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Forums - General Discussion - Where would the world be right now if religion never existed?

chocoloco said:
haxxiy said:

*sigh*

Even if most people here seem to be non-religious, they still have a very colorful way of seeing things. No religion would definitely not mean less war.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Human race would find another excuses to kill themselves like they always did.It's a miracle our species still exist considering how uncooperative, physically unprivileged and violent we are compared to almost anything else in this world.

One of the best posts here. This is of course assuming that the human race has a tendency to be evil. I think that because throughout history most war were fought for power which also involved religion as its backbone causes people to think the world would be peaceful without religion. People would still fight over power if religion did not exist. Also living life for power in money could be just like a religion. In the end, I agree that the human species is selfish and has to be for its survival as individuals or groups so there would always be war.


Thanks for you support sir.

It's like they say, man is man's wolf. One could even say that some religions, much like the state, considering both as a form of social contract, could actually have helped mankind to avoid total anarchy over the course of ages.



 

 

 

 

 

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haxxiy said:
chocoloco said:
haxxiy said:

*sigh*

Even if most people here seem to be non-religious, they still have a very colorful way of seeing things. No religion would definitely not mean less war.

Wake up and smell the coffee. Human race would find another excuses to kill themselves like they always did.It's a miracle our species still exist considering how uncooperative, physically unprivileged and violent we are compared to almost anything else in this world.

One of the best posts here. This is of course assuming that the human race has a tendency to be evil. I think that because throughout history most war were fought for power which also involved religion as its backbone causes people to think the world would be peaceful without religion. People would still fight over power if religion did not exist. Also living life for power in money could be just like a religion. In the end, I agree that the human species is selfish and has to be for its survival as individuals or groups so there would always be war.


Thanks for you support sir.

It's like they say, man is man's wolf. One could even say that some religions, much like the state, considering both as a form of social contract, could actually have helped mankind to avoid total anarchy over the course of ages.

Yes you would think that a social contract would be meant to protect from chaos. Obviously the social contract of religion that we have in "free" countries has bit us in the ass. As you say,  society must blame itself by allowing themselves to be bitten, either way I Humanity does not seem to be able to escape beings its own wolf.The idea that humans are full of everything nice when religion is excluded is like saying we would be robots without it, in other words no free will because everything is good.



WessleWoggle said:
pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:

 

You talk of rubbish such as "souls"and "breath of life" and "spirit', as if they were facts. Please present proof that this nonsense is a "fact".

 

 

Wow, you really dont believe in souls??? Seriously now?? I can see how someone can not believe in God or jesus or heaven but how can man not believe in soul???

 

Also, existance of a human soul is a PROVEN FACT.

A fact huh? Unless you're talking about that study they did when they figured out a minute amount of weight leaves the body upon death(this study is flawed btw)... There's no proof for a human soul.

Just as little nickpick here:
 A DVD with a movie written on it doesn't weight anymore than a blank DVD. Thus we do know stuff exist that has no weight

 To a blind man the color red doesn't exist.



I guess the world would be a better place if religion would be only private. But all this powerfull institutions like the christian church and the muslims... thirst only for more power.

more power...more power...



 

 

"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value..."

 

Alan Greenspan, 1967

Phobos said:

I guess the world would be a better place if religion would be only private. But all this powerfull institutions like the christian church and the muslims... thirst only for more power.

more power...more power...


The key word is power. Of course power, knowledge, religion, laws, wealth ,etc. are not bad things . They just can't save man from himself.



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And if you know something about the history you know, all religions are a construct of former faith/ religion.

The big religions like christianity, Islam and Judaism are nothig more then charlatanery in a very big scale.



 

 

"In the absence of the gold standard, there is no way to protect savings from confiscation through inflation. There is no safe store of value..."

 

Alan Greenspan, 1967

Phobos said:

And if you know something about the history you know, all religions are a construct of former faith/ religion.

