[ 13 But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved.]

He never ordered to rape, but he did order to kill, he could because he had promised that

[Do not marvel at this, because the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.]

[and I have hope toward God, which hope these [men] themselves also entertain, that there is going to be a resurrection of both the righteous and the unrighteous]

You are right

[You believe there is one God, do you? You are doing quite well. And yet the demons believe and shudder.]

What country is that? It says Romania in your profile but.. with Cheaucescu and all who oppressed the church in Romania under communism during so many years I wouldnt have guessed Romania was the most religious.

It is interesting the criticisms thrown at the Christian faith specifically, and God in general.  On the one hand, experientially, the argument is God is not here.  There is no evidence of God being anywhere, thus there can't be a God.  Then, theoretically, the argument is that God is too much of a control freak and too much of a dictator, so no one would really want to live under that.   What people would want is God to somehow selectively meddle in the universe, according to the whims and wishes of what people want.  And to have everything funnel in that way, you would have a very weird set of reality, and people not in the same universe.

So, if there isn't God in this universe, exactly what would a universe with God look like?  Maybe people could theorize and postulate on that one.  Or maybe some people, deep down, don't want any God at all, because it would mean it would infringe upon their personal preferences and their freedoms to act how they choose.  Of course, maybe this is too difficult for people to do, to postulate what it would be like, or even a simplier question of if there IS a God in this universe, how would you know.

My understanding of Catholic theology is that they consider justification something that produces fruits, and people are called to obey the commands of God, and act.  This is to be done out of who they are, empowered by the grace of God, and it is judicial in nature, with the sacraments being vehicles that empower and distribute the grace.  And there is judgement and it is legal.  Reformed theology (say Calvinism) separates it, and ends up speaking of total depravity, that man is so far gone that even believing is empowered by God, and good works are a sign of God and work, and it is by God and of God alone.  All that is in this world is because God made it so, and God selects some, and not others.  And these people abide until the end, as God preserves them. 

Then you get into Evangelical theology, where they want people to choose whether or not they will become Calvinists.

I believe in all this, the Evangelical theology suffers too much from what goes on in the head and the emotions, rather than a measure of the heart of a person, and genuine living and trusting.  Emo Phillips happened to provide an interesting critique of this in this bit he said:

When I was a kid, I prayed and prayed for a bike.  I didn't get the bike, so I stole it, and asked for forgiveness. 

To that line, I will get an evangelical who will say, "No no no... that is wrong!" but it is the conclusions one reaches from their theology and understanding of salvation.  It is ALL about being forgiven, and not much else in this life.  Maybe you do get a bit like Luther where people naturally do good works out of appreciation for Jesus, as graditude.  On that, I would like to borrow a bit from the rest of Reform theology and go, Hmm... I don't think so, and then say that maybe a bit of the empowering of Grace is needed.

Coptics, other Christians in Muslim countrys, Christians in China, and the bulk of people in the Orthodox faith, particularly in Russia, have gone under persecution in throughout history.  It seems the way to strengthen a faith is to persecute it and try to stomp it out.  If the followers remain constant in what they believe in, and show themselves to be different, they win converts to their faith.

It appears that offering people personal freedom does more to make religion less relevant, particularly if the economy is good, and people don't need to suffer because there are enough goods out there.  People then can pick their own drug of choice to medicate their own discontentments, and not worry about religion at all.  

Don't drop verse 10 from that:

8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

(From: http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians 2:8-10&version=NIV )

Apparently, people of the Evangelical mindset, seem to not want to think about verse 10.  May I ask a question here: To what end are people "saved" if it isn't to do good works and bless others?  To "go to heaven when you die"?

If God was so concerned with people believing certain information to be true, why wouldn't God send out angels to do parlor tricks and get people to then believe God is so, and is able to do things, and then people would believe and they they would die on the spot?  And then God could have the angels show people that there is a heaven they go into.

Well, I will take issue with the "go to heaven when you die" because you end up reading into the text.  The New Testament texts talk about Jesus returning again and there being a New Heaven and New Earth.   That is the final destination.  Exactly why does "Go to heaven when you die" come up?  Maybe people don't want to believe that God would be involved in the material world or cases about it (By and by on the other side...).  I will say all this can be argued to be gnostic in nature.  Well, at least it is cheap.  Have people think that they just need to believe things be true and be thankful God isn't so demanding.  It is pretty easy.  You can have people say prayers and believe they are Christians.  They don't even really have to meet anyone other, or care for their own in their churches (to not do this is to say you are worse than infidel).  It is nice and convenient.  You can also harvest money off them and create a class of individuals called "preachers" who really can't do much in life, but boy do they know how to talk.

I wasn't going to bother posting again in this thread, and I do apologize in advance for my assumption: I couldn't help but feel that your post was direceted toward me (among others obviously).

Firstly, the condescending tone is very much unappreciated.

Secondly, many of us are simply applying our values to what he had done. What else are we supposed to judge it by? They are our values, afterall. If I had believed in a god that had created autonomous, free-willed people then took some of said people - innocent people, and traded them off as property, then I would reject that god.

It's not that I think God had no right to do what he did, I simply don't believe he exists and that if he had, it'd be an awfully contradicting thing he had done (not anything akin to a benevolent being). To me, it'd be like jailing Tiger Woods' wife for him cheating on her.

I'm finished with the thread now though, so feel free to have the last word.

Great another endless religious thread, here's the thing, a religion does not really exist, there is no absolute truth to it, what a religion is reflects its time, place and followers. It's scripture, philosophy and mentality is all here and now, not elsewhere or some other time. A religion is what it's people make it, I don't care if you quote verses of incredible wisdom and kindness,I can quote just as many of the exact opposite type, and both are just as relevant in the minds of those who uphold them. In the middle ages the church was tyrannical, in Nazi Germany its was Nazi, now its against human progress, I don't care if some of their followers are decent people as long as they support their idiotic leaders, I don't care if a church does good, when a simple change of leadership can turn into a monstrosity.

Religion is power, a power wielded and shaped by humans, and those in power determine what it is, regardless of scripture and tenets. Religion is seen by the wise as false, by the masses as true and by the leaders as useful, and if you call yourself christian you are responsible for every christian asshole that makes this world less pleasant to live in because his book tells him he can.