea. If there is no God, we answer to noone. And who is anyone to tell me how to think, feel, and act? What authority do they have over me, or I over them.



"I feel like I could take on the whole Empire myself."

quigontcb said:

"Morals" is at best a waste of time in a world with no God. If there is no God(or even gods), then we really are just lumps of flesh brought about by a random(and lucky) sequence of events billions of years ago. We are then just animals who think at a more advanced level. If all this is true, then the idea of "morals" is just that, an idea. If there is no God, we answer to noone. And who is anyone to tell me how to think, feel, and act? What authority do they have over me, or I over them.


We answer to ourselves as species. It's all very logical. Plus Gods are not needed for intelligence (of various degrees) to ultimately collectively know what good is. The world being as it is, be it the will of a creator or not, there are infinite shades of gray between the absolutes of good an bad, thus there are infinite debates about the finer aspects of what is good or not in infinite situations. The solutions are never pure good, and to remain with clear conscience and an easy soul people turn to the Gods they invented out of ignorance. If it's Gods will, it's ok. The will of the Gods justifies mass murdering people. (And Christians have Jessus' teachings of love and peace, but who cares, let's kill people, the Old Testament is full of it so it's all right.)

I once heard a guideline of judging good (in one of the Young Indiana Jones films), it was something like: "Good is anything that favors/helps/protects life." it sounds good to me, I try to follow that. Still I kill all the mosquitoes I see. What can you do?



quigontcb said:

"Morals" is at best a waste of time in a world with no God. If there is no God(or even gods), then we really are just lumps of flesh brought about by a random(and lucky) sequence of events billions of years ago. We are then just animals who think at a more advanced level. If all this is true, then the idea of "morals" is just that, an idea. If there is no God, we answer to noone. And who is anyone to tell me how to think, feel, and act? What authority do they have over me, or I over them.



I don't agree. You can do what's right and still not believe in religion as I do. We answer to what's acceptable in sociey and your own loved ones. You don't need a god for that.



The Fury said:
mai said:

As people have mentioned not quite right. Morale is a very pragmatic phenomenon that society needs to survive, most of moral prohibitions and guidelines are based around natural rules that could be easily explained (sometimes even biological rules, such as ban on incest in most cultures), of course, eventually some of them became imperatives that not necessarily need to or even could be explained.

True while many are morals can come from either the need to survive or as sapphi_snake said 'Greek philosophers' it is religious that spread these morals and religion that put them down in writing for generations to follow. 

Agreed, though take a broad view of things. Religion is such a good thing that it has to be created if it would have never existed. There're no substantial difference between religious moral and non-religious one besides deity issue. The only thing is relevant here is that all these moral codes are dogmas, undisputed ideas that got spread through conflict or willingly accepted by other people. Take for example this century history of spread of non-religious value systems (which undoubtedly entail propaganda of certain social morale dogmas) of socialism and modern day western morale. In more distant past various philosophers created such ideological system in ethics, e.g. confucianism which is considered a religion, but in fact never disputes deity issue, it's entirely social, ethic 'religion' (there're number of other similar examples).



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mai said:

Agreed, though take a broad view of things. Religion is such a good thing that it has to be created if it would have never existed. There're no substantial difference between religious moral and non-religious one besides deity issue. The only thing is relevant here is that all these moral codes are dogmas, undisputed ideas that got spread through conflict or willingly accepted by other people. Take for example this century history of spread of non-religious value systems (which undoubtedly entail propaganda of certain social morale dogmas) of socialism and modern day western morale. In more distant past various philosophers created such ideological system in ethics, e.g. confucianism which is considered a religion, but in fact never disputes deity issue, it's entirely social, ethic 'religion' (there're number of other similar examples).


I would like to see an argumentation of that, since I don't see any irreplaceable benefits that comes form believing in supreme beings.



I have very strong morals, for instance, I think that homosexuals deserve equal rights, so do women, I think that pedophilia is vile,  I also think that religion does not entitle people to be bigots or to force there views on society in a dictatorship like way.

I am an atheist and secularist, I think its an aberration that the pope is being paid to visit my nation and spread his bile, let alone the media coverage that is disgusting and insulting to atheists and secularists, the government yesterday saying it wanted more religion in it is disturbing to say the least, we have far too much religious nonsense scumming up our political system already



ithis said:


I would like to see an argumentation of that, since I don't see any irreplaceable benefits that comes form believing in supreme beings.

That's not about 'benefits', it's just inevitable. I'm pretty sure a world 'without' religion was depicted in some episode of South Park? It's in episode where Cartman is dying to buy a Wii and eventually goes to the future, I believe =)



The Fury said:

True while many are morals can come from either the need to survive or as sapphi_snake said 'Greek philosophers' it is religious that spread these morals and religion that put them down in writing for generations to follow. 


I would argue that this is completely false. All humans everywhere created religion as early as they were able to wander at the sun and lightning. Still probably at the same time they had morals. Later, the beings they worshiped were credited with laws, since people better follow laws that are decreed by someone who can command rains, than the old village chief of the parents of the young adult student of what's right and what's wrong. So morals were just added to religion, it didn't spread morals anywhere.

As far as religions spreading a NEW moral code to a new region, it seams more like the common sense morals were already there, while the higher "Church" directed morals replaced the old "Church" directed morals. Take Mayan vs Spanish religions. Mayans beheaded humans to their gods, while the Spanish tortured and burned humans because of their god. The rest was there more or less.

Edit: The above is only valid as a debate argument with religious people who believe in old earth creationism.



mai said:

That's not about 'benefits', it's just inevitable. I'm pretty sure a world 'without' religion was depicted in some episode of South Park? It's in episode where Cartman is dying to buy a Wii and eventually goes to the future, I believe =)


Must watch that.

It's inevitable, but if a society grew out of it, I don't think there'll be any reason to invent it back.