The big religions like christianity, Islam and Judaism are nothig more then charlatanery in a very big scale.


 If there is a true faith  this would be the expected pattern. 



Smidlee said:
WessleWoggle said:
pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:

 

You talk of rubbish such as "souls"and "breath of life" and "spirit', as if they were facts. Please present proof that this nonsense is a "fact".

 

 

Wow, you really dont believe in souls??? Seriously now?? I can see how someone can not believe in God or jesus or heaven but how can man not believe in soul???

 

Also, existance of a human soul is a PROVEN FACT.

A fact huh? Unless you're talking about that study they did when they figured out a minute amount of weight leaves the body upon death(this study is flawed btw)... There's no proof for a human soul.

Just as little nickpick here:
 A DVD with a movie written on it doesn't weight anymore than a blank DVD. Thus we do know stuff exist that has no weight

 To a blind man the color red doesn't exist.

That doesn't equate to proof or 'proven fact' as pizzahut451 implied. Just that the possibility of the soul existing is still present. You could say that about a lot of things.

Your DVD example is also flawed because we obviously have methods of measuring and reading the contents of a DVD. We also can't see Infra-red or wavlengths of light beyond the specturm of our eyes, yet we know they exist because we have instruments that are capable of measuring and detecting them.

Until a study shows measurable detection of the soul, there is no evidence to suggest its existence. Not knocking belief in the human soul, but saying that it's existence is fact and proven is wrong.



sapphi_snake said:
Calmador said:
sapphi_snake said:

@Calmador

I'm not an expert on animals but I think animals are obviously capable of making such risks... I had a dog named Happy when I was younger and he showed a lot of love and was protective of me... willing to risk himself for me when a much bigger dog would bark at me. Animals are Animals.... not evolution. I also believe animals have souls because in the Bible it says G-d gave them the breathe of life... the same breathe of life that mankind received... but the difference is we were made special and with a spirit which is another topic. Agian, animals are animals not evolution.

Such nonsense all in one post. I already explained to you that some animals (the social kind) form societies that have rules (morals) that make living together possible and assure the survival of the group (and thus assure a better chance of survival to the individual members of said group). Humans live in groups 'cause our ancestors found that living in groups gave them a better chance of survival. We developed rules and morals in order to make living together in a group possible. It has everything to do with evolution. Your example with the dog presents more a relationship of symbiosis rather than interdependence (the type of relationship formed between humans).

You talk of rubbish such as "souls"and "breath of life" and "spirit', as if they were facts. Please present proof that this nonsense is a "fact".

Me using Fallout was just an example... of how ugly it would look. It's better to die then not live with morals... but your right most of aren't perfect and would probably end up doing some evils at the very least.

Fallout - the world with no society. Morals have no place outside of a society. And beleive me, I've seen far worse fictional worlds than that of Fallout. It was the harsh living conditions and lack of resources that made the world of Fallout the way it was.

It used to be? It can be again? It can be right now... that's sad. Man-kind can change thier mind... I agree with the above. But I think its critical to see what's the reason behind actions like that. War? Self-defense? Hatred? Revenge? ... nations started cooperating with each other? Kind-ness? Greed? Power? Admiration?

Anyways I don't really see your point?

I told you: morals change all the time. They're relative, not absolute. I'm pretty sure you think otherwise.

Think about what you asked... why can't the truth be argued about? It's something to accept or deny. If someone asked me... What was your dog's name? I'd say Happy... and it's true and I wouldn't argue about it with people lol It's also Biblical.

If you don't argue than how do you know what is true and what is not? If you say that X is true you have to present evidence that it is. When someone asks you what your dogs name is whatever you answer they'll beleive you, because your dog (being yours) has whatever name you say it is. If you claim a "Creator" exists, present proof that it does. Your "truth" IS nothing more than an assumption, as you never had any empirical evidence to prove that it is a concrete fact. You accept it blindly 'cause you like how it sounds or grew up with it, were indoctrinated into it, and don't have the will or intelectual capacity to question it.

