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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Other M Samus Emotional Breakdown Explained *SPOILERS*

wfz said:

Replace "creator" with "main developer" then. That wasn't my point in the least. I don't know why you're being so vicious with me, I'm not against you in any way.(1)

 

Again, I haven't played Fushion, but I believe it showcased more of the Sakamoto Samus, but Other M was his big chance to really go inter her character from his vision. His vision clashes with that of players, who are used to a silent, almost 0 personality avatar, and shitstorms happen. I understand you're upset, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.(2)

 

The only problems I have are the shoehroning of "it's sexist!"(3) and the idea you were saying that PTSD is something you get over and shouldn't randomly pop up again,(4) which has since been laid down. You don't need to point your gun at me, I'm not debating, I'm trying to having a thoughtful conversation.


1. Sorry, bad mood from those that want to just demonize those that don't like this direction. Plus I'm annoyed you insist I can't know about PSTD just because I got a few details off. Not everyone with a personal experience with something becomes omniscient about it.

2. I won't speak for others, but zero personality is not how a lot of us see her. We see her as a badass stoic, not just a bland action character. We'd watch Steven Segal movies if we wanted that.

3. If it's a cultural interpretation, that's misunderstanding, not shoehorning.

4. That is NOT what I wrote. I wrote that whatever trauma was shown in the manga, she did get over in scenes shown that took place before this one. Nor did I claim that if she had PTSD, it shouldn't show up randomly. I'm stating it DID not show up randomly. It just showed up now, but without any context to make it fit. That is why Sakamoto should have at least retconned the past encounters to show Samus at least having some problems with Ridley before.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

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Khuutra said:
Mr Khan said:

I think that Sakamoto's dismissal of the Prime series for story purposes is merely because Prime was rather self-contained in terms of story. At least, i'm giving him the benefit of the doubt on that point, as i prefer to assume that people aren't total douchebags without proper evidence

In Prime's case, Retro knew what they were digging into story-wise, because the games were interquels (though that isn't a word), they couldn't tamper with what came after, so they developed Phazon into a plot point all its own, and thus ran the trilogy through on that to the end of that specific threat.

SPD1 is likewise wedging Other M into the timeline as established, but Sakamoto chose to tackle the main timeline head-on, which then involved some ret-conning, which is slight in most cases, such as these changes to Samus' relationship with Ridley, and also the fact that the surprise revelation in Fusion that the Federation was breeding Metroids really shouldn't have been a surprise to Samus or Adam

Though i would like to see the issue of the Space Pirates resolved, given that they're referred to specifically as "Zebesians" in Other M, whereas Corruption obviously gave them a homeworld of their own, and there were hints of a command structure that did not involve Mother Brain scattered throughout

Long story short, Sakamoto treating them as a side-story is not off-track, given that it was a self-contained sequence of events (except that Prime needed the events of the original Metroid as prologue). To declare them non-canon would be a bit extreme, and i imagine there's some cultural standard of politeness that would stop him from making such an egotistical declaration

My understandinig was that Zebesians were just one kind of Space Pirate, of which there are many (with Ridley and Kraid being among other kinds, not to mention Mother Brain).

But anyway, it doesn't take an official declaration of being non-canon to pretend that the Prime games never happened, which is what happened in Other M and what I would be willing to bet will happen in every Sakamoto Metroid from here until doomsday.

But i'm saying how would acknowledging the Prime games really have an impact on Other M's story? The only problem they might pose is that obviously a great many Metroids were bred by the Space Pirates, so the events of Metroid II could have been pointless (though you have to stretch your imagination to make Metroid II make sense in the first place, given that there had to have been more than the 30-some Metroids that game portrayed).

 

Whether he considers them to be canon may very well be a non-issue



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

Mr Khan said:
Khuutra said:

My understandinig was that Zebesians were just one kind of Space Pirate, of which there are many (with Ridley and Kraid being among other kinds, not to mention Mother Brain).

But anyway, it doesn't take an official declaration of being non-canon to pretend that the Prime games never happened, which is what happened in Other M and what I would be willing to bet will happen in every Sakamoto Metroid from here until doomsday.

But i'm saying how would acknowledging the Prime games really have an impact on Other M's story? The only problem they might pose is that obviously a great many Metroids were bred by the Space Pirates, so the events of Metroid II could have been pointless (though you have to stretch your imagination to make Metroid II make sense in the first place, given that there had to have been more than the 30-some Metroids that game portrayed).

 

Whether he considers them to be canon may very well be a non-issue

Well, for the sake of being on-topic, Samus beat up Ridley a lot in those games, and every time it looked like he was really finally for-sure dead

And yes, the advent of the freaky-deaky Metroids bred by the Space Pirates and spawned by Dark Samus would also be relevant



LordTheNightKnight said:
wfz said:

Replace "creator" with "main developer" then. That wasn't my point in the least. I don't know why you're being so vicious with me, I'm not against you in any way.(1)

 

Again, I haven't played Fushion, but I believe it showcased more of the Sakamoto Samus, but Other M was his big chance to really go inter her character from his vision. His vision clashes with that of players, who are used to a silent, almost 0 personality avatar, and shitstorms happen. I understand you're upset, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.(2)

 

The only problems I have are the shoehroning of "it's sexist!"(3) and the idea you were saying that PTSD is something you get over and shouldn't randomly pop up again,(4) which has since been laid down. You don't need to point your gun at me, I'm not debating, I'm trying to having a thoughtful conversation.


