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Forums - General Discussion - Atheism and morality

ithis said:
mai said:

That's not about 'benefits', it's just inevitable. I'm pretty sure a world 'without' religion was depicted in some episode of South Park? It's in episode where Cartman is dying to buy a Wii and eventually goes to the future, I believe =)


Must watch that.

It's inevitable, but if a society grew out of it, I don't think there'll be any reason to invent it back.

I agree,I think relgion divides and hurt's people,more than it helps them. Think of all the wars between different religions. Everybody thinks there religions are the right one.



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The Fury said:
mai said:

As people have mentioned not quite right. Morale is a very pragmatic phenomenon that society needs to survive, most of moral prohibitions and guidelines are based around natural rules that could be easily explained (sometimes even biological rules, such as ban on incest in most cultures), of course, eventually some of them became imperatives that not necessarily need to or even could be explained.

True while many are morals can come from either the need to survive or as sapphi_snake said 'Greek philosophers' it is religious that spread these morals and religion that put them down in writing for generations to follow. 

Take examples from differing faiths. Older faiths would regularly do sacrifices both human and animal, while in our western society which is based on mostly old testament laws and morals we would see these as morally bad, in those faiths at those times, a sacrifice may not have been as seen as bad but something to 'please the gods'. It is the faiths and religions that are defining what is moral.

It is recently when atheism has taken hold that many of those morals, like sacrifice was seen by newer/old testament faiths and others as more barbaric and immoral, that what the faiths see as immoral just aren't anymore as defined by understanding.

The old testament influence didn't exist up until Christianity (that's 4th century AD). Also the Greeks and Romans didn't perform human sacrifices.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:
pizzahut451 said:
chocoloco said:

Well as an atheist I like to kill, rape, pilage, steal, make child pornagraphy and basically just not give a fuck about anyone but myself. Oh yeah and I like to drown puppies.

 

To so that atheists have no morals is to say morals are absolute, only a self rightous religous person could say that especially when morals can never really be proved to be universal.

 

 

Look at the prison populations and tell me that most of them are not Christians in America.

They are not.

Proof?

the fact they comitted a crime and they are in prison

I said proof that they're not Christians, not proof that they're not good Christians. There is a difference.



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

quigontcb said:

"Morals" is at best a waste of time in a world with no God. If there is no God(or even gods), then we really are just lumps of flesh brought about by a random(and lucky) sequence of events billions of years ago. We are then just animals who think at a more advanced level. If all this is true, then the idea of "morals" is just that, an idea. If there is no God, we answer to noone. And who is anyone to tell me how to think, feel, and act? What authority do they have over me, or I over them.

We humans live together in societies. We do not live alone. You're free to do whatever you want, however if you want to coexist with other people within a society you must follow society's rules (rules without which society couldn't exist).

All animals who live within societies have rules (and we humans have the most comolex rules, as we have the most comples societies). Solitary animals don't have such rules, however we humans are not solitary (you could try to detatch yourself from society, but I doubt you'd survive).



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

oldschoolfool said:

ithis said:

 

It's inevitable, but if a society grew out of it, I don't think there'll be any reason to invent it back.

I agree,I think relgion divides and hurt's people,more than it helps them. Think of all the wars between different religions. Everybody thinks there religions are the right one.

Well, I don't know how I should react to these, quite stereotypical, comments. They sound so naive to me. Sorry, no offence =) And I'm an atheist if it concerns you.

//I'd suggest both of you to read some M.Khazin (an economist mostly known for predicting of global economic crisis in 2000-2001) on his "Global Projects" thing (some sort of civilization theory), but too bad he was never published in English.



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ithis said:

I would argue that this is completely false. All humans everywhere created religion as early as they were able to wander at the sun and lightning. Still probably at the same time they had morals. Later, the beings they worshiped were credited with laws, since people better follow laws that are decreed by someone who can command rains, than the old village chief of the parents of the young adult student of what's right and what's wrong. So morals were just added to religion, it didn't spread morals anywhere.

As far as religions spreading a NEW moral code to a new region, it seams more like the common sense morals were already there, while the higher "Church" directed morals replaced the old "Church" directed morals. Take Mayan vs Spanish religions. Mayans beheaded humans to their gods, while the Spanish tortured and burned humans because of their god. The rest was there more or less.

Edit: The above is only valid as a debate argument with religious people who believe in old earth creationism.

Morals would have differed depending on religion and belief, like you say pointing at the differences between Mayans and Spanish but South America is now mostly Christian and with it came the spread of it's teachings, laws and morals.

@sapphi_snake

The sacrifices thing was just an example of how a faith can change morals of an area.



Hmm, pie.

mai said:
oldschoolfool said:

ithis said:

 

It's inevitable, but if a society grew out of it, I don't think there'll be any reason to invent it back.

I agree,I think relgion divides and hurt's people,more than it helps them. Think of all the wars between different religions. Everybody thinks there religions are the right one.

Well, I don't know how I should react to these, quite stereotypical, comments. They sound so naive to me. Sorry, no offence =) And I'm an atheist if it concerns you.

//I'd suggest both of you to read some M.Khazin (an economist mostly known for predicting of global economic crisis in 2000-2001) on his "Global Projects" thing (some sort of civilization theory), but too bad he was never published in English.

You tease .



"I don't understand how someone could like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky, but not like Twilight!!!"

"Last book I read was Brokeback Mountain, I just don't have the patience for them unless it's softcore porn."

                                                                               (The Voice of a Generation and Seece)

"If you cant stand the sound of your own voice than dont become a singer !!!!!"

                                                                               (pizzahut451)

mai said:
oldschoolfool said:

ithis said:

 

It's inevitable, but if a society grew out of it, I don't think there'll be any reason to invent it back.

I agree,I think relgion divides and hurt's people,more than it helps them. Think of all the wars between different religions. Everybody thinks there religions are the right one.

Well, I don't know how I should react to these, quite stereotypical, comments. They sound so naive to me. Sorry, no offence =) And I'm an atheist if it concerns you.

I'd like to know why you think his comments are stereotypical & naive :/

I think that if there was one thing that all religions had in common, it's that they all think THEIRS is the correct one, this in turn creates conflict ..etc

and also an athiest here, but know more about different religions than probably half the people who claim to be followers



pizzahut451 said:
chocoloco said:

Well as an atheist I like to kill, rape, pilage, steal, make child pornagraphy and basically just not give a fuck about anyone but myself. Oh yeah and I like to drown puppies.

 

To so that atheists have no morals is to say morals are absolute, only a self rightous religous person could say that especially when morals can never really be proved to be universal.

 

 

Look at the prison populations and tell me that most of them are not Christians in America.

They are not.

My wording was off, your saying most prisoners are CHristians as is true right?



I agree. I used to be too religious, but then i got to a stage when i was agnostic. It was then that i became a more open minded person i gotta admit. And even though i'm now back to having faith in God, i still hold the same belief i had in my agnostic period. I truly believe that religion isn't the problem as much as it is the people who claim to have superior knowledge in it and guide people wrong. 

Anyways you're right. Being moral has nothing to do with your faith(in most aspects at least). And if anything as most people have pointed, it is those people misguided in there faith which are lacking in morality mostly.