An insult? What for? I didn't do anything... but you went ahead did it anyways? The Bible prophesied Christians would be insulted, judged and put through hard times for our faith... if I remember correctly specifically just for talking about it.

I was merely pointing out one of your characteristics. It may be a negative one, but your church elders appreciate it. And please spare me the persecution complex you people have. That's what annyos me about your masochistic religion. You persecute others far more harshly then anyone "persecutes" you, but you not only overreact when someone says something bad about you, but you also love it 'cause it gives you a masochistic pleasure that something written in that book is true (as if not all groups would get criticised at some point, and your group is the only one).

 

"Such nonsense all in one post. I already explained to you that some animals (the social kind) form societies that have rules (morals) that make living together possible and assure the survival of the group (and thus assure a better chance of survival to the individual members of said group). Humans live in groups 'cause our ancestors found that living in groups gave them a better chance of survival. We developed rules and morals in order to make living together in a group possible. It has everything to do with evolution. Your example with the dog presents more a relationship of symbiosis rather than interdependence (the type of relationship formed between humans)."

So morals came from groups that formed to give a better chance of survival. Very darwin... I wonder where this idea came from?

Morals are not about self-preservation, they can be self-less... thinking about it, it sounds contradictary... I'll do what's right and good so I can survive... there's self-ishness in that. You do what's good and right because it's good and right, even if it means not surviving. That's why such way of thinking could'nt have been possible without G-d and doesn't fit very well in your example because it's about survival.

"You talk of rubbish such as "souls"and "breath of life" and "spirit', as if they were facts. Please present proof that this nonsense is a "fact".

It's beyond me to prove it to you. It's something you accept or deny.

"I told you: morals change all the time. They're relative, not absolute. I'm pretty sure you think otherwise."

Yeah I do, absolute makes sense...  it wouldn't make sense for them to change all the time... so today people think killing people for fun is good.... tomorrow they think this... that... it'll never be right that way.... EVEN if they get it "right" because in the end only G-d can do good and you need G-d to even begin to do any good because good is pure.

"If you don't argue than how do you know what is true and what is not? If you say that X is true you have to present evidence that it is. When someone asks you what your dogs name is whatever you answer they'll beleive you, because your dog (being yours) has whatever name you say it is. If you claim a "Creator" exists, present proof that it does. Your "truth" IS nothing more than an assumption, as you never had any empirical evidence to prove that it is a concrete fact. You accept it blindly 'cause you like how it sounds or grew up with it, were indoctrinated into it, and don't have the will or intelectual capacity to question it."

You don't either... and that's why it's something to be accepted or denied. My dog's name is Happy... do you believe me?

 

 

Were getting no-where... and I honestly never wanted to argue

Morals are not about self-preservation, they can be self-less... thinking about it, it sounds contradictary... I'll do what's right and good so I can survive... there's self-ishness in that. You do what's good and right because it's good and right, even if it means not surviving. That's why such way of thinking could'nt have been possible without G-d and doesn't fit very well in your example because it's about survival.

I already told you, morals are for the preservation of the group. Living within a group is necessary for an individuals survival, hebce the individual respect follows certain rules to assure that the group survives and people can coexist within the group. This also brings him/her a personal advantage.

You don't either... and that's why it's something to be accepted or denied. My dog's name is Happy... do you believe me?

I've never seen such a lack of reasoning ever. Your dog's name is whatever you say it is. If you say your dog's name is Happy, then it's name Happy. If you say your dog's name is X-345 then it's name is -345. A name is an abstract notion. Why do you beleive that that thing you call "truth" is true? You say you have to accept or deny it, but before you reach the accepting/denying you have to go through a process of resoning to determine if what you call "truth" is in fact true. Sounds to me like you've skipped that part and blindly accepted something.

It's beyond me to prove it to you. It's something you accept or deny.

No reasoning whatsoever on your part.