1. Sorry, bad mood from those that want to just demonize those that don't like this direction. Plus I'm annoyed you insist I can't know about PSTD just because I got a few details off. Not everyone with a personal experience with something becomes omniscient about it.

2. I won't speak for others, but zero personality is not how a lot of us see her. We see her as a badass stoic, not just a bland action character. We'd watch Steven Segal movies if we wanted that.

3. If it's a cultural interpretation, that's misunderstanding, not shoehorning.

4. That is NOT what I wrote. I wrote that whatever trauma was shown in the manga, she did get over in scenes shown that took place before this one. Nor did I claim that if she had PTSD, it shouldn't show up randomly. I'm stating it DID not show up randomly. It just showed up now, but without any context to make it fit. That is why Sakamoto should have at least retconned the past encounters to show Samus at least having some problems with Ridley before.


1) Don't worry about it, and I'll have to admit that I kinda got a little overly tweaked about the PTSD thing. I'm sorry if it felt I went off on you earlier.

2) Stoic and badass, I understand. I also think a lot of developers saw her that way. I do think that the fact that she never said much or showed much personality made it easier to show her this way, and so it became who she was. But don't you think she was also like an Avatar for the player, like Link is? Where you also somewhat throw your own emotions and thoughts into who she is and how she reacts? Maybe it was just me, haha, but i did!

3) Lets say that Samus was the epitome of a stereotipical "I need a man's help to do anything" woman. Now, that would sure as hell be bad characterization due to the portrayal of her previous persona, but is it sexist? What about all the guys who fit into idiotic stereotypes? They're just characters meant to fit into the story the game is trying to tell. I don't think the developers are trying to generalize all women/men in that regard. Horrible characterization? Sure. Sexism? I still don't see it quite like that.

 

4) I must have misunderstood your point then. When I was making the case for PTSD I was assuming it was under the principle that PTSD was for sure supposed to be the developer's interpretation of it. If the developer made no notion twoards PTSD and it was only fans making that claim, then yeah it doesn't fit at all.

If PTSD was Sakamoto's reason, then the reason her PTSD hasn't seem to show up before is because Sakamoto never had control of her personality in recent times (with technology allowing such advances). I believe he was trying to show his idea of her personality in Fusion, again, I never played it, but Other M was his first time to really show what he saw Samus as. So he took the opportunity to show us that she has PTSD (Assuming that's what he meant) over Ridley. that's fine. Bad characterization, maybe. Not fitting with other recent games? That's coz Sakamoto had no say in those games, and he would rather toss them aside to show his Samus instead.



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wfz said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
wfz said:

Replace "creator" with "main developer" then. That wasn't my point in the least. I don't know why you're being so vicious with me, I'm not against you in any way.(1)

 

Again, I haven't played Fushion, but I believe it showcased more of the Sakamoto Samus, but Other M was his big chance to really go inter her character from his vision. His vision clashes with that of players, who are used to a silent, almost 0 personality avatar, and shitstorms happen. I understand you're upset, and I don't think there's anything wrong with it.(2)

 

The only problems I have are the shoehroning of "it's sexist!"(3) and the idea you were saying that PTSD is something you get over and shouldn't randomly pop up again,(4) which has since been laid down. You don't need to point your gun at me, I'm not debating, I'm trying to having a thoughtful conversation.


1. Sorry, bad mood from those that want to just demonize those that don't like this direction. Plus I'm annoyed you insist I can't know about PSTD just because I got a few details off. Not everyone with a personal experience with something becomes omniscient about it.

2. I won't speak for others, but zero personality is not how a lot of us see her. We see her as a badass stoic, not just a bland action character. We'd watch Steven Segal movies if we wanted that.

3. If it's a cultural interpretation, that's misunderstanding, not shoehorning.

4. That is NOT what I wrote. I wrote that whatever trauma was shown in the manga, she did get over in scenes shown that took place before this one. Nor did I claim that if she had PTSD, it shouldn't show up randomly. I'm stating it DID not show up randomly. It just showed up now, but without any context to make it fit. That is why Sakamoto should have at least retconned the past encounters to show Samus at least having some problems with Ridley before.


1) Don't worry about it, and I'll have to admit that I kinda got a little overly tweaked about the PTSD thing. I'm sorry if it felt I went off on you earlier.

2) Stoic and badass, I understand. I also think a lot of developers saw her that way. I do think that the fact that she never said much or showed much personality made it easier to show her this way, and so it became who she was. But don't you think she was also like an Avatar for the player, like Link is? Where you also somewhat throw your own emotions and thoughts into who she is and how she reacts? Maybe it was just me, haha, but i did!