Were getting no-where... and I honestly never wanted to argue

I knew we would get no where the first moment I read your post. Don't know why I even tortured my keyboard's buttons typing this.

Your expecting me to prove G-d with what? Within the limits the diciplines that man-kind made? G-d is in a completly higher and different order then the one we know... we literally can't... think about what were talking about for a minute here. Your asking me to bring G-d down to our level? That's why I kept telling you that some of these truths are meant to just be accepted.... we have to trust G-d's words on that... because it's beyond us. You have to be open to G-d. One of the reasons I believe in G-d is because his always right as far as I read. How do I know.. well because after trusting his words... you see it.

The process is completely opposite to yours... you accept it and trust it's truth... and then you see the evidence...

While you want to see evidence and won't accept without a method... and then you accept it as true.

About my dog question, my point is you were willing to believe me... someone you practically don't know at all... I could look like anyone in the world... could be person with little to no credibilty for being honest for all you know ... but you believed me. Some guy that's definitely well below G-d... now if you can try to do that with G-d... read what he has to say and see how he see's things then you can actually see he is right and truth.

This might sound strange but..

You might be struggling with doubt right at this moment struggling believing what I said above... fight that.. .by saying Jesus Christ... I've seen demons before and that always scares them, but you probably won't see them.

I'm done here, see you around the forum.

 



All gaming systems, consoles/PC, have thier perks... why fight over preferences? I like Coke and you like Pepsi, that's it, let's not fight over which toy we like best cause that's what they are. Is someone's preference in a toy important or is the relationship between you and your neighbor more important? Answer is obvious, but THE most important thing is your relationship with God almighty. God Bless you in Jesus's name.

I can communicate without talking... I can send a loved one money without actually sending money... and I can commit theft without the product disappearing, the point of theft is the point of theft not one of it's possible symptoms which is the product dissappearing. The thief wants to gain something without paying for it, that's the point of theft, the thief doesn't have to care or anybody else has to care if the product dissappears. The product dissappearing is just a possible symptom of theft. Gifts are sacrfices, in order to give a gift, it has to be a genuine sacrfice/gift, meaning a copy of the game isn't still in your PC. Piracy is theft and/or being a culprit of theft.

Scoobes said:
Smidlee said:
WessleWoggle said:
pizzahut451 said:
sapphi_snake said:

 

You talk of rubbish such as "souls"and "breath of life" and "spirit', as if they were facts. Please present proof that this nonsense is a "fact".

 

 

Wow, you really dont believe in souls??? Seriously now?? I can see how someone can not believe in God or jesus or heaven but how can man not believe in soul???

 

Also, existance of a human soul is a PROVEN FACT.

A fact huh? Unless you're talking about that study they did when they figured out a minute amount of weight leaves the body upon death(this study is flawed btw)... There's no proof for a human soul.

Just as little nickpick here:
 A DVD with a movie written on it doesn't weight anymore than a blank DVD. Thus we do know stuff exist that has no weight

 To a blind man the color red doesn't exist.

That doesn't equate to proof or 'proven fact' as pizzahut451 implied. Just that the possibility of the soul existing is still present. You could say that about a lot of things.

Your DVD example is also flawed because we obviously have methods of measuring and reading the contents of a DVD. We also can't see Infra-red or wavlengths of light beyond the specturm of our eyes, yet we know they exist because we have instruments that are capable of measuring and detecting them.

Until a study shows measurable detection of the soul, there is no evidence to suggest its existence. Not knocking belief in the human soul, but saying that it's existence is fact and proven is wrong.

You got to have a "soul" reader just like an example of DVD. :) 

 THe DVD example is limited  since the DVD (or the player) is not examining itself. Thus to the DVD player movies doesn't exist. We as outsiders (apart from DVD and player) are able to understand "the movie". 

While you can't put a soul in a test tube our society is based on the idea (or fact) man has a soul or whatever you want to call it.