3) Lets say that Samus was the epitome of a stereotipical "I need a man's help to do anything" woman. Now, that would sure as hell be bad characterization due to the portrayal of her previous persona, but is it sexist? What about all the guys who fit into idiotic stereotypes? They're just characters meant to fit into the story the game is trying to tell. I don't think the developers are trying to generalize all women/men in that regard. Horrible characterization? Sure. Sexism? I still don't see it quite like that.

 

4) I must have misunderstood your point then. When I was making the case for PTSD I was assuming it was under the principle that PTSD was for sure supposed to be the developer's interpretation of it. If the developer made no notion twoards PTSD and it was only fans making that claim, then yeah it doesn't fit at all.

If PTSD was Sakamoto's reason, then the reason her PTSD hasn't seem to show up before is because Sakamoto never had control of her personality in recent times (with technology allowing such advances). I believe he was trying to show his idea of her personality in Fusion, again, I never played it, but Other M was his first time to really show what he saw Samus as. So he took the opportunity to show us that she has PTSD (Assuming that's what he meant) over Ridley. that's fine. Bad characterization, maybe. Not fitting with other recent games? That's coz Sakamoto had no say in those games, and he would rather toss them aside to show his Samus instead.

1. Then I think it was just a clash that can happen, especially with such a heated topic. Plus it's hard to tell a polite tone from a mean one on the internet, and that leaves room for communication problems.

2. I've actually known about her past in the manga. I knew the chozo raised her. I also knew she could talk and have feelings. Fusion made that clear. And Zero Mission has one of my favorite moments, showing Samus's carving in the wall she made when she was a girl, of her and her chozo adoptive family. Sakamoto made both those games, so I'm not against Samus as a feeling person.

Prime had one of the most iconic badass moments, in a cutscene. A rock from the rock boss (can't remember his name) flies around and hits the back of Samus's helmet. She turns back, just to see what it was, but when she realized it was nothing, she just moved on.

So I saw her as like Vampire Hunter D. Not unfeeling, just the strong, yet still caring, type.

3. I think it's the downgrade that seems sexist, especially when it seems that Sakamoto apparently wants to appeal to lady gamers. So it seems sexist to assume they want a weaker and more talky Samus.

4. Again, that could work, but only if he had shown flashbacks to at least show Samus had some problems even in those other games. Heck, I would have shown Samus being frozen with fear in a flashback to when she was a soldier and this was the first time since she was a girl that she faced Ridleyh, and then show her still a little fearful in flashbacks from the other games, just to show she isn't totally over this, but still have her just half freak out in the current game.

On that note, I would also have the weapon authorization have real reasons, such as a room that will totally explode if you use missiles, so she shuts them off whenever she's there, not just shuts them off until she's told she could use them.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

Reading through all the comments and differing opinions, a question arises that I cannot answer myself.

Is it acceptable among fans of a videogame series to see their gaming icon be completely redefined by one of the co-creators of the series even though his vision is at odds with her portrayal in past games going back to the 1980s?

This fundamentally gets down to who defines gaming icons? The gaming public who made the series a phenomenon? The creators of the series?



Killiana1a said:

Reading through all the comments and differing opinions, a question arises that I cannot answer myself.

Is it acceptable among fans of a videogame series to see their gaming icon be completely redefined by one of the co-creators of the series even though his vision is at odds with her portrayal in past games going back to the 1980s?

This fundamentally gets down to who defines gaming icons? The gaming public who made the series a phenomenon? The creators of the series?


Well if people buy your work in droves because of X, then trying to turn it into Y might be a legal right of the owner, but to expect people to buy it won't work.



A flashy-first game is awesome when it comes out. A great-first game is awesome forever.

Plus, just for the hell of it: Kelly Brook at the 2008 BAFTAs

LordTheNightKnight said:
Killiana1a said:

Reading through all the comments and differing opinions, a question arises that I cannot answer myself.

Is it acceptable among fans of a videogame series to see their gaming icon be completely redefined by one of the co-creators of the series even though his vision is at odds with her portrayal in past games going back to the 1980s?

This fundamentally gets down to who defines gaming icons? The gaming public who made the series a phenomenon? The creators of the series?


Well if people buy your work in droves because of X, then trying to turn it into Y might be a legal right of the owner, but to expect people to buy it won't work.

My sentiments exactly. If you do a complete 360 from the portrayal of Samus from Metroid through the Prime series, you should expect a bit of blowback.

Newton's Third Law of Motion applies: To every action there is always an equal and opposite reaction



Killiana1a said:

Reading through all the comments and differing opinions, a question arises that I cannot answer myself.

Is it acceptable among fans of a videogame series to see their gaming icon be completely redefined by one of the co-creators of the series even though his vision is at odds with her portrayal in past games going back to the 1980s?

This fundamentally gets down to who defines gaming icons? The gaming public who made the series a phenomenon? The creators of the series?

It just taps into the old problem of divided fanbases. Look at other franchises and characters that have changed over the years: Sonic, Mario, even Donkey Kong has divisions in the fanbase between the Country lovers, Country haters and Arcade lovers, and Jungle Beat lovers